Your sub experience: Easy or hard?

I have a McIntosh home theatre processor and a 250 watt per channel McIntosh amp into Klipsch La Scala speakers.  I use one SVS 2000 sub, located in a cabinet behind the right front speaker, which "vents" though what appears to be an air conditioning vent, but serves only the sub-woofer.  It remains on constantly.  I adjusted it once, during installation, with the free iPhone app, and have not touched it since.  It has worked flawlessly.  I do not notice it during streamed music, and it no doubt helps the La Scala's, which have a relatively high bass drop-off.  All speakers are "invisible."  I know it is there when, during movies, I get a big bass bang.  I have concluded that I do not need a second sub in the system.

My 10 year old Velodyne 12" sub came with an onscreen setup guide with an equalizer, so flattening out the high and low freq's also smoothed out the response. Sounds qreat with my Maggie 3.7's placed facing sweet spot from between speakers.

Not likely I can add much other than a brand that hasn't yet been mentioned: the NHT SubOne. Besides sounding clean and tight, it has a very useful "controller" that sits on top (or can be placed in your rack) that controls volume and has a switch for "Flat" and "Video Contour" (the latter for movies, obviously). It's in my main two-channel music system, so it's set on "Flat." Most importantly, it has lots of ways of connecting, including both high pass and low pass filters, and, of course, a phase switch. I use the high pass option, sending everything above 50 Hz to the mains. I've found that locating it to the side of the mains, and facing ("firing") across the sound field, helps a lot with integration. The result is a perfectly natural bass that goes considerably lower than the mains alone without ever sounding boomy. Rock has real punch while acoustic cellos and basses just sound vital and real, not exaggerated.

My only sub in the main system is a dual side-firing Tannoy, effectively two subs in one box. Tower speaker mfr says DO NOT high-pass; allow the mains to run full range. These are rated to 22Hz but have a peak at 35 and roll off pretty steeply below 31. So I set the sub crossover at 31Hz, rolling off at -12dB/octave above that. Basically you're only conscious of the sub with tones in Octave 0. Above that the contribution is so subtle you would notice it only by its absence.

Now, as to placement, I can move sub around using a carpet scrap on a slick wood floor. The dual side firing design seems to integrate best when placed between and a bit behind the mains. Maybe some day I will have time for more experimentation with settings and placement using good test recordings. Room configuration rules out the sub array, so need to simply fine-tune what I've got. Overall, though? Definitely worth the effort as deep bass is very important to me.

Two Hsu subwoofers - using one to handle 90hz and below with Quad ESL63s and a smaller one in my recording studio/office with JBL 4401 monitors (old school).  Very easy integration. Both sound great. Transition between the mains and subs can’t be heard. And taking the low end load off the ESLs opened them up even more and lets me push them a little harder, when needed. 

If was difficult at first. I tried to follow the manufacturer’s suggestion in the beginning which was a good starting point, but once I started listening to what pleased me sonically that’s when the magic happened for me. Everything became enhanced highs, mids, and of course bass. 
 

Good question, Erik. 
 

Best regards,

East

I'm running two JL Audio F110s with auto room optimization, which is the main reason I say sub setup is very easy. The JLs are active and non-ported so they work pretty much anywhere I put them. The ARO adjusts for room modes. I also run a JL Audio CR1 active crossover to set the LPF & HPF, which I think is also a reason why my subs are so easy to integrate. My speakers are Magico Mini MkII, which sound great on their own but the subs add a lot of dimensionality and grip. 10/10 would recommend. 

Great topic. 

I have been running 2 REL T9is for a few years.  Setup, now, is a breeze.  I could turn them off and reset them and have them integrated again in 15-20 minutes or so. At first, however, I had trouble because I kept fussing with them.  As I gained more experience, I picked up more intuition and my ear got better trained. 

Disclaimer--I only use them to bring out the lower octave or so. I have them tuned so they are not particularly audible.  

The difference with the subs is remarkable and I would never go back to not using them in this setup. 

Gotta point out that choice of sub used is key. The right sub is one that is designed to supplement your mains as needed. If monitors with limited extension you might get away with a smaller sub needed to fill in the low end well. If larger near full range speakers you will need a bigger more extended sub to do that. Room size also matters. The bigger the room the bigger the sub needed. Sub should have level and roll off adjustments at minimum. Phase is a big help for placement flexibility. Very important to look at sub frequency response specs to identify good candidates. It’s almost always about filling in the missing low end. So be sure to lock the right solution for the problem which is different case by case. From there it is not hard. Otherwise, may be impossible.   To get good bass more consistently across the room multiple subs might be needed.  For just the “sweet spot” just one may do fine.  Gotta have the right overall integrated design to start.  I suppose that part can be somewhat hard. Good luck !

Easiest and most significant impact to SQ, to date. Started with a single REL Carbon Special. Returned it because I had to keep adjusting the gain. I could not find a one size fits all setting for my exacting taste. I tried a REL 212SX next and I barely had to touch the crossover and gain controls. It was dialed-in within a few diverse tracks. Now I own a pair of 212SX and will never live without subs again. I have towed one of my 212s to audiophile friend’s homes and blew them away with the improved mids and overall depth of stage. These are friends with Wilson Sasha DAW, Dynaudio Confidence 60 and Focal Scala Utopia EVO. Subs were a definitive lesson for me and my circle. I saved a ton of money and chose a smaller main speaker there is no argument I am missing anything compared to any other system I’ve heard with speakers costing way more than my subs and mains combined. If you did not hear it above, a single 212 was basically plug and play. No joke. A pair are heaven in my room.

Moderate: Stereo pair, locate near mains, phase 0. Took some time and effort listening to a variety of music to get the gain and crossover dialed in. 

Easy. This system was easier the previous. Full range towers are way easier then standmounts. Just filling in the low low. I listen to lots of bass heavy music and the sub is a must. RTJ3 on vinyl as I write this. The sub disappears. Blends seamlessly and provides a more visceral experience at low listening levels. Took 30 minutes to find the correct placement and another few listening sessions to pin down the crossover and level. Easy peezy.

REL subwoofers are different.  Their high-level connection allows them to play more as woofers.  You also need to add a pair and at least start with their SHO series.  Then make sure not to play them with over a 40% volume and dial things in to make sure they blend in.  Bass fall off with volume and you will notice is you are able to play you system with lower volumes and still hear bass.

We can assemble the modules of the ISS built in different countries and assembled in space with success. We can have a “relationship” through AI. We can pinpoint and “paint” targets for invisible air strikes. 
Why in the heck can’t someone figure out an intelligent sub that can adjust volume as needed per recording?

Much easier with two than with only one, and also much more noticeable sonic improvement with two.  I would like to try three or four.

I have 2 rel s/510s. They’re magnificent but with better bass comes the need for battling room resonance. Also, the loudness of the bass from track to track can be all over the place. I wish I had remote volume controls on them.

Piece of cake integrating Hsu VTF-2 Mk 4 with Eminent Technology ET 8.and in my TV system with JBL Hartsfield.

As well as plumbing the depths, the sub will benefit yr system by relieving yr mains of lower octave duties. Yr mains will play more relaxed and bloom. 

Hsu no longer makes the VTF-2 which had a downward firing 12 inch driver. I preferred it to a forward firing Hsu with 15 inch driver. e.g. on Kill Bill Vol. 1 you can feel the head as it hits the table. And I do mean feel.

I use a single REL SHO S/5 in a very irregular room, H/W/L all vary. By necessity set up is behind the tv and took only a few tries for great sound. Close to the wall and aimed to a 45 degree fireplace two feet away. Here’s the bizarre part. Just last week I experimented with rotating the speakers for zero toe in, same position. No bass. Cranking the sub produced nothing but distortion. Weird. Toed them back in and all is well.

It was hard until I got some furniture sliders.

I integrated four SVS SB16 Ultras with LaScalas, phase aligned and EQ'd using REW in three or four hours.  There was a bit of a learning curve with REW so I think I could do it much quicker a second time. 

I use the REL Stentor III and I've also used their Stadium model. Both use a Speakon connection to my amplifier's output taps, along with my regular speakers. Integration has always been easy and seamless, as the amp sends only a small signal to the sub. There is an "overlap" of some of the higher bass frequencies, but I believe this contributes to the seamless integration I enjoy. I control the crossover point and the volume, and the placement on this "sub-bass" is typically where it provides the strongest signal. This is often the opposite placement as for traditional subs, and it's perfect for fitting it into a non-dedicated room: against a wall, or even in a corner is perfect.

It was a challenge to get well tuned integrated bass in my 2 channel room. They are not not a smart subs a pair of VMPS Larger Subs, so I had to figure out optimal placement, crossover points and levels. Room Eq Wizard was a huge help in integrating, along with taking my time, and enjoying the process. That said, just getting REW setup if you are not familiar is a bit of a pain. In my home theater room with my SVS Sub it was fairly straight forward.

I have a sub system that was not very popular when released 30-ish years ago, the Hsu Research TN 1225/Model 500 amp.  Dr. Hsu is a passionate engineer for subwoofers.  This passive system has the 500 watt amp that can run two of the 12in drivers in parallel.  They are a cylindrical tube with basically that 12in footprint so makes placement fairly easy.  Only needing to run a speaker wire also helps matters.  I was able to integrate these with my Wilson Sophia running full range beautifully.  I have the subs cut off at 43Hz and they are 100% invisible, one in the front to the left and one behind to the right.  This was the only position I had and thankfully worked.  My room is the front room of my house so very limiting on placement.  Not sure if any mfg offers a similar passive system nowadays but this design has really worked well for musical bass with zero boom that I have heard so much from traditional powered boxes. 

We have just published our new white paper on this topic "Subwoofer Integration for Stereo Systems for miniDSP, REW and Dirac Live"

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I bought a used  REL SHO S/3 to add to my Magnepan's 1.7i and used this video to set it up and get dialed in: REL setup

It absolutely blew my mind, how better my system sounded, highly recommend. If you have a Magnepan, get a REL.

Away from the corner, closer to the speaker and closer to the side wall facing the listening position or on the room diagonal.

I have two JL Fathom v1 13’s and use a DBX Venue Driverack 360 to integrate them into my system.  It has on the fly gain, phase control, delay, subharmonic extension, frequency slope adjustment and more.  I was constantly experimenting with adjustments and still am, but having on the fly adjustment is great.  Some of the best producers and engineers rolled the highs, as well as the lower end off and ruined good recordings.  Classical and some Country, as well as other genres have been consistent in having well produced recordings, but as I said, too many rolled the best part of the recording off.  It’s hard to add what was never there, but the DBX unit does a good job compensating.  

Started off with one, added another shortly thereafter with good success and a bit of trial and error.

It is essential that you choose a sub or subs with room correction for best results, if you do not otherwise already have RC elsewhere in your system at present. It is very effective at aiding in the integration process, especially one with an infinitely variable X-over point.

According to my experience the choice of a sub (or more than one) depends also very much on your room and its acoustics - and, of course, on the quality of the components in your stereo system (low, middle, consumer, high end). 

I assume nobody out there knows or remembers the make of the sub I use: Acustik-Lab Stella Novus (originally spelled name), a Swiss made component which was very in demand in Asia in its time (and very costly, unfortunately). It allows settings in many ways, which was prior to today's DSP. (The company no longer exists.) So my favorite crossover setting  is 42 Hz...quite discreet. 

Set-up was quite easy, and I needed just some days to find the right listening setting (for me). As another A'goner wrote, the recordings (LP & CD) vary, and depending on that I am able to adjust the sub's settings (by remote control). 

Just a quick note to everyone.

Thank you very much for sharing your insights and staying (mostly) on topic.

Erik

Trying to integrate one was very difficult. Never blended right and never sounded balanced to me. But integrating two was much easier and sounded great. I settled on line-level with a cable from amp speaker taps to a powered subwoofer for each of the two channels. 

I've run REL s/510 SHO with focal Sopra 2, Harbeth 30.2 and Harbeth SHLs 5 with generally good results in a purpose built room about 13x22. I then changed to a JL 113v2 and the JL crossover, CR-1 and now run this with Wilson Sabrina, crossed over at 60 hz. This set up is the best so far, very seamless integration due to both the JL's auto DSP room tuning and the flexibility of the CR1. I also use GIK room treatment and bass absorbers. The bass is subtle and tuneful, no boom. Roon also provides another means of EQ on the fly btw. I think most times subs get set to be too loud and then can border on being perceived as boomy. 

I've been using my Hsu sub for more than 20 years. I stick it in the corner and don' t turn it up too loud. It ain't that hard. 

One Rythmik F12G in between Maggie MMGs.  I recently added a small Miller & Kreisel K-9 in the corner opposite the Rythmik just to flesh out the sound throughout the room (it has one side open to the kitchen/dining room).   Only adjustment was to the phase control - it now melds very nicely with the entire system and is literally two feet from my listening position.  I get no localization from it. 

So..............neither sub was hard to integrate. 

Since I use a sub for "bass fill" to obtain full range sound in a good room, not difficult. I suppose if one is a home theater fan and going for dramatic effects it would be much more difficult. I have a two channel system, so I can pretty much set it and forget it. 

I tried subwoofers with Magnepan 0.7's with no luck. I wired them up with a pair of DW-M bass panels which filled in the lower frequencies with much better integration. I connected the 0.7's to the 4 Ohm outputs on may Hammond 1642 SE Transformers and the two 4 Ohm elements in each DW-M in series and in phase with the 8 to 16 Ohm transformer outputs. 

In my weight training room I built a 45 SET which uses Goldwood GT 1118 pizo tweeters mounted in Parts Express 294-2924 horns and DS1B PRO-X6BM speakers with first order crossover 0.3 mH chokes. This kind of speaker system does well with a subwoofer. 

I think it depends. I got a sub because my room has poor bass response. Lots of experimenting, and lots of long listening sessions. My goal was to have it integrate with my main speakers and call no attention to itself. If Vandersteen Quatros were on a half price sale I would’ve gone that route. I have Vandersteen 2Ce sig. II’s. I added a V. SUB3, and a M5-HPB crossover. Once I embraced that a lot of the setup is personal preference, it was just a matter of extended listening, and fiddling with the settings. I’m happy with it. But, it may be a while before I want to listen to anymore solo upright bass recordings.

“Subs are a pain in the pitootie.”

100%

I agree with comments that variation in recordings makes subs tricky even when you get it set up right for the room. I have a REL T2, which they call sub-bass. I'm a bass player, so I always notice thin bass and enjoy this sub's addition. But I am jumping up to adjust the volume of the sub between contemporary pop/rock recordings and most before 2000. Jazz is more consistent, but contemporary jazz is also produced with more low bass. This makes the sub a little more like a tone control than I'd prefer, but there's no way around it in my system and my listening. I should caveat that I've not had the opportunity (i.e., budget) for a truly full range tower in my system so these comments are about stand mounts and my current Magnepan LRS.

@rennieboy

I’m going off-topic because a couple of responders have mentioned having to constantly change the subwoofer level and I hope I can help.

My experience with this is that this happens when there are pronounced room modes which you have not dealt with. Peaks which certain music excites. Clip them and you can achieve a better sub balance and you no longer have to ride the subwoofer level.

Use the AM Acoustics room mode simulator to find those modes and move the subwoofer out of the hot zones.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

After this, EQ or EQ+Bass traps will deal with this nicely.

Of course, some one always replies "you can’t fix room modes with EQ" and you are wrong. You can’t fix nulls with EQ. Peaks however are dealt with easily, though the more you use placement and bass traps the more locations the solution works in.

Measure, clip the peaks and you’ll find that the sub level you normallly listen to is now way too low. Raise that up and boom.

Mine was relatively easy. The sub was lined with foam, but was still a tad forward sounding, so I added a small amount of polyester batting. You should set the crossover point as low as you feel your main speakers can cover. Mine ended up at 80Hz. Then the main thing I did was to turn it down. If you have a subwoofer, there's a powerful desire to hear it woof, but I found that it sounds better and better the more you turn it down. Until you get to the point where it's no longer overpowering your mains and you can't tell if all that wonderful bass is coming from your speakers or the sub.

Good information Eric, but my desire to change the sub's output level is solely related to low level listening, where I enjoy a little more kick - sort of like the loudness controls we used to have on our receivers back in the day.

I have decided to try the Marchand balanced, second-order, passive, high pass filter at 40 Hz, under the premise that any detriment to the signal above 50Hz will be offset by the benefit of not having my main amps/speakers trying to reproduce those lower frequencies.  Marchand claims a S/N ratio "much better than 110 dB", so worth a try. fixed at

For home theater great, too distracting for stereo

I had two JL Audio 110E subs, the JL Audio CR-1 crossover, and a DSpeaker room correction (which I used on the subs).

To answer the question:

1. Easy.

2. Hard.

3. Impossible.

First, it was hard in the sense of trying to find a place to put two more bloody speakers in my room.  And then the hassle of getting AC to the subwoofers.

But the CR-1 crossover is brilliant.  Simple, fairly intuitive, made for folks like me who don't want to make a second career out of integrating subwoofers (I can not BELIEVE how much time some people spend on integrating subwoofers, the endless room measurements, the tweaking...)

So it was actually easy to get an initial good blend of the subs with my main Thiel speakers.   But...being very picky about integration...it was hard to get a completely seamless integration.  If I spent as much time constantly making adjustments like some subwoofers enthusiasts do, I may well have got a more seamless coherent blend (the Dspeaker did help too).

Impossible in the sense that even when the integration sounded very close to seamless, it still changed the tone/timbre of my speakers.  Always.  And I'm super, super picky about that.  The voice or timbre of a speaker is my number one priority, and if that changes, it ain't the speaker I bought.  The subwoofer always altered the tone somewhat, away from what I liked.

It did even out the bass!.   But I actually preferred the punch and coherence of the speakers when the subs were turned off.  The CR-1 crossover makes it super easy to flick a switch between the speakers run full range and then with the subwoofers integrated.

Anyway, sold all the subwoofer stuff and never looked back.

My first experience with a pair of subs was difficult to the point where the best spot still resulted in unsatisfactory bass. The best spot was hard to find with asymmetric placement but neither in a corner.  The bass was flat except for except a 60Hz vertical mode. I even tried putting the subs on five foot stands to negate it with partial success. This was under the direction of a remote acoustician. A crossover I was reluctant to purchase fixed the 60Hz issue. I recently installed nine quasi bass traps but have yet to remeasure or recalibrate. Listening, thought, the bass is fixed to the point where I like it. I know there is a delay  between the subs and main speakers. While there is that room for improvement, I do not care now.  My room drives me nuts honestly. 

@prof 

Good post. I can relate to it better than those who report outstanding and far-reaching benefits to subs. The subs simply fix a wide and deep bass dip that is not possible to fix with speaker or listener placement.  I also like to play with the CR1's bypass. A tonal shift that came along with it was solved by flipping the ground switch. Not saying that was your issue, but I do understand your preference. 

Very difficult if not impossible. That is why Goldenear speakers have the built-in sub...

As Mr. Gross claims by slightly blending the subwoofers crossover region at a higher frequency to be beneficial in matching the main speakers lower frequency presentation. Simply by using my subwoofers Auto EQ feature followed by manually drag and dropping the subwoofers Frequency Response Parameters by ear. Easy.

Just as easy was determining the rooms ideal subwoofer positions which are, unlike Mr. Gross' claim of within (or near) the speaker, one of the worst locations in all of the rooms my system has occupied. 

I have been playing with various sub options, 1 sub, then 2 subs, then 1 large sub, RCA preamp in, High Pass speaker hook up, various manufacturers. I finally think I have found a good sounding set-up with 2 REL T5x-8" down firing subs using the high pass speaker hook-up, recently purchased. Very easy to set up using the instructions provided and some supplemental reading online.  I am in the process of negotiating for plant space with my Number 1, to move them around somewhat (always a bit of a compromise) and making some minor adjustments to volume and crossover. I am partial to more of a British sound, so more of low end fill, rather than "big", is what I have been chasing. After playing with apps and making continuous adjustments with other subs, these subs seem to be fast enough to not muddy up the midbase and blend in very nicely. I was almost ready to through in the towel on subs and start looking for a three way speaker system again.

I have tested quite a few brands of subs in my 10K cubic foot room.  Some are simply terrible in terms of muddy concocted sound.   The worst one (for my space) was the Paradym monster 15 inch sub with way too much power; although I can say that it is a very sturdy well built piece of gear.   Nothing would tune it to the room, about all it did was rattle the windows; it was not musical at all.  The next worst speakers I used were a group of SVS speakers, again pure mud and phasing them was nearly impossible.  A few others were tested with limited success and then I brought in Bryston/Axiom subs and how refreshing!   Absolutely harmonious easy listening natural bass which blends perfectly with the main speakers.  I currently have 4 subs; the room is filled with fabulous full sound, no muddy issues at all and they are a snap to phase with the fully variable phasing controls.  I set them up initially and rarely touch anything.  I found the most perfect musical bass yet.   I did not concentrate on size, that is all large or all small.  I bought the size which fit the specific area for location in the room.  Two are set up at the 90 and 270 degree positions and another is at the rear 180.   The 270 degree spot is one where I ended up stacking a single 12 sub on top of a dual 12 inch driver sub; the stack is around 6 feet tall and fills the corner perfectly.   Up front are a pair of Bryston Model T signature triple 8 inch woofer main speakers and no sub is needed in the front.   I cross the subs at 150 hz so that I get all of the really nice upper range bass with the very low mids, that was key to the set up.  I have the front mains crossed at around 80 hz so that they handle down to the mid bass and don't do the heavy lifting.   My larger subs will handle very low range bass beautifully.

I am really pleased with the set up; the speakers were all built to order for me in real wood veneers with pleasing satin natural finishes. 

Very interesting discussion.