I’ve been an Audiogon member for some years now; I remember (fondly) "millercarbon," for example, which will mean something to some of you. And I’ve been a lover of audio equipment since high school—so, for over 50 years (I graduated in 1973). And yet...more and more, I find myself alienated from this forum, even though I do still read it regularly.
I do have what I consider a very "high-fidelity" system. I’ve written a very long account of my "audio journey," complete with many photos, but not "published" it on this site. I’m also a member of our local audio club, which includes several very well-heeled members who have systems costing more than most homes (one of them owns equipment valued at nearly a million dollars, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg: his system is housed in a separate structure purpose-built for it that cost well over a million). I play cello and guitar; my wife plays piano, my daughter piano and violin. We play those instruments in the same room occupied by my main audio system, and so I can attest to the "fidelity" of that system’s reproduction.
And yet...my system cost me less than $3,000 in total. I don’t lust after any particular "upgrade," even though I read reviews and all the many accounts of improvements in "SQ" documented in this forum.
So...am I an "audiophile," or not? Do I belong here, or not?
I’m listening right now to a wonderful bit of Mozart. I also love Tool. And Christy Moore. And Eva Cassidy. And so many others. I agree with Nietzsche: without music, life would be a mistake. But am I an audiophile? Do I belong on this forum?
Any sympathy here? Anyone else feel alienated from the "audiophile community" despite loving the miracle of audio technology?
@snilf I hope enough has been offered as replies to leave you not feeling alienated.
Firstly the Term High Fidelity has never been a intention of a Design, it was first used Coined as a Phrase, in the 1950's, where it was inclusive of a Advertising Spiel for a Product.
As a Phrase to day it is quite corrupted and broad in meaning.
Audiophile is also claimed to be first Coined as Phrase in the 1950's, which pretty much relates to being enthusiastic about recorded music and the methods/tools required to achieve the end sound.
It does seem, the Term Audiophile appeared close to 100 years later than it could have been first used. As Thomas Edison had a Tool Produced to achieve this with similar ease to what is experienced to date.
"Thomas Edison was catapulted to international fame with his 1877 invention of the phonograph—a machine that recorded and played back anything that it “heard.” But Edison was not the first person to record sound. That honor goes to Edouard-Léon Scott de Martinville, a French inventor who in 1857 devised his phonautograph—a machine that inscribed the vibrations of airborne sounds onto a permanent medium."
From my end an Audiophile is an enthusiast, but one with a co-joined interest.
There is not an equal balance to the co-joined elements, the Interest in Recorded Music Replay and the Tools to achieve very very rarely share Parity.
Some Individuals can only see their Value to being Labeled and Audiophile if their interest is dominated by the equipment, both Cost of Equipment, along with ideas about accuracy of a electronic design are the interest.
Additionally, if one is to be made feel uncomfortable in a Public Domain, there is a lot of evidence to suggest those afflicted with having their thoughts dominated by the equipment, are usually the main contributors.
Thankfully there is also a healthy Contingent of individuals to be found in a Public Domain, who do have a genuine desire to experience recorded music being replayed, and the end goal is to achieve a replay only.
I have no doubts there is within the group who desire to experience recorded music being replayed, a selection who do concern themselves with the ideas of how to refine the sound they are experiencing, but these types are seemingly much more protected from developing Obsessional thoughts, as the enjoyment of the music replays is seeming a natural protection against becoming dysfunctional.
As yourself and Family are musicians possibly first, find enjoyment using recorded music possibly second and have the interest in the tools to replay the recorded music as a third place. This all sounds from my end very grounded and welcome to be part of a Audio Discussion Community.
Being an Audiophile is not all ego through ownership of the so called 'Best' and being a conceited know all of what is Best.
Being an Audiophile is being balanced as an individual across all things that are related to creating a replay of recorded music.
I do believe the OP is a close to true description of being an Audiophile, I also believe the OP is Balanced in their interest of achieving replays of recorded music.
The 'Gon' as a Public Domain needs plenty of these true, balanced, types to keep it real.
Having spent less than $3k on you main system sounds more like bragging about being a good bargain hunter. I tend to do that too. What's the retail price?
If you are happy with your system, if the sound fills you with passion and immerses you in the joy or sadness of the music and you want to keep listening to it all the time without getting fatigued and have to pull yourself away from it when responsibilities call I’d say you have a great system that for you can’t be bettered.
So yes you belong here if you are interested in other people’s systems and their thoughts on how it reproduces the music they love. If not you have your answer.
By the way what are your thoughts when you go to hear other people's much more expensive systems which are being proudly displayed and then going home to listen to yours?
@whartHey Bill…. Serious ? Yes but cross examination would demand I identify as a music lover who appreciates Kaizen in recorded sound. I could abandon ALL the gizmos when I get ( maybe ) to heaven…. until such time, can you help me book Natalie Merchant into my Condo this evening ? :-)
@asvjerryWhaaaat ? i challenge you to a duel ! Nerf cannons at 10 m, winner take all the NOS Telefunken or DECCA…. don’t counteroffer with a string of 1’s and 0’s.
FWIW, I composed a LONG reply to these very many responses to my original message—but something was wrong with my account status when I tried to post it, I went to my account to fix the problem, and lost the entire thing. Took me well over an hour, and I’m kind of busy with other things right now, so I didn't try to re-write it. Of course, I contacted the admin to see if it could be recovered, but it couldn’t; a glitch of some kind on their end, apparently.
Anyway...I will again make my Virtual System public. It was for a few days, then I hid it again. But emergingsoul asked, as did someone else a couple of pages back, so what the heck. BTW, emergingsoul: I wish I had "a very calm soul" (Leonard Cohen wishes for the same in his next life; I forget which song). But you’re right about not having a TV where my main system is, and where our instruments are played. We’re lucky to have a separate room (a "media room" and library) for the TV—and a second audio system there.
So we both have something in common. We don’t feel we belong and we have not posted our virtual system.
I recently described my system but no pictures.
It’s really cool you and your family Play piano. And then you play cello so that means you have a very calm soul. I’m guessing you don’t have a TV set in your listening room. Not sure you’re listening to YouTube very much. I find it absolutely remarkable how much stuff is there and the sound Quality can be very good
So does this mean someone’s playing a piano all the time in your house because everybody’s got to practice a little here and there. I played trumpet when I was younger and how awful that must’ve been to listen to when I practised.
Anyway I think you should post your system since you have all these glorious pictures you speak about. Time to immortalize your existence. You will be in great company.
It didn’t take me long to realize that, in the 4 years I’m been coming to this forum, there is a wide range of money spent on one system versus another. As the old saying goes, “One person’s ceiling is another person’s floor”, or they don’t even live on adjacent floors! Also, some have been at this for decades and sampled many pieces of equipment. This is especially evident when someone asks for recommendations and people respond with equipment names (let alone models) that I have never heard of.
I know that my knowledge is very limited, so I end up reading, or skinning through the comments, hoping to learn a bit and knowing I cannot be much help to the OP. I still come here to read, but I’m less inclined to post because I don’t think I can offer much compared to other members.
A smart $3,000 system is superior to a dumb $30,000 system. Or certainly an even more obtuse 300k stack of gear with cryo everything but bad speaker placement. In this hobby.. these scenarios are easily entirely possible (especially if you're listening in a normal sized room).
If you can see through the nonsense and still enjoy music via your system.. 'Bob' is your proverbial uncle. My speakers are 25 years old.. I've an amp I still listen to a lot that's 30yo (and they both were considered budget gear back then). The rewarding challenge is getting more by spending less.. buying used.. seeing though all the metaphorical superfluous cosmetic veneer. This isn't politics.. it's about helping us all find our way and enjoying ourselves without going broke.
if that resonates.. chime in.. don't worry about it.
Remember, this stuff is all subjective and many of the members like the one you mentioned either have left or passed away, don't have any statistics just an educated guess. Email them to see what you can find out. Maybe the ones that left some have grown tired of the constant upgrade path and others are just content with what they have. Regardless, I can't imagine any true audiophiles not wanting to stay connected to Audiogon and talk about their favorite hobby.
Cost does not matter. What makes you happy matters. I always looked for gear that would make me listen to music more. Some gear sounded nice, but for some reason I ended turning it off after couple of hours. Eventually I built system I can be listening to for hours. I don’t care if it has ’flat’ frequency response or sounds ’neutral’ or ’warm’ or resolves last possible detail. It sounds great to ME with music I prefer.
Having said that, all local high end dealers hate me since my criteria make them cringe. They told me to change music I listen to since their $$$ gear did not play it well. Seriously LMAO.
@uncledemp....Oh, I dunno, UncaDee *tease* I don’t think the various levels of ’density’, or for that matter, ’xtremisms’ are that much greater than the general pop.
For all the pixel space I turned to waste ’round here, no entity has yet to mention meeting outside ’wherever’ for the ’back2back/10/turn/Suvive’ routine.
If challenged I demand the choice of armament.
Surgical tubing rubber bands
Best you can do is bury the combatant with them. ;)
@brev... No entrance fee, no bribes. no bouncers....well, not obvious ones on the 1st, none would seem to work on the 2nd (but no party hinting at any, either).
As for the 3rd.... getting a post of yours ’bounced off’ is the most typical, getting blocked from and off the ’Gon will require you to have to ’work at it’ and raise your own rabble to root you out.
How much you’ve spent on equipment is really up to you. If you’re one that feels ’something’ in your Camery when a lot-new mid-engine Stingray is in the next lane, it’ll help to have a thick-enough ’skin’ when names and numbers are shuttlecocked (ref. = badminton) about....
Current ’seat of the pants’ on mine? 3K$ if I really strung it out. Some bought new, most used (7~8/10), the rest my DIY, this ’n that....
Buy it all new, capable of doing what it does now? Given advances but similar....
’Bout....bottom of 10K$...given how I shop for such.
One can easily, in this audio ’endeavor’, it’d be easy to tack another ’0’ left of the comma...
...but I don’t suffer from appliance envy...Oh, for sure, I’d pref a Lotus over the ’vette...and potentially cheaper trills as well... ;)
But, here.....Run whatcha’ brought.....Music over the Means, afterall....
They idolized the gear branded name which they "tastes"...
Or they idolized what they measured despising the other group...
I trust acoustics concepts and experiments over the price tags of the gear or over the price tags of the measuring tools...
i can bought anything relatively good and relatively low price and make it sound at his peak potential which level is perhaps not the best there is but is better than most can even imagine because they had no idea what acoustics means... 😊
i am audiophile as any acoustician is : with a relatively modest system working at his best in the best room ...
A very complex question disguised as a simple query. Makes me wonder whether the 'audiophile club' has an entrance fee. If so, exactly what amount of money spent on audio equipment is necessary to become part of the club? Is there an absolute number or is it relative to the viewer? A non-audiophile friend of mine cannot imagine spending more than a couple hundred dollars on anything audio related. She tolerates sound quality can make me cry. I would say that she does not belong here. It would be a horrifying experience for her. On the other hand, I doubt you judge others for their Hi-Fi expenses and can probably appreciate the thoughts of those who spend tens of thousands of dollars. As pure entertainment if nothing else. That's basically the boat I'm in. I replaced a pair of 41-year-old broken down speakers with 20-year-old speakers I bought for $900. My current amplifier and turntable cost me around $700. Back in 1981. Which makes me wonder whether it's the total cost of gear needed to get into the club or how much we spend on gear per year or $/total years in the hobby. So, a very complex question!
On the other hand, I don't think whether you stay here or not depends on money spent at all. The question as I see it is whether you get value from being here and also whether you feel you give value to others. From the number of responses to your thread, I think the answer is obvious.
@deep_333 ....I’ve refrained from posting pics since imho most would be bored and unimpressed.... ’SOTA’ only in the State Of That Affordable v. Stuff Of Transient Admiration. ;)
Due to changes, the space occupied by it, me, and the speaker array has been shrinking due to growth in our company.
Since we’ve a ’live/work’ situation, the ’less essential’ gives way, the 5 pairs of speakers become a ’fat line array’ with the LG 55" betwixt...
Ever wall hang a pair of SMGa Maggies’ upside down? Since they’re not known for their bass qualities, no huge loss.... :)
The only pairs (2~3) left to ’roam’ (kinda) are the omnis’, which vary in intent and their elements......and the driving elements of which, my Gratefully Undead Wall with it’s A+D Divide....
"Where the digitals and the analogs play..."
I try to enjoy where I happen to be; that which I collect to move that along doesn’t absolutely have to be Perfect to make me smile.
Overtime, things change, additions, deletions, and the irrational ’fondness’ for the concept of ’retirement’....
Long time local biz contact came by to check out some stock logs, asked
"So....how’du ya like retirement?" *big G*
😏 "...’Bout the same way you do...’When the *uck does it start?!’ "
I can relate to Marvin’s ("Your Friendly Robot Pal!") lament onboard the Heart Of Gold some dayz......
"Brain the size of a planet....and they have me opening doors...." 🤖😒
@asvjerry, i like your style of writing...almost reads like a theater piece.
At some point (months ago), i had cleaned up enough in the hoarder’s paradise to post a decent looking picture in system builder. But, some audiogon website issue prevented me from doing so or even viewing other systems.
I suppose i wasn’t always as extreme a hoarder....some contributing factors were beyond my control...A couple of years ago, guy i’d known since we were wee young (and happy) came to an end with this transient thing called life... and somewhere in his will, he’d decided to state that all his hoarded audio be sent to me. And there it was...a few months later, an overwhelming truck at the doorstep with all his stuff.
And now... it is ~1600 sq.ft of basement space stuffed to the brim, filled to the neck....I am sure i can get rid of my stuff from time to time, but, i have been unable to get to some mental state, where i can get rid of anything of his. When i transition on and revert back to star dust soon enough, it shall all be someone else’s problem indeed.
As long as stuff doesn’t overflow into the floors above (Domains in control of the aesthetics department), i can avoid the dog house...
"Only mammals lower on the food chain than hoity toity humans do the dust baths", some would say. But... "Even a lotus comes out of dirt" (to hell with them hoity toities...), i say.
Catch y’all later...I am dropping my phone and heading to the hills for an extended weekend.
@bdp24....*hmmm* Personally, I'd flip that equation....but recent developments have made that almost moot...
"...the 'classical and stereotype ' of The Audiophile is a wonkish sort, garretted away 'midst neat crates filled with LP records, with the lone scatter of albums next to the 'Philes' Touchstone:
THE audio reproduction equipment, an escape hatch to the more perfect world of music.
The Investment of a Lifetime."
One no longer needs to stash fragile vinyl discs, aging acetate tapes, or even the polycarb discs. Just a decent computer and an acceptable link to everything
Everywhere. In less time that it took you to type in (or even, scroll & clic) the address...or state what it is you've in mind...🤷♂️😎
All the equipment to reproduce is shrinking...with exceptions, Yes.
Speakers will remain disputed Forever.
Give up....*L*
When they vary from 'lil buds stuffed into your head to forklift behemoths with an amp appetite to match.....
Agreement is Futile. Even 2 owners of the same unit will focus on the dissimilar...
...eventually....😏
The 'Gon is the place where one can go and be assured that everyone there likes music in their own fashion and tastes, and has grown to appreciate hearing it in the best fashion possible with whatever makes it improve in doing so.
The rest of it is our personalities showing...towards that:
I'm in it for the *LOL*s'. Aaand the *cringe* factor fobiles that *pop*
"My 5K wpc 24 chan amp just ate the microwave and has got my wife cornered...
Any suggestions?! Please help, I don't know how long I can hold it back by it's ac line cable....
Thanx, @dRDawgduhThrud"
(Side bet: 1st response will be "Let go." Prize = Doing it.)
I learn various 'n sundry lurking about....acoustics, audiotrivata, What's HotvNot, the exchange rates and the spark strikes where the 'heat' is almost palpable...
Instructive and fun....and civil in our own 'Gon Way..... :)
I dont think focussing on music is a cure for gear upgrades obsessed audiophiles.
They are obsessed by the sound because they are not satisfied by the sound not because they suffer from an illness...
They suffer from acoustics basic ignorance...
I know i am cured for life and it is not because i urge myself to focus on music instead of sound , it is because i am in sound ectasy with music now ...
Then ..... 😊
Quit reviews of gear, experiment it is fun, and read acoustics serious articles(not just mere room acoustic )
@tomic601- I don’t know if you are joking or serious, but I think a lot of audiophiles get caught in a vicious circle of trying to improve playback quality and then looking to yet more gear to improve it more, to the point where it is less about musical enjoyment than about gear. I may have said that ineptly, but once I decided to focus on the music, its history and where it fits into the continuum, the less audio "nervosa" I suffered. Granted, it took time and experience to get to this point-- I’m not sure there are any shortcuts- (or maybe I missed the boat a long time ago, being stuck in "audio" as a gear hobby). And sure, there are occasions when you need technical help, troubleshooting, etc. but that should not be a constant, but rather an exception.
There comes a point, to me, where the system(s) are good enough for one to enjoy on their merits without worry.
I cannot answer the OP’s question. I think that’s personal to each person. I still come here because I must get something out of it--though I don’t post constantly.
I’ve developed an increased appreciation for music, and the love of communicating it, since starting piano lessons over a year. I still suck, but have at least a small little collection of of pieces that I can play with feeling and get a response from the few listeners that put up with me. It’s not a feeling that I ever expect to be equaled by listening to recorded music. The ability to move another…at least a little bit…is irreplaceable
I am not a musician but i can wrote a book about the meaning of the Bruckner 5 th symphony as if it was a movie with a deep images content even if i dont read music. 😊
I am an audiophile because i am able to create my own dedicated acoustic room homemade with a complete transformative effect for any given system and i love music...
Then it is not so rare ...😊
my favorite violin pieces are Bach sonatas mono version with Szeryng and Miltstein as my second choice ...😊 ( the Szeryng version of the violin concertos of Bach as second choice)
"music lover" and "audiophile" are completely different classifications. I am a pro violinist and am both.....but that is rare
It is more easy and fun to change a component as it is to change a woman to upgrade them so to speak 😁...
But we learned more putting them in the right embeddings enrironment.😊
And often we must "teak" ourselves to kept our friends...
There are many parallels between our relationship with our systems and our relationships with significant others. However it’s less messy to change an unsatisfactory component
There are many parallels between our relationship with our systems and our relationships with significant others. However it’s less messy to change an unsatisfactory component
Without a doubt there are few who don’t relish the underdog and the achievement of parity or more…. The world wants a $5€ Strad…. and abhors those who do not seek….
And yet….. Strads are….. incapable of being described by mere words… or numbers….
In the 90s and the ’00s, I used to buy the most expensive speakers out there. I just didn’t know enough. I used to have one of the original Wilson Wamms, TAD Reference, the top JBL, etc.
As I become knowledgeable, I was starting to match or beat the sound of such speakers at much lower prices. For example, a guy who doesn’t know what a Killer sub is or what to do with it will only have sucky sound with a million dollar "full range" speaker, etc, etc. it is just the nature of how speakers work in rooms folks. The only guy who even admits things like that in recent times is Paul McGowan perhaps.
I recently sold a 60k Schwikert to fund a 15k Yamaha and will soon get the Borresen X6. Can I eat the Schwikert ’s lunch with a cheaper Yamaha and a Borresen. You bet I can...Did I eat the TAD reference’s lunch with the trickle down TAD E1TX and some killer subs. You bet I did....Did the eat the JBL’s lunch with PA speakers? You bet I did...
An audiophile is someone who cares and learns about improving the fidelity of playback, no matter what the budget is...even if it’s a 100 bucks. If his budget is small, he hopefully learns trickle down concepts, knows who the max bang 4 buck designers are (the really smart ones) etc...and gets smarter about purchases than the guys with bottomless pockets. He will also figure out room acoustics hopefully! An audiophile is also a guy who has the humility to constantly learn things and doesn’t sit on a pedestal thinking he’s got it all figured out in life.
This. Well put.
The issue is...once a typical audioboo snob goes up in price, he will never look at anything cheaper lest it beat his high price junk, somehow. So, you will never get a fair comparison, feel for what you get as you go up in price on a speaker in the same room with the same electronics.
Sorry for weaving off topic, but couldn't help thinking of my Ex here. This text should be standard verb-age embedded in the opening statements of dissolution of marriage defense (justification) cases.
I just saw this thread. OP, you definitely seem to know a lot about music, and probably a lot about how acoustic music sounds. I suspect defer to your judgement on acoustic instruments reproduction more than I would for the majority of posters here, including myself. I think your observations would be valuable here.
I think that you are justified in asking if you belong here. Clearly the emphasis in Audiogon is about individuals that like to experiment with changing equipment, and as you note, most individual components cost more than your system. I am not being pejorative here, merely stating an observation. There is also a smattering of people with modest systems, some of whom make claims that their low priced systems have reached the limits of music reproduction and can’t be bettered.
I guess you have to decide whether it’s worth your time being in the big tent with the different viewpoints. I know many people who read car magazines who are lucky to be able to afford a 20 year old Honda Civic with 200K miles
It was acoustics experiments that helped me the most...
My system is so well balanced now that i can think only about music...
It is not the best system possible by far ...😊
But any system at any price with minimal synergy when acoustically optimized will give you acoustic ectasy by revealing the original recorded acoustic parameters chosen by the recording engineer... Then your attention are focussed on the live recorded acoustics and music... The gear dont matter and impede nothing...
Could the gear be improved ? Always for sure, but when done right any system can give you heaven on earth ... Mine does with speakers and headphone for 1000 bucks ... If i could anybody could...
Simple question: how often, when listening to music, are you distracted by thoughts about the sound of your system -- especially thoughts tinged with dissatisfaction?
If you really are a "pure" music lover, who doesn’t fixate on sonics, congratulations! The "disease", as @ghdprenticecalls it, once contracted, can be tricky to manage.
Perhaps it would be helpful to know most of us are located somewhere on a spectrum, being both music- lovers and sound-chasers in varying proportions and that, furthermore, this balance often changes. For example, when I’m happy with the sound of my system, I naturally tend to focus on music. On the other hand, if I’m experiencing problems with my system and listening is yielding little pleasure, I tend to become absorbed by the drive to address sonic dissatisfaction and seek advice. Of course, some of us are more easily taken over by obsession than others. ;o)
Simple question: how often, when listening to music, are you distracted by thoughts about the sound of your system -- especially thoughts tinged with dissatisfaction?
If you really are a "pure" music lover, who doesn’t fixate on sonics, congratulations! The "disease", as @ghdprenticecalls it, once contracted, can be tricky to manage.
Perhaps it would be helpful to know most of us are located somewhere on a spectrum, being both music- lovers and sound-chasers in varying proportions and that, furthermore, this balance often changes. For example, when I’m happy with the sound of my system, I naturally tend to focus on music. On the other hand, if I’m experiencing problems with my system and listening is yielding little pleasure, I tend to become absorbed by the drive to address sonic dissatisfaction and seek advice. Of course, some of us are more easily taken over by obsession than others. ;o)
@cey I am curious, what are those forums? I think I would have understood what you are saying in year 1 of being a member here. I now, in year 2, don’t treat this as a group of people interested in a dialog or being nice or helpful to each other. Everyone has their own story and experience and they keep repeating it over and over. It’s not their fault, it’s the nature of this train called audiogon forum. It’s 25% entertainment, 25% annoying noise, 25% education and 25% hifi news - for me. So the question of one belonging here doesn’t make sense to me. It’s like getting on a train to your destination, and you are asking do I belong to this train? You got on the train, (nobody forced you to get on and nobody is pushing you off) so yes you do.
I’ve refrained from posting pics since imho most would be bored and unimpressed.... ’SOTA’ only in the State Of That Affordable v. Stuff Of Transient Admiration. ;)
Well said...
I posted only my basic components images... not my acoustic corner which is not esthetical and i never really posted the complete photos of my lost acoustic room with my 100 tuned resonators, just the first images at the beginning which were atrocious and more than unesthetical, this stir the pot of many and i was attacked for a week by a well known seller of tweaks here which never like my homemade motto : dont buy tweaks if you can do them yourself ...
As you my system is SOTA+C ... 😊 State Of That Affordable and creative ...
it could be very easy to feel alienated from this forum. i like it, but its definitely a challenge. this one is far from representative of the audiophile community, so if youre not right for it, and if youre looking for a home, there are far better forums/fora.
so some days im more able to ignore the compulsive thread crapping and flat eartherism by the same internet personas over and over, and i can still learn from the experience and expertise of members and the collective knowledge & experience shared in these discussions. some a these discussions contain some great information and experience and i dont even notice if theres any nonsense.
but if it aint for you, you have options, so dont waste your time. why not go somewehre better?
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