Am I right for this forum?
I’ve been an Audiogon member for some years now; I remember (fondly) "millercarbon," for example, which will mean something to some of you. And I’ve been a lover of audio equipment since high school—so, for over 50 years (I graduated in 1973). And yet...more and more, I find myself alienated from this forum, even though I do still read it regularly.
I do have what I consider a very "high-fidelity" system. I’ve written a very long account of my "audio journey," complete with many photos, but not "published" it on this site. I’m also a member of our local audio club, which includes several very well-heeled members who have systems costing more than most homes (one of them owns equipment valued at nearly a million dollars, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg: his system is housed in a separate structure purpose-built for it that cost well over a million). I play cello and guitar; my wife plays piano, my daughter piano and violin. We play those instruments in the same room occupied by my main audio system, and so I can attest to the "fidelity" of that system’s reproduction.
And yet...my system cost me less than $3,000 in total. I don’t lust after any particular "upgrade," even though I read reviews and all the many accounts of improvements in "SQ" documented in this forum.
So...am I an "audiophile," or not? Do I belong here, or not?
I’m listening right now to a wonderful bit of Mozart. I also love Tool. And Christy Moore. And Eva Cassidy. And so many others. I agree with Nietzsche: without music, life would be a mistake. But am I an audiophile? Do I belong on this forum?
Any sympathy here? Anyone else feel alienated from the "audiophile community" despite loving the miracle of audio technology?
Some serious soul searching here, at least it sounds like it. Enjoy what you have don’t worry about anyone else and their high dollar systems. If someone can afford a million dollar system sure why not. I bet your system sounds really good and you didn’t even mention what you have. Life is too short. The simple pleasures in life are some of the best. If reading audio threads leave you cold by all means take a break from them.
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I started my music journey listening to a mono table top radio in the basement, for well under $30. It took me at least 30 years to get above $3,000. But it's the music I heard on that mono set that counted. The music is still number one, and in your case it's Eva, Christy and Mozart that counts. I never listened to Tool, but will try it out. Stay around, even if it's just for the music. |
"So...am I an "audiophile," or not? Do I belong here, or not?" Yes! You do belong here! Are you a music lover or an audiophile? This is a question that many people ask themselves, but what is the difference between the two? And do you need to buy expensive audio gear to be a music lover? Is an audiophile a music lover? Is a music lover an audiophile? Do you need to be an audiophile to be a music lover vice versa? In this blog post, I will try to answer these questions from a music lover perspective, and share some facts and figures about the audio world. I hope you will find this post informative, inclusive, and easy to read!
First of all, let me define what I mean by a music lover and an audiophile. A music lover is someone who enjoys listening to music, regardless of the genre, format, or quality. A music lover may have a preference for certain types of music, but they are open to discovering new artists and styles. A music lover may also have a basic or modest audio system at home, or use headphones or earbuds to listen to music on the go. A music lover’s main goal is to enjoy the music itself and the emotions it evokes.
An audiophile, on the other hand, is someone who cares about the technical quality of the audio experience. An audiophile may have a preference for certain genres of music, but they are more interested in how the music sounds than what it means. An audiophile may also have a sophisticated or expensive audio system at home, or use high-end headphones or earphones to listen to music on the go. An audiophile’s main goal is to achieve the highest fidelity possible, and to hear every detail and nuance of the music.
According to a survey conducted by Groove Patterns, 63% of respondents identified themselves as music lovers, 25% as audiophiles, and 12% as both. The survey also found that audiophiles tend to spend more money on audio equipment than music lovers, and that they are more likely to listen to lossless or high-resolution formats than music lovers. However, the survey also revealed that both groups share a passion for music and that they can learn from each other.
So, do you need to buy expensive audio gear to be a music lover? The answer is no. You can enjoy music with any device or system that suits your budget and lifestyle. Of course, if you want to improve your sound quality, you can invest in better audio gear, but you don’t have to break the bank to do so. There are many affordable options on the market that can deliver great sound for less money. For example, you can buy a pair of decent headphones for under $100, or a Bluetooth speaker for under $50.
Is an audiophile a music lover? The answer is yes. An audiophile may have different priorities and preferences than a music lover, but they still love music. They just want to hear it in the best way possible. An audiophile may also appreciate aspects of music that a music lover may overlook, such as the production, mixing, mastering, or recording techniques. An audiophile may also have a deeper knowledge of audio technology and terminology than a music lover.
Is a music lover an audiophile? The answer is maybe. A music lover may not care about the technical quality of the audio experience as much as an audiophile, but they may still appreciate good sound when they hear it. A music lover may also be curious about how audio gear works and how it affects the sound of music. A music lover may also be willing to try new formats or genres of music that an audiophile may recommend.
Do you need to be an audiophile to be a music lover vice versa? The answer is no. You can be either one or both, depending on your personal taste and interest. There is no right or wrong way to enjoy music, as long as you respect other people’s choices and opinions. You can also learn from each other and discover new things about music and audio.
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^This. Given your trained ear and experience with live instruments in your living, we should be listening to YOU for recommendations on gear. So to answer your question, yes you belong. |
By the loose definition that most of us have in our heads, I'd say that you are not what we would consider an audiophile, but I think that is refreshing, and the very reason why you do belong on this forum. You are a music lover, not one who chews their nails in bed at night wondering if they bought the right resistors for their crossovver upgrade. We need more like you to keep us grounded. Don't go anywhere. |
@roxy54 he is way more of an audiophile than I am. He is into the technical aspects, he cares about it and knows more about music than most. |
I beat you... None of my two system in their didicated room cost me more than 1000 bucks...😁 It sound so great i dont need any upgrade... ( all my gear is modified by me especially the speakers and headphone ) I could upgrade ( not a minor change ) from 1000 to 10,000 ... But i dont want to argue with my wife and anyway i dont feel any real lack in S.Q.
Creativity is the real audiophile tag and basic knowledge .... Not gear price tag ... As you know already...😊 Then if you are not at home here nobody can be either ... My only claim to be here is the fact i know how to create one of the best possible system at the lowest price...This was my starting goal... It is enough reason for me... S.Q. is mandatory for me but i listen music 5 hours each day, not my gear which erase itself now behind music... That was my goal at the end... Acoustics science rule audio not price tags...
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You sound like a music lover to me. The definition of an audiophile that I picked up about fifty years ago was someone who is a fanatic to reproduce natural musical sound possible at any cost. It is a disease that results in spending an unbelievable proportion of disposable time and income. Another, the audiophiles system cost more than his car (s). My system has always cost more than the aggregate new cost of my two cars (now two, when young, one). So, no, you are not an audiophile. You are a music lover. You do not have the disease.
Audiophile is about being a fanatic… a bit like having gold fever.
There are lots of other terms like high fi enthusiasts, hobbies. But when it is a major driving force and financial drain… your friends might whisper about “your problem”. You spend the equivalent of six months groceries in a piece of wire “because it makes your system sound better”. You are borderline nuts… that is an audiophile. Your family is thinking about a ten step program and an intervention. You spend an hour on Audiogon forum every day. |
@roxy54 I wasn't implying you criticized him but I was wondering how he is not an audiophile in your eye or anyone's. And yes I know it's not club or degree, I don't cry because I find myself less of an audiophile than the next guy. If I had 3K, I would spend it much more wisely now than I did (roughly my current system) way back when. But this is always a subject here, where does an audiophile system starts? I think it's when you are changing it and hearing the difference, and you have a smirk on your face, you are already an audiophile. |
There is not on one side : music lovers... And on the other side : audiophiles...
I know because i always were an audiophile but i did not have the money to become one all along my life...( i erroneously thought all my life that it takes money to be one really ) 😁 Then i retired...😊 With 7 day on 7 for my hobby... Now i begun to learn HOW to create an audiophile system starting with basic synergetical pieces of gear from the ground up... Then i had to read about acoustics, make experiments and create my own tweaks too... I called this journey : embeddings devices control of the mechanical,electrical and especially acoustical working dimensions...
Then to keep it short: There is only ignorant audiophile who look at price tags for upgrades and learning and learned audiophiles who create their own audiophile realm with acoustics experiments .. We are all music lovers... (Some are more experienced with music of all the earth cultures as i am thats all ) ( acoustics with and (s) is a noun not an adjective then do not refer to room acoustic only i modify my speakers with acoustics knowledge not merely with room acoustic experience )
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Cost is not a great indicator of sound quality, and sound quality is highly subjective. It sounds like you’ve been around plenty of true high end sound, and know what music sounds like, so you have some advantages that many don’t even realize they don’t possess! Technology continues to improve, but there’s still a great deal of "art" involved with putting together a system....whether we can prove it not, or have a well paid review to back an opinion. My system isn’t modern, fancy, or trendy at all, and I often feel less than worthy in many discussions, but I know it sounds extremely good. (at least by my own standards) The internet poses some interesting personality dynamics that may or may not correlate in real life. No worries if your online (or real life) personality simply puts you in the category of being quiet, patient, or an unobtrusive human being who’s not used to tooting his own horn publicly. Many folks may not type particularly well, and/or grew up in a much less socially confrontational environment. Many could very well be extremely gifted audio enthusiasts with outstanding systems that have been built over many years, but are simply not comfortable arguing a point online with people that can’t be seen, hear, or read personally, and have no idea of what their audio experience or abilities are. Some people are just more aggressive online, and lean towards being cyber bullies IMHO, especially about audio. Yes, you belong! |
Your relative investment is an indicator of dedication, but not the only one. I have known people that do not have large incomes but are fanatical about sound reproduction and dedicate enormous effort to achieving the best possible sound. They are as well.
On the other hand I know quite a few people that have huge investments in audio equipment and yet are definitely not audiophiles. It is a pursuit… something to do. Something to show off, to help them set them apart. Not a driving force and major source of joy. For most audiophiles, no one but family and close friends even know they are. Typically it is a solitary pursuit. But it has become “popular”.
But then I remember the term has always been controversial. I would be occasionally asked what other interests I had and I would respond I have an audio problem… the response would be oh, my husband or brother is an audiophile also… he has a Bose system. My blood pressure would rise and I had to contain anger and frustration… and not blurt out “that is not even remotely an audiophile system, that is a marketing scam”… and say, that’s nice. On the other hand, English is a living language, maybe the definition is now much more all encompassing.
Should you be on Audiogon. If you enjoy it. |
Thanks to so many for so much encouragement—even to chrshanl37 for comparing my post to Stewart Smalley (ouch! but point taken). The general, and reasonable, consensus seems to be that "music lover" and "audiophile" are not synonymous, but not mutually exclusive either. Of course, that's true. And, despite the fact that I don't suffer from the kind of intervention-demanding fanaticism described by ghdprentice, I do consider myself an audiophile. You probably know the snide definition attributed to Allan Parsons: "Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment." Like the comment about Stewart Smalley, that stings a bit—because I often enough choose what I want to hear for the recording quality rather than the performance quality or even the music's own intrinsic quality. I mean, I do have recordings that sound great on my system but are insipid musically, and I do periodically listen to them. That is to say, I find it thrilling that a technology can reproduce something like a symphony orchestra in my living room with astonishingly convincing realism. Never mind the music; that fact is compelling in its own right. Finally, though, the music is what matters. But musical taste is very personal, and not frankly all that easy to share even with close friends. This forum, it seems to me, rarely is interesting when the music itself is at issue. And that makes sense, when you think about it. We have very different backgrounds, different levels of musical knowledge, and different tastes in music—but we all love good sound quality. Of course, even there, taste counts for a lot. But still, more expensive equipment does, usually, sound better, "system synergy" is a thing that needs to be learned, and inexpensive tweaks can sometimes bring very satisfying results. That's what I come to this forum for more than anything else: advice on ways I can improve my sound quality without spending a lot. Anyway, thanks for the (mostly) friendly responses here. In case anyone's interested, I'm going to make my "virtual system" public now. |
I ferociously discussed against many Millercarbon idea by the way and i never hated him... Then i dont understand people hate toward anyone... Being annoyed by someone ideas i understand that 😁but hate ? After all these years ? Anyway i like people and discussions...😊 This sentence make then perfect sense to me ... Why using this impressions of someone as a motive of rejecting his post ? Think about that ...
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Dont display ignorance in full view by repeating common place useless fact and classification... Someone with a handbook of acoustics and a low- fi system know more than a dude with a 100,000 bucks sound system in his living room and no book ...😁
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@snilf nice house, nice system(s). I won’t sugar coat this but I find your post very unusual and even more unusual the millercarbon “name dropping”. I see several of your earlier posts and responses so that kind of makes me think you consider yourself to be an audiophile and obviously you’re a music lover as well since you’ve been an active member here contributing on a forums. |
Why suspecting the OP of trolling ? He explained well his experiences and his impressions and propose to publish his virtual system page...😊 For me trolls are mostly and essentially harassing people...And are people of bad faith ... With backthoughts... If not, many people who may ask candid question about cables, tweaks,measurements, products, people will be accused of trolling especially by someone who will not like the cables,tweaks, measurements,products or people named etc... Then i am not lost at all seeing the sincerity of the OP.... I always suppose to begin with here on audiogon that people act on good faith ... Why acting otherwise?
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He spoke about the price of his main system not about all the gear pieces he ever bought... Why so much people accuse others of trolling pass over my mind ... 😊
A troll throw some posts to upset people... But other troll feign to be upset to induce upsetting discussions... Then we must spoke to one another in good faith without throwing useless accusation when there is no sign of harassment in the post history of the person...😊 If we exclude harassment from the trolling description , any provocative post will suffice to condemn anyone... We must kept humor and open mind no ?
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this is, with all the info, a provocative post, to some degree. Nothing wrong with that, a lot of good discussions start with overstating facts or opinions in order to force people to take sides and voice their opposition. What’s disturbing to me about this post is that asks for sympathy for reasons that now have vanished.
- are your feelings hurt, who alienated you? Stirring the pot (a million dollar system sounds worse than my 3K system) gets so old so quickly.
And I don’t mean this to upset the poster, it’s just my subjective read, my thoughts on his thoughts.... no harm done.
Also:
We know that if it costs less than your car it's not hifi :) |
I sympathize with the OP on his feelings here. My interest in audio and gear has always been high. Much like in the sixties and the dawn of the muscle car era. Fond memories of lusting after the content of Car & Driver before I even had a driver's license. Or being in the military during the Viet Nam era and hearing about all the (then) high end Asian audio gear that people were bringing home. My issue was always trying to control my desires for buying stuff I really couldn't afford. Interestingly, now in my "golden" years, I can afford at least the lower end of audiophile grade gear, but I don't want to. I too am a half-fast musician. I have more tied up in my two Martin guitars than my audio/visual system. I'm not into home theater but do have my TV hooked into my two channel system. I'm truly happy with what I have and am totally uninterested in jumping on the wire, cable and fuse bandwagon. There in the point of this diatribe. My entire system is probably under $7k, all in. There are some who dwell here that denigrate what I have but most are cordial and some are great sources of information. That is the main reason I lurk here. I do find myself feeling like Sheldon on "Big Bang" when he goes into contortions trying to control his tongue. Usually when the discussion devolve into mudslinging about cables, fuses or whatever. Carry on. I guess I'm done for now. |
Of course you belong as much as anyone else does. I would ignore the Stuart Smalley comments. There seem to be a few folks on here who like to type things they would likely not say to someone's face (at least I hope not). By the way @chrshanl37 it's cue. Que is not an English word and queue does not apply. If you're going to be impish at least get the spelling correct (and yes I would say that directly to you 😀). |
Often, an audiophile is someone who plays music to listen to their system. You, on the other hand, appear to play your system to hear the music. Congratulations! I have often noticed that my most musically engaged friends (those that are actually musicians), can always hear and enjoy the music regardless of the SQ. How I envy them! Unfortunately, I am an audiophiliac, too dependent upon SQ for my pleasure. I would switch ears with you at the drop of a stylus... Enjoy!
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the way the OP is written, the follow up system pictures that don’t align with the info provided originally, the meaningless, as far as context is concerned, mention of millercarbon, the claims of feeling alienated, the mention of million dollar system in a million a million dollar dedicated structure…the whole thing smells like trolling. It’s designed to cause a stir. And he accomplished it by the way. Deserves a credit for putting this together so masterfully, no doubt.
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Wow. I had not anticipated that posting my Virtual System would result in accusations of being a troll. If grislybutter had read the (admittedly excessively long) narrative, he'd know that the many speakers in the photos were mostly borrowed, and those I own were bought used for a song from friends. As mahgister correctly points out, the quote of "$3,000" applies to my main system, which is very clearly laid out in that same narrative. Don't we all take whatever opportunity we can to compare what we already have to what might perhaps take our systems up a notch? Am I a "troll" because I have friends who are also fond of audio equipment and are willing to loan me things to try in my own home? As the kids say: whatever. As for looking for "sympathy," the word means something like "fellow feeling" (in German, "mitgefühl," literally "feeling-with"). I'm not looking for pity! I'm wondering if others on this forum find themselves conflicted by the tension that surely exists between a love of music, and a love of music reproduction (that is, a love of the technology that makes listening to recorded music such a close approximation of hearing it live). Several have made comparisons to their love of performance cars—another thing I get. But the same tension is evident there. Do you love your car because of its 0-60 time, or it's Nurburgring standing, or because you actually drive it to its limit yourself, and appreciate viscerally what the numbers signify? The latter is analogous to a love of music, the former to (pure) audiophilia. So, since my motives for this post have been questioned, let me clarify. I do love audio equipment for its own sake. I have for more than 50 years. But...the equipment is ultimately a tool that enables us to hear great music with as little compromise as possible. Speaking for myself, I feel I often lose sight of that; worse, that this site encourages loosing sight of that. So maybe I don't belong here—even though I do love audio equipment in its own right. This has, in any case, been an interesting experiment in communication. Once again, thank you to those who have been generous and welcoming, despite my reservations and the possible ambiguity of my motives. |
I think you had overthought all this...😁 But i am very "naive" in public contact i concede this as a fact and my unability to catch subtleties in English speech... But i only gave my opinion for the sake of an audiogon good social health.. 😊 And i prefer to welcome people than suspecting them... It is my nature ... a defect in some case i concede it ...
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I hope you will participate because we need informed people and you appear one... Then not only i welcome you but i hope for more exhanges... We are not all defiant people... Trust is basic in human communication ..
By the way i beat you... My system is balanced and cost me 1000 bucks ( heavily modified though ) 😉
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The above was posted before I had a chance to read the response from audphile1. Yes, you are "overthinking this" if you think my post was "designed to cause a stir" or smells of trolling. I've just explained how the "follow up pictures" DO, in fact, align with what I'd originally said. I'm fortunate to have friends that share this audiophile passion, and who have been generous both in loaning me things and selling me things. My "reference system" cost me less than $3,000. That's a fact. I'm sorry if you have not been so successful in your system building. The take-away for me from this attempt to engage in a frank conversation about our supposedly common audio passion has more, sadly, to do with the contentious nature of dialog these days than it does with the specific topic. Oh, and about millercarbon. He was something of a troll, I'll grant. Arrogant, in your face—but well-informed, articulate, and helpful with particular problems if one contacted him privately. His posts, infuriating as they often were (and that Einstein thumbnail was just puerile), were almost always interesting and informative. And witty. He was the main reason I joined this forum, even though we almost never agreed. For what it's worth, that's what I think genuine dialog should be: the ability to appreciate someone with radically different politics and worldview than one's own, and to engage productively with such a person in constructive exchanges of ideas anyway. |
I started to read your system description but I admit, it was too long for the moment. I don't think there is a lot of drama to be found here (in this post and in general), my 2 cents: you can't appreciate the peak, if you are dropped there with a helicopter. You have to climb the mountain. Some people here were dropped by a helicopter and have no prospective and don't understand the climb. But it's easy to not get hung up on it and ignore them. Most members here have expensive systems and worked very hard to buy the components and make it work, so I do think it's easy to find like-minded people for anyone. The spoiled rich kids with the TIdals don't post here anyway.
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audphile1 no harm done, no offense taken. Farts happen.And a correction, by the way. As my overlong narrative concludes, $4,000 is a more accurate estimate of what I paid for the components in my system than $3,000. I guess I should read my own words more carefully. |
@immatthewj - Stuart Smalley was a character on Saturday Night Live in days gone by.... |
@larsman , I vaguely remember that character . . . wasn't Al Franken the one who portrayed him? What I was wondering was how Stuart Smalley got into the conversation?
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I find it dubious to presume any person other than themselves is best equipped to determine whether they “belong” somewhere. I’ll tack on the end here that I have very much experienced the problem of going from, “I love music (end of story)” to, “I love music but now I’m spending the vast majority of the listening time fretting over fidelity-related minutiae” (the latter being to the great detriment to the former). |
Al Franken indeed did Stuart Smalley. The Michael Jordan episode of “Daily Affirmations with Stuart Smalley” is a gem (“repeat after me…‘I don’t have to…dribble the ball fast, or…throw the ball into the basket…’”). |
