Is this a newly assembled system? How big is your room? How are your speakers placed?
What is wrong with my system?
Hi everyone -
I’m posting here because individually I think my components are all good, but together my system is not making music, rather is is making bright bass less noise. Honestly, I’m thinking it’s no one component, but the matching of components that is causing this issue. I would like to get everyone’s opinion as to what I’m hearing. My components are as follows:
B&W 802D (first generation diamond)
Audioquest bi-wired Indigo speaker cables
Classe CAM-200 monoblock amplifiers
Audioquest Water XLR interconnect
Bryston BP26 preamp
Audioquest Water XLR interconnect
Mark Levinson 5100 cd player (PCM slow minimum phase)
thanks in advance.
Mark Levinson 5100 CD player
109 responses Add your response
You have all exceptional equipment. But when I look over it all strikes me as on the detailed analytical side. Added together looks to spell sterile. Any one might be good… but together. My experience with Mark Levinson is that it is highly detailed and very analytical. I can appreciate what it does, but to me it is not musical. This stickers out to me first. The heart of a musical system is the preamp. If you get the sources musical and through the preamp musical with nice midrange and warm bass you can get a pretty musically engaging system. So I would concentrate on this. I would swap out the Preamp for a tube one, Conrad Johnson would be great, Audio Research… VAC. Swap out the Mark Levinson CD player for an ARC CD player / DAC. These things would push you way towards the musical side but keep the detail (increase the rhythm and pace significantly. Over the last ten years I have moved step by step to the warmer less analytical side of audio, now having all tube gear and my systems are an order of magnitude more engaging and musical. It is really eas]y to focus on the obvious stuff the detail and loose the essence. You can see where I ended up by clicking on my used I’d… my systems are shown there. |
yep, he nailed it. Get a tube preamp; ARC LS-17 or highers, Quicksilver, or Aesthetix, BAT, VTL….. Your cables are pretty neutral, and as said everything else leans to analytical etched leading edge. re bass - how far out from back and side walls are the speakers…and your listening chair ? does bass improve if you move off the chair ? |
onehorseponyThere is no record of this anywhere?? sure you got the make/model right??? |
They are all good components but the audioquest wire does not sound like the best choice in this case because of the detailed amp with a detailed preamp and detailed speakers, you need a different wire choice because audioquest wire is detailed and has a light tonal balance, just stick in a different interconnect between amp and preamp and you will know if it is the wire. |
First, never buy all the same cables. I've heard some great systems wired with Audioquest turn to absolute rubbish swapping in another Audioquest. Purchase cables that mate well with the components they interconnect. Disregard 99.99% of all specific recommendations for what to buy, be it cables, amps or ???. You are listening to a system, part of which is the room - which you did not describe - and all must integrate euphonically. The 802d is not particularly bright, but has a nasty impedance curve which may give the Classe fits. B&W 802D loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com The amp is how old? May need a rebuild How did you assemble this system? |
B&W with Bryston is a very clinical and harsh combination. I would get a tube preamp (I love BAT), and would sell the B&Ws to get speakers with a soft-dome tweeter. I sold my B&W N804s a few years back, got speakers with a soft-dome tweeter (JA Pulsars - v1), and have been very happy with the change. |
Great system! B&W 802D are great speakers when pulled forward out into the room away from the back wall, and they would benefit greatly from a musical pair of subwoofers. If you want to keep those speakers for the long run then I would take seriously audioman58's offer to help you upgrade the caps before doing anything else. I can't wait to hear what you come up with. |
It's probably the amplifier that doesn't pair well with your speakers. But I don't know. When you say there is very little or no bass, what are you playing on the system? There are many styles of bass with unique attack, decay, and textural resolve. Play a song that you are familiar with. It could be that your system is just resolving and therefore excellent at highlighting details in a recording. |
Try a small tube buffer relay between amp and pre, or pre and source. Cut small tshirt squares, place over tweeter, or on inside of speaker grill cloth, helps very well! Great system, 200W is good power, maybe you need more power I went from 200 to 300, then to 600WPC/rms, huge difference. The only 200WPC I still have are the odyssey kismet amps, they do about 350WPC-ish into 4 ohms. They seem to have more juice than advertised, they drive my older modded Vega D-9’s to great levels, and sound/bass/mids, etc.... bought a 15-18 year old stratos pair maybe 7-10 years ago, hooked up, the D-9’s drained the older stratos pair, the sound became harsh, and bass and mids became mushy, and distorted. Took me years to save for the upgrade, called Klaus, he was so cool, he was at a Chicago audio show, he swung by my house, chatted a bit, picked up the older stratos pair, upgraded to the kismet with large caps, and goodies, etc etc....... we met almost halfway between Indianapolis and where we live,.. such a good dude, brought home, let sit 24 hours to get room temp, plugged in, powered on, played source for 3-4 months continuously, they are amazing, and Klaus is a super good/nice dude. With only a rated 200WPC at 8 Ohm' they kick some serious arse, not sure why, they drive the modded D-9’s to great levels with NO show of being drained, or distortion. They dip to about 3.5 Ohms at some bass/music guitar crescendos. The Odysseys keep trucking, as do my brothers McCormack dna-750 amps. The Odysseys keep up with the McCormack amps, how,..... I don’t know, but they do...... the Odysseys hammered the Emotiva 1000W monos, but to keep up with the McCormack dna-750s’ is astonishing, not better, but they keep up. mccormacks bass is tighter, guitars are more natural and highs have more and longer decay than the Odysseys. The price difference is huge. The Odysseys are great, hoping to have them for 20 years, or pass down to family. McCormack stuff is simply sublime, and damn near flawless, Odysseys are very close behind. Yes they are bridged stereo amps, according to Klaus, they are bridged in a way to keep specs, and power amazing. Usually bridged amps will double output, not the Odysseys, they keep the 180-200 WPC output and retain amazing specs. so some people who ridicule bridged amps, should try these odyssey amps. My brother said, those amps are wicked good, as they do keep up with his McCormack dna-750 amps. The Sunfire does sound a bit thicker, and have a crunchier guitar tone. Anyway, I love my gear, it’s great stuff. The pioneer elite dv79-avi is great through the Odysseys, with a Sanders sound “the preamp” and I swap out with the Onkyo P-308 preamp. Gary Moore, Michael Schenker, Malmsteen, Paul Gilbert, etc sound so good, it’s scary! Rock on!,! \,,/ |
Place the 802D's against the wall for the best/flattest bass! The farther out in the room the most uneven bass. This applies to all box speakers. Roy Allison investigated this phenomenon 40+ years ago! Subsequently it was called the Allison Effect. Roy successfully marketed a line of speakers that took advantage of this proximity to the room boundaries for flat bass response. Around the same time (1977) Peter Snell produced his Type A speaker utilizing this principle of locating the woofer near the wall/floor boundary. |
I’m not a fan of b and w but they are competent in design and manufacturing. Classe amps are more than adequate to deliver drive any speaker even with a demanding resistance and phase angle. A Bryston preamp is a neutral device that will drive any amp without coloring the sound, and certainly would not suppress the bass. I agree with placing the speakers closer to the back wall for reinforcement. My suggestion is front end. Perhaps a denefrips aeras or audio gd r1 and use downloaded files via usb or a streaming service. These r to r dacs have an organic quality that many find closer to analog sources. To quote mr Atkinson. The future of audio is digital, it just won’t be spinning disks |
Many great suggestions here. I agree with trying 'no cost' or the cheapest changes first like room placement, etc. As for cables (which could be the issue), check out the Cable Company (www.thecableco.com). They have a lending library where you can audition cables then return the ones you don't want. That's a good way to experiment with other cable brands. And definitely check cable placement--I accidentally crossed speaker cables once and the sound was really weird. Once I double checked all the connections---voila! Everything was right again. Good luck and let us know what you end up doing. |
the importance of room placement. I doubt room placement is going to fix this problem, it will help a little, but it’s still going to be bright and analytical. I had the same problem as the OP a few years ago, a krell amp and a solid state preamp it wasn’t even listenable. I have a dedicated room and placement didn’t help much. I inserted a tube preamp in the chain and it’s very musical now, I actually think I’ve gained some detail without that bright sound etching at the ears. |
i agree with @yogiboy I hate to burst your bubble but any B&W that I have listened to are bright. given the words of fairly extreme frustration expressed by the op on the sound he is hearing, maybe the best bet would be to get a set of warmer, more tonally balanced speakers like harbeths or spendors or vandersteens ...of course, after confirming his speaker set up and room are ok... |
The challenge is that this are bright speakers with components that are not warm enough to offset the bright speakers. There is nothing inherently bad about a bright speaker. It just needs the right equipment to balance it out. Many elite speakers are on the bright side of the spectrum. You can do a few different things. You can add treatment. An overdamped room will suck the brightness out of the system. You can change speakers. Vandersteen would do the job as an alternative or you can change equipment. My hunch is preamp and DAC would be the obvious first swaps. A warmer preamp and a warmer DAC can do wonders. There is no silver bullet one component. I would make a single change and then reevaluate. One other thing. Power conditioning does matter and have no a decent power conditioner can smooth things out a bit. I would also be curious what cables you are using. Also, are the speaker cables coiled at all. This can have a shocking impact if the cables aren’t shielded like Nordost. More you share, the more we can help. |
Having gone from a solid state to tube preamp, I can say they will warm things up a bit, but if the problem is that your system is truly "bassless", I have my doubts it will solve all your problems. I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest as a test that you reverse your speaker connections, on one end, for one speaker, and see if the bass magically comes alive. i.e. could one side be wired backwards, either internally or externally? Not trying to insult any intelligence(s), but if there is truly no bass on a set of speakers this size with these amps, it seems to me there is something systemically wrong. I have no experience with these speakers, and others say they are bright, but sounds like they are abnormally bright. If that makes no difference, I saw an earlier question about the age of the amps, time to recap? Not sure that would cause the issue, but seems to me that the caps help provide the reserves to handle demand for bass. Not an expert here, but thought it worth commenting. Hope you figure it out, lot of nice gear. |
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nice stuff, so investigate, patiently, before spending any real money. my first instinct is to buy all common in-expensive cables, lamp cord for the speakers, change them all. listen, clues? ....................................... no significant difference, it’s the speakers and/or the preamp. add sub(s), or change preamp? bring in some other speakers you can borrow or return, see how they compare? buy a pair of inexpensive Rockville subs you can easily return, just to learn something? two, not over-sized, a ’stereo pair’ of front facing subs adjacent to the mains. ......................................... difference from cables change: then put the cables back one set at a time, speakers only: differences? preamp to amp? primaty source to preamp? as soon as you hear something you know is non-imaginary, better or worse: before proceeding, leave that change and go backwards, reverting to in-expensive cable, IOW, just that change, or a change due to the last one and any prior. I’m exhausted thinking about it. You will prove things about the cables as you go. |
Hello, I would try some new power cables. I would want a pretty good gauge for your preamp. I like 14awg-12awg. On your amp get 12awg -10awg. You have some hungry equipment but I don’t know what you are feeding it. Their are some great suggestion for preamps on this thread. PS Audio BHK is another great one. It also adds some tubes to the mix. Sometimes we think we should throw Silver cables at everything. If you did this maybe go back to some really good copper cables. I added a silver power cable, speaker jumpers and speaker cables to my system and it got a little too bright. I am just demoing these but now I will pull back each of these one at a time to see if I can find with the sweet spot. I had really good sound. Now I am looking for as close to perfection as possible. Power cables can help a lot with this. Also, IsoAcoustic or Townshend isolation gear. Seriously, next level sound. It doesn’t matter what gear or speakers you have this isolation gear takes your system to a new level. I hope this helps. |
Hello, Add JL Audio CR1 crossover and a pair of subs. I use a pair JL Audio F110 subs. It’s not about adding bass. It’s about controlling the bass and dialing it to the room. If you are in the Chicagoland area this store lets you try things in your home before you buy: https://holmaudio.com/ Your gear is really good. Better than mine is right now. I think this can be solved with cables, isolation, and a subwoofer system. I hope this helped. |
