@snilf , I am not sure what the criteria is for being an audiophile. I’ve got some equipment that, all things being relative, I don’t consider cheap. But I don’t think that, if I am an audiophile, it is my equipment that makes me one. If I do meet the criteria, I suppose it would be because of my desire (an obsessive desire at times) for a better reproduction of music from my system.
If being an audiophile was only dependent upon how much one’s gear cost, I am not sure where the bottom of the threshold would be. As I just typed, I don’t consider my stuff to be cheap, but compared to a member who I have read posts about his speakers that cost 30k (which is more $ than the entire system I am listening to) I guess my stuff would be considered cheap and I definitely would not be an audiophile. And if those were the parameters one needed to be within, that would probably eliminate a lot of members from the audiophile club.
However, although I don’t think that it is the price or quality of gear that makes one an audiophile, I also believe that the better the gear is--the better the sonic performance usually is.
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@snilf
And a correction, by the way. As my overlong narrative concludes, $4,000 is a more accurate estimate of what I paid for the components in my system than $3,000. I guess I should read my own words more carefully.
Sand bagging by over 30% were ya?! 😉😂
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So...am I an "audiophile," or not? Do I belong here, or not?
I know what you mean. On this site, forget anything you read about gear. Stick with the music. The best thing about this forum is the age of the participants.
Considering the current state of the art, $3000 is spot on. The state of the art can be found at the Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Polk, etc.... level. All else is hype and eye candy.
Do you belong here? Yes. But, think of it as being in the middle of the Pacific Ocean on a raft with no water.
Cheers
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What has changed is how people now interact after the advent of social media. It’s not limited to any one group or hobby. Our culture is now more about presenting a certain image online than actual discussion and substance. Don’t take it personally. Culture, morals, humility have all but faded away. It’s all about showing people what you have that they likely can’t afford now.
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What makes one an "audiophile" seems to have got stuck on how much one spends on audio equipment. I’ll grant, that’s certainly not irrelevant. But, as several have said (notably, mahgister, who sounds this theme regularly on this forum), the cost of one’s equipment is not the main criterion. Concern for sound quality is, however one strives to achieve that goal.
But my post was meant to raise issues with even that quest, which is why I wondered aloud, as it were, whether or not I belong on this forum. Yes, I care about and delight in sound quality! To that extent, obviously, I’m an audiophile. But my deeper concern is that such attention is really misplaced. Enjoying certain recordings, despite their being musically insipid, just because they are well recorded...well, now that strikes me as misguided (and I am guilty of it). Very few of the musicians I know care much at all about sound quality.
So I’m kind of conflicted. That’s where the Stewart Smalley comment strikes home. Get over it! Stop whining! Enjoy the music, or enjoy the sound quality of your system, or both—who cares! I get that.
The fact is that, although I have loved audio equipment most of my life, I haven’t been in a position to afford really good stuff until relatively recently. And, furthermore, the kind of conversations that dominate our audio club meetings, and this forum, I’m not really able to contribute much to. I just don’t know enough about the equipment that’s available, much less about the electrical engineering principles that goes into it. For me, it really is all about the music.
To say "it’s all about the music" is, of course, a commonplace among audiophiles. But this isn’t really a forum about music. The only threads about "the music" I’ve found interesting are those that suggest especially good-sounding recordings, not those that discuss matters of interpretation (in "classical" music) or those that share enthusiasms for this or that genre or artist.
Megabyte's comment is one of the things that worries me here...
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One key of being an audiophile is the objective. At least in my definition it is to recreate the real musical experience in all respects and in proportion. So, it is not to just create a spectacular sound system. Many people create very flashy sounding systems with great detail and bass but that completely loose the music. They over emphasize some aspects and miss others. This is really common, I have heard many. In the pursuit of one or more aspects the music gets left behind, they turn into a real sound spectacular. This is the equivalent of salt, sugar, and fat in food... like Lays barbecue potato chips... very tasty but lacking in nutrition and satisfaction as food.
Typically as these get better they loose the rhythm / pace and mid-range bloom. Which allows for incredible detail and kick drum that hits you in the chest, or imaging is holographic, but the music no longer has the emotional draw.
If you get bored listening to your system after 45 minutes or you tend to music surf if streaming ask yourself if you lost the music along the way.
I have had season tickets to the symphony for over ten years. This and other concerts helped me compare my system to the real thing. Over time mine conveyed a balanced and is a real close representation. So this experience really helped me keep things in proportion.
Sadly, on another note. We got a new conductor whom wanted to make his mark on the symphony. He had a multimillion dollar DSP system installed in the orchestra hall. Suddenly the violins sounded steely on the top, the drums sounded as if they came from behind me ( my seats were in the 7th row center). The triangle became a very noticeable instrument... like it had a solo. The music was very severely compromised...so it goes. My system now sounds better than the live orchestra.
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I know for a fact that acoustics knowledge matter more than gear price tags...
When you have a good balanced system you forgot the sound. Suddenly any musical album reveal his unique acoustic trade-off interesting choices and the music is well served so much you cannot stop listening the music not the sound.
How is it possible with a relatively low cost system as mine ? With acoustics basic applied among other factors...
I was accused to bash high end gear because of my claim😊 ... Complete misunderstanding who reveal the ignorance abyss put by marketing publicity in audio forums and magazine and in people head... I discovered it late in my life and recently and progressively all along my acoustics journey ... ( acoustics concepts are not room acoustic panels by the way )
No acoustics concepts and experiment will put a 100 bucks speaker on the same podium as 10,000 bucks one... Common sense and common place fact ... But acoustics will make possible an improvement in the limits of these different designs in an astounding way ... I am flabbergasted by acoustics not by the gear...
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Wow!
A very good example of acoustics ignorance coupled to gear fetichism ...
A.I. will replace our ears and Bach soon ...
A.I. is not a tool we are the tool of A.I. 😊
Sadly, on another note. We got a new conductor whom wanted to make his mark on the symphony. He had a multimillion dollar DSP system installed in the orchestra hall. Suddenly the violins sounded steely on the top, the drums sounded as if they came from behind me ( my seats were in the 7th row center). The triangle became a very noticeable instrument... like it had a solo. The music was very severely compromised...so it goes. My system now sounds better than the live orchestra.
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the cost of one’s equipment is not the main criterion. Concern for sound quality is, however one strives to achieve that goal.
Unfortunately, sound quality usually improves as the equipment improves, and as the equipment improves it unfortunately usually costs more. Sad but true.
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Considering the current state of the art, $3000 is spot on. The state of the art can be found at the Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Polk, etc.... level. All else is hype and eye candy.
How do you define state of the art?
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@immatthew “Unfortunately, sound quality usually improves as the equipment improves, and as the equipment improves it unfortunately usually costs more…”
+1
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You cannot know how good will sound your gear (nevermind his price ) BEFORE it was rightfully embedded in the three working dimensions : electrical,mechanical and acoustical...
Then repeating a useless common place fact which is trivial truth as the better we pay the better the design you miss the message and the lesson of acoustics learning and other basic knowledge because you put your attention on price tags ..
We buy what our budget can afford... But we cannot know the acoustics potential of a system/room BEFORE we learn how to adress it ...
Any piece of gear and more so a system in a room cannot give his potential optimal without adressing the basic...
The system before and after is not comparable at all... I dont care about his price...All designs act the same at their worst if nobody reduce the vibration/resonance problem , and sound the worst in bad electrical environment and RFI and worst cannot reveal their truest quality in a bad acoustic environment ...
price tags dont change basic knowledge ...
What is really sad but true is that most people dont know that and dont want to know because it ask for studying, experimenting and a lot of time to do it right...It is more easier to buy and plug and called it high end 😊 ... The price tags will be the proof our system is good enough... But it is not so simplistic... Sorry... Dont take it personal please we only discuss...This is my experience not just an argument ...
How a low cost system can sound so good and how some very costlier system sound so bad even if they could be way better than the low cost system? It is relative to the basic knowledge of the users ...
This has nothing to do with a claim as preposterous as my low cost system may rival high end... It cannot ... But it can sound very good... And the high end may not sound so good because it is not installed to work at his peak potential ... The reason is knowledge applied or not in the triple embeddings , not price ...
Unfortunately, sound quality usually improves as the equipment improves, and as the equipment improves it unfortunately usually costs more. Sad but true.
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@immatthewj someone commented “cue Stuart Smalley”. The OP wrote that the comment stung a bit. I responded that he should ignore them.
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Another sad fact: "Garbage in/garbage out." Garbage in an accoustically treated environment is still garbage.
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You are blessed with a family that loves music as much as you do. I would say that the money you have invested in your system seems to be all you need with the other aspects of your life as they are. It seems as if there are so many different opinions as to what makes a person an audiophile. So many are shaped and molded to meet the hopes and expectations of how each individual wants to present themselves. I wouldn't give this another thought.
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@immatthewj someone commented “cue Stuart Smalley”. The OP wrote that the comment stung a bit. I responded that he should ignore them.
Ah. Okay. I take it that the original Stuart Smiley comment had to do with positive affirmations about a system that did not cost a ton of money?
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@immatthewj either that or affirming that he belongs in this forum.
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This is another common-place fact which is often misleading in audio and which is used in dac marketing ...😊
Another sad fact: "Garbage in/garbage out." Garbage in an accoustically treated environment is still garbage.
What is the source?
It is not the dac nor the turntable as this "garbage in garbage out" sentence may suggest ...😊
Why ?
This sentence dont come from acoustics... It comes from the computer industry...
In audio then in acoustics, the source is the set of acoustics trade-off choices makes by the recording engineer, which your gear will convey in analog digital reproduction, these choices must be TRANSLATED through your system in the room for your ears... There is not a mere digital transport and reproduction here but a translation of acoustics information from an acoustic environment through another one using all gear pieces as a conveyor toward the speakers/room/ears ...
Then " garbage in garbage out" is not a so useful expression for describing the right or not so right acoustics translation from the live recording Hall into you room ...😁
Dac and turntable matter yes, for sure, but way less than the room/ears parameters controlled or not controlled ...
Anyway as demonstrated by Edgar Choueiri all stereo system are defective and must be corrected to give a TOP experience... This is an acoustics fact too ...
Acoustics science rule audio not software engineering ...
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Abracadabra: I mapman the magnificent golden eared musical enchanter, hereby decree: you are now an official audiophile!🪄🪄🪄🪄
Sim sala bim: Magjc happens here….Yee ha!
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The simple response is that yes, you should be part of this forum, and are critical to it’s viability since you are a music lover not afflicted with obsessions of an audiophiles persistent pursuit of achieving “absolute sound”. A music lover can listen to music on any system and be immersed in emotion the brings a tear as the soul it touched. This is the cornerstone to the foundation of being an audiophile To borrow from the writer Gibran from the prose poem The Prophet Section On Music to help better define this cornerstone:
Music is the quivering of a string, charged with waves from the upper air, it penetrates your hearing, its echo emerges from your eyes in a burning tear, and from your lips as they sigh for a beloved being far away, or it utters a moan caused by the string of history and the fangs of destiny.
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Making music sound more real and involving should not be seen as a character defect. I can lead to an addictive chase without end, or at least ending with the ole empty pockets. My experience has often been an increasing respect for the artist's efforts and the emotional involvement brought by more closely reproducing their intentions. I certainly wouldn't be an audiophile without being a music lover. What would be the point?
I am always reminded of the time in the early mornings waiting for the bus inside the hallway where we waited. The sound of Ben E King singing Stand by Me. And tuning that dial on my own little hand held radio so the station would come through better. Same thing.
As to the OP, you belong if you want to.
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@immatthewj
The 'Art' is reproducing recorded music. The best it can be done with electronic boxes, today, is very low on the price pole. The Marantz Yamaha thingy. The only thing we can DO, is to strive to perfectly get the info from source to the speaker. Compare output of source and input to speaker, it don't cost much.
Much more important is the room, speakers, and speaker position. Whenever I hear a system, the main thing I hear is the size of the room. In person or online. Its so obvious.
Cheers
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@jastralfu you are of course correct it’s cue not “que” and I knew that, not sure why I did that but whatever. To the op, I meant no disrespect by my comment and I apologize if it stung. I was only trying to inject a bit of light hearted humor into what looked to me as a troll post. The idea that anyone would want or need affirmation from other members of this community to tell them if they are an audiophile seemed rather ridiculous to me. That and the mention of fond memories of millercarbon (one of the biggest trolls ever) just made me think you were trolling.
So again my apologies to you sir. Btw you have a beautiful room and sure that you enjoy many hours of both listening and creating music. Hats off to you.
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Garbage out of speakers in an acoustically treated room is still garbage. However, in this context, ’garbage’ is a relative term.
To the OP’s topic:
Using "definition of audiophile" as a search engine seems to yield this definition (or the equivalent) from about all the hits that came back for me, "a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction."
To me that means that although someone who listens to a system consisting of significantly expensive electronics and speakers may find the sound of a system consisting of much cheaper gear to be (if they are being honest) garbage, the person listening to the more affordable system can still meet the criteria of an audiophile because the definition of enthusiasm is not dependent solely upon the quality the of gear (and therefor the SQ) one is listening to, but how critically one is listening and how appreciative one is to the actual SQ one is listening to.
However, one who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction will quite likely take steps as often as possible to increase the quality of his or her play back which will, among other things, include upgrading the quality of his or her gear. Some will be more obsessive than others in this endeavor.
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@chrshanl37
@Immathewj you are of course correct it’s cue not “que” and I knew that, not sure why I did that but whatever.
I believe you have mistaken me for someone else. I do not recall ever commenting upon that.
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The 'Art' is reproducing recorded music. The best it can be done with electronic boxes, today, is very low on the price pole. The Marantz Yamaha thingy.
@rok2id , in my experience there is equipment that reproduces music much better than equipment low on the price pole. I am going to leave it at that . . . except to say that I am not familiar with Yamaha's line of equipment but I know for a fact that some of Maranzt's equiment can get relatively expensive. Meaning that 'expensive' is another relative term. But to that point, would you consider the Maranzt SA10 SACDp to be expensive at around 7k msrp?
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@immatthewj
But to that point, would you consider the Maranzt SA10 SACDp to be expensive at around 7k msrp?
Absolutely! I have the SA8001. $899msrp. What is it about the SA10 that makes it worth 6100 more?
Full disclosure: My SA8001 failed after 18 years of service. Currently looking for a replacement. Probably the marantz CD6007. Finally giving up on SACD.
Cheers
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If you love your system, that is all that matters and enjoy.
Enjoy until you hear something that you feel sounds better.
That is when you have a choice to make.
Happy Listening.
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We need people like you. I often think about how wealthy this group is. However, I am not going to sucked to splitting hairs.
I wonder what happened to Miller Carbon. I believe he was banned for awhile and came back. I think he knows a tremendous amount and he belongs here.
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@dougsat Nailed it in my mind. I will add that any music played anyway makes me happier than I had been without it. Am I an audiophile? Don't care.
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@snilf ....if you've still doubts about self and your 'audio bent' (ignoring 'phile' and the connotations of such)....
You Belong. The fact that you've not only faced some slings 'n shots and hung in is one characteristic needed here.....
#2: You personally, and with the family, Play Music IRL. Light years ahead of many here....mho.
I don't sadly....don't have the muscle memory for the art....
@mapman ....OK, 'Wiz....since you've got your wand in hand, I'll take a Lotto win...pulease..... ;)
SOTA = What many of us can't rationalize...BUT it drags up the mid$ stuff in the long haul in my 50ish years (Class of '69: The only year worth a snicker....*L*)
I miss MCarbon to some degree; others that have left for 'other venues' or just the raw end of time.....as well. One can only hope that some do as well....
OP, I'd understand if some consider yours unruly as a troll-ish sort....
...it's the 'why and/or what for' that may confuse....
Don't forget to return, J ;)
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I was warned to leave this forum from the beginning. Hung around, learned, argued, tried to separate the wheat from the chaff. Developed a system for around 25,000 mostly used. Am very happy with it and the Sq. Now if I could get my wife on board. Main gripe here is sometimes inclusion of politics
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@snilf
Being on Agon is more than talking about equipment. I generally spend more time on the music threads than the equipment threads. Jazz, classic rock and classical music are 99% of what I listen to. Poke around, there’s a lot of diversity. Have some fun!
All the best.
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@snilf, to me, being an audiophile is your state of mind. It isn’t a currency threshold of your system. Interest in audio gear and seeking of related information is what drew everybody to this site so if you’re here then you belong.
Of course there are a lot of different forums to get information. When I resurrected my system in 2019 after a 15 year hiatus, I started a Facebook private hifi group to get information about gear and music. It has slowly grown to over 800 members. One of the unforeseen benefits to me has been the friendships I’ve developed with some of the people that have joined the group and YouTubers that I’ve shared their content on the group, also manufacturers and distributors.
You also have another positive thing going for you which is being a musician. Isn’t it great to not only appreciate the music and the gear but also be able to create music?! Once again, resurrecting my rig lead me to resurrecting my long lost love of playing the drums! I hadn’t played for 40 years! Another long story I won’t get into here.
The bottom line for me is: life is short, stretch to do everything your mind endeavors and enjoy the journey!
This philosophy has yielded enjoyable results for me. My main system is at a level that’s definitely high end. The 2nd system is vintage, except when I use my DAC/streamer in it. The vintage rig may be worth 1k or so. However, I enjoy and look forward to listening to it as much as the main rig.
I’m also making music again. I discovered that making music with other musicians is a passion that slightly exceeds my love of listening to my systems.
The Facebook group I created is named: HiFi and music media releases. Everyone is welcome to join, post and contribute information.
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@snilf
I'll do my best to save you the labor pains, and just give you the baby.
"Yes!"
Just because you don't own a turntable that appears to be robust enough to have machined WW2 bomber parts doesn't mean you can be a contributor.
My daily search for intelligent life on this planet often begins (and, ends) on this forum. I am rarely disappointed. I'm honored, and humbled when I am allowed to post something here and not have it taken down due to its absolute obscurity and lack of relevance to anything.
Now...about that dedicated/attached power cord on the NAD 7600 ....
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We were at a party last week and I was talking to my girlfriend’s uncle from FL who I just met. We were talking about music and my lady said " Steve’s an audiophile" I kind of just cringed... I thought , oh I hope this guy doesn’t think I’m a douche
I really didn’t want to talk about gear, just music.
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I too miss @millercarbon. And agree with @snilf that he was what I call a character. A great balance of bluster, knowledge and even humility when it came to admitting that he only knew what he liked. He also helped me in my audio journey. I will add that I read this forum much quicker than I used to. Yes very good info still here, but not as fertile as it once was. Thank you @erik_squires @mahgister and many others that escape me pre-coffee for your knowledge.
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@ghdprentice
The music was very severely compromised...so it goes.
Are you a Kurt Vonnegut fan?
That's too bad that the new conductor felt the need to change things so drastically, at least relative to what you liked.
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I’ve spent well over 3k on cables alone! 🙄
If your system @3k sounds good to you, then that is what matters. Pat yourself on your back for not falling into the proverbial rabbit hole.
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Acoustics science is the only efficient exorcism of the demon of consumerism conditioning...😊
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@jastralfu
I was wondering if anyone would get that.
Yeah, I think hearing natural, real instruments from an acoustically good hall will always trump unnatural steely processed sound. Kind of the point…
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You lost me at millercarbon.
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@snilf the # of responses to your post should indicate you belong on the forum. Lots of responses and opinions.
Are you an audiophile? Ask for the definition and you’ll likely get as many as you got responses to this post.
Based on your love of music and that you can make music with the talent you have playing instruments and the obvious interest you have in enjoying listing to recordings of songs, music, that checks a lot of audiophile boxes. The fact that you love music but you’ll still pick tracks that highlight your systems sound over music you already know, like, that’s for sure an audiophile thing, check. The time you have spent building out a network of fellow audiophiles, check. The price you paid for your gear is irrelevant, from the sounds of it you took advantage of opportunities that presented themselves, allowing you to collect some great gear that you love, with little expense, relative to the quality of the system, check. Money spent isn’t the precursor to being an audiophile.
The definition of what makes you an audiophile is subjective, just like comparing 2 sets of speakers, both can be incredible speakers, they’ll have a sound signature, if they are your speakers, the only person they need to sound good to, is you.
I’ve cycled through gear, spent way more than I would ever want to admit to someone who isn’t into this hobby, obsessed over the equipment I’ve bought, what I want to buy, had my family question my sanity more than a couple times. That doesn’t make me anymore or less of an Audiophile than you. What I think makes me one, since I was little, I always was really particular on how music sounded when I listened, I could hear differences others couldn’t or that didn’t matter to them. I’ve always wanted to find that perfect sound, to me. I’m still searching….
-
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OP, of course you belong here. Room would be pretty damn boring if it only had one kind of person in it
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I came to Agon without a working system. I don't have much selection in this town. I kept some stuff I got from my friend. Modified pro stuff. I started there. Also had some Klipsch RF3.
So I got lots of help here and reading around. I enjoy my system now. Any mistakes along the way were not major. I will not be changing anything unless I move to a smaller place. Yes, I stick around, whatever I am. I hope you do too.
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And yet...my system cost me less than $3,000 in total. I don’t lust after any particular "upgrade," even though I read reviews and all the many accounts of improvements in "SQ" documented in this forum.
So...am I an "audiophile," or not? Do I belong here, or not?
I’m listening right now to a wonderful bit of Mozart. I also love Tool. And Christy Moore. And Eva Cassidy. And so many others. I agree with Nietzsche: without music, life would be a mistake. But am I an audiophile? Do I belong on this forum?
Any sympathy here? Anyone else feel alienated from the "audiophile community" despite loving the miracle of audio technology?
Hmmm....I can really enjoy listening to a 100 dollar speaker on my deck. I can also enjoy listening a to 30k speaker in my listening room. But, since my 100 dollar speaker is so enjoyable, it didn't make the 30k speaker real stupid. I could give a rats-behind if some forum shrew thought i didn't belong because i am able to really enjoy a 100 dollar speaker.
Nevertheless, this is an enthusiast forum.
- Are you the type of troll who goes to some food enthusiast forum and says..."i'm very happy eating a wendy's sh-burger. Any sympathy for me?"
- Are you also the type of guy who goes to some car enthusiast muscle car forum and says..."I have a Pontiac Sunbird and it runs great, takes me from point A to point B, easy to fix. I don't wish for anything better. Any sympathy for me?"
In that manner, it kinda sounds like a trolly post. But, if it wasn't, why do you need some internet audio nerd's acceptance so badly?
Why don't you quit worrying about nothing and get better at playing your cello instead??
P.S.
Eva Cassidy? kinda boring...Tool? kinda untalented...Seems like you need better taste in music dude... Add that to the getting better at cello 'to do' list. 😑
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- Are you the type of troll who goes to some food enthusiast forum and says..."i’m very happy eating a wendy’s sh-burger. Any sympathy for me?"
it is very characteristic of trolling method too to use extreme comparison to disparage someone experience and stir a pot as you just did ...😁
I am here to socialize around sound and music interests ... The OP too ...
I think it is better to look less "smart" and suspicious and more empathic...
By the way it is not the OP who use 100 bucks speakers , it is myself , i heavily modify them thanks to Helmholtz observations... And i am perfectly happy with the balanced natural results... I feel more wise and creative than buying a costlier pair of speakers as such and plugging them in the wall , is it a problem for your refined "taste" ?
I dont like sarcasm aimed at other people expanse...
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I hate to say it but you probably don't belong here. For the first thing your stereo setup was WAY TO NEAT Where are the jumble of wires the size of fire hoses strewn all over the house? Where are the special power plugs "required" to provide pristine electricity to your components? Where are the snarky responses to your choices in music?
Look at who's here and who's not. I actually met with Chuck "Millercarbon" at his house for an extended listening sessions. I mean I was there all day. He fed me, talked music with me and actually demonstrated the sound difference power cables made. He took his speaker wires off of the lifters while the song was playing so I could and did hear the affect they had on the overall sound. He hosted a meet with whole bunch of other hobbyists and we spent the day totally immersed in the hobby. If he doesn't "belong here" who does?
Like Chuck you appear to be willing to enjoy your system and wish to talk about it. I'm not sure that kind of talk is appreciated here so yeah maybe you don't belong. As for being an AudioPhile If you break the word into it's components
Audio: As pertaining to sound
Phile: An affinity for something
It looks to me that you fit the description but apparently that doesn't mean you should be a part of this forum.
Cheers and you're doing better than me as I had to look up who Stuart Smiley was.
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For all of us concerned the first definition of individual stupidity was given by Carlo Cippola an italian economist read attentively his laws and pay attention to the third one :
«
These are Cipolla’s five fundamental laws of stupidity:
- Always and inevitably, everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
- The probability that a certain person (will) be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
- A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
- Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular, non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places, and under any circumstances, to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
- A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.
Corollary: a stupid person is more dangerous than a pillager.
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