The thing that stickers out to me is your brand of speakers.
Know to be an in your face speaker. Yes you could try a tube preamp
but in the end I bet you unload the speakers.
What is wrong with my system?
Hi everyone -
I’m posting here because individually I think my components are all good, but together my system is not making music, rather is is making bright bass less noise. Honestly, I’m thinking it’s no one component, but the matching of components that is causing this issue. I would like to get everyone’s opinion as to what I’m hearing. My components are as follows:
B&W 802D (first generation diamond)
Audioquest bi-wired Indigo speaker cables
Classe CAM-200 monoblock amplifiers
Audioquest Water XLR interconnect
Bryston BP26 preamp
Audioquest Water XLR interconnect
Mark Levinson 5100 cd player (PCM slow minimum phase)
thanks in advance.
Mark Levinson 5100 CD player
109 responses Add your response
I have had the 802D's since new along with associated classe stuff. I had no ideal what I was doing, it was all new to me... and had a 200 watt amp hooked up to them, actually a ca-5200 in home theater set up... I have since bridged the 5200 to give me 400 watts, after I learned how much of an idiot I was... Putting a 200 watt amp to these is completely insufficient and risky. These things need a min of 400 SS watts to sound good. I know what you all are thinking, the 800's use to be hooked up to the cam350's at demo rooms and sounded good, yeah, but not great, untill they were hooked up to the mc501's. You want GOOD bass from them, you want them to sound much better, you want to prevent yourself from accidentally clipping and destroy those $1000 a piece tweeters (like I did, not sure they are still available anymore), ditch that amp immediately. My 2 cents worth, GL.
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No nothing is fighting each other. Unproductive way of viewing it. I cannot recommend what you are doing. Others I am sure can. Not me. Not at all. Listen- every single one of your components is responsible for and contributing to the sound you are trying to avoid. Every single one. If you try and patch this over with cables all you will wind up with is a system that still sounds bad, only less glaringly bad. But still bad. Only now if you keep going like this instead of being bad it will in the long run be even worse. In the beginning a couple months ago all you had to do was start methodically removing and replacing one at a time all the analytical ML, Classe, B&W etc. Each one of these replaced with something good- NOT trying to patch over the others, just better than what it replaced. The advice to try tubes is well-intentioned but misplaced. Try that and you will look for super warm tube gear trying to offset your super lean gear. Big mistake. Forget system matching, that is really the band-aid approach. "My system is too harsh, so I will match all my harsh components with syrup." Yes I know that is what everyone says. Well sorry but it is wrong. This is the way you build a system: forget what you have, focus on what you want. Each step will then be in the right direction. Otherwise you buy a bunch of bloated bass heavy wire trying to tame the other stuff. Eventually when you replace the other stuff you are forced to deal with the bloated bass heavy band-aids. Don't buy band-aids! |
Update, I’ve removed the Audioquest Water interconnects from my cd player to my preamp. I still have the Water interconnects between the preamp and the monoblocks. I replaced the interconnects from the cd player to the preamp with a pair of Audioquest Ruby cables. I don’t know if this is a recommended move or not. What I did find is that my system still has resolution but the brightness/sizzle at the very top is eliminated. Can anyone explain if this move makes any sense, or are the different interconnects ‘fighting’ each other? |
It's not a problem with cables or single components.
Test your room response. This is something that is easy to use http://en.audionet.de/apps/carma/ " bright bass less noise " can mean that your listening/speaker position needs to change a bit (some feet) as you're sitting in a low pressure zone. Depending on your room shape and size and listening position it can mean that more than one bass frequency is affected and that's why it sounds as it does. |
First of all, when a person says "musical", what sound is actually musical? Does the "musical" mean that any audio system is making sound very mush like actual concert sound? Or, there is more bass than the original music, so the over-boosted bass simply makes your ears pleasing? And, what does the "analytical" mean? Please, do not say "musical" or "analytical" before you attend real concerts, and compare the feeling of the concerts and sound from your audio. My system does not have a preamp. But mine produces piano music that is very much like piano concert I attended. |
I remember some 25 years ago I had a Bryston pre/power - ATC 35 combo and complained about the lack of bass. Which was ridiculous really, since on paper that combo was able to produce a thunderous bass ( just like the OP setup). I even went to the dealer, he quickly put together the same amp and speakers and it produced a monstrous bass. I felt so stupid. But in my room subjectively there was no proper bass. I measured the freq. response, and the reason was a strong room mode around 120 Hz at the listening position even at a moderate level, which masked the deeper bass. I couldn’t move the speakers around much, so added a TacT Room Correction box and flattened that mode. Immediately I got a flat, deep, powerful bass and as a bonus - a much more natural midrange. You may have something similar. Start with moving the speakers a bit and walking around the room while listening to the bass. Is the upper/mid bass changing dramatically? Can you find a listening position where the deeper bass goes low and you can feel it properly? If that’s the case, you may need some extensive room treatment, which is a lot of work, or some digital eq like Lyngdorf Room Perfect which is not cheap, or a new speakers/ amp combo that will behave differently in that region. Probably some good 2-way standmounts. When I was starting, I had that Idea of a big speaker that will give me a big bass. The reality proved to be a bit more complicated. The subjectively flattest and deepest bass in my room, not using digital room correction, came from a relatively compact quarter-pipe standmound. |
We had issues with a new preamp, for quite a while, Switched from one preamp to a much more expensive one with a nice power supply,. We lost our deep bass, it seemed so average, and plain, after a while, few months, she came around, warmed up, moved speakers, added pillows behind the speakers, Eventually, everything came into laser focus to my ears. I still use old late 80’s early 90’s audioquest cables. only add ons were the shielded Belden from preamp to amp, and that helped a lot. Lots of factors , try them all, and let your ears make the decision. All this has been mentioned above. |
What power conditioning and noise control are you using. Dedicated lines for your amps, pre amp and digital gear will add life. Separate power conditioners for your pre amp and digital gear will help with noise. Keeping all SMPS's off your AC lines for your gear is essential. I have found PS Noise Harvesters very helpful. I have almost a dozen. |
First understand that B&W Group includes Classe and Rotel. Any Store/Salesperson will be inclined to sell/pair any combination of these units regardless of performance. A more modern version of this is McIntosh paired with Sonus Faber. That Said... The B&W 802D has a tight Frequency Response - 28Hz - 34KHz. Typically you want a speaker that can capture as much of the frequency range as possible say - assuming your budget falls within the components you purchased you should be looking for speakers that perform within 23Hz - 40KHz. The frequency response will guide you towards your final choice which will be made with your Ears. If you are looking to extract as much performance out of your existing set up, I agree with those who have stated - You need more power driving your Power Amps. Look at your power delivery. If you are using Stock Power Cables your Amps are probably not even operating at 50% capacity. Check out Puritan Audio Labs, Audience Adept Response for Conditioners - For cables in this assumed price range I like the Analysis Plus Silver. Invest in a Substantial - Tube Pre Amp, CJ is a great build and has some solid deals, Rogue Audio, Backert Labs, BAT, Older AR - before The McIntosh Group. Invest in better Cables - Cable Company has a Library Program which is a great resource. Other companies are Silversmith Audio - Fidelium Cables, Tempo Electric, Thales, Analysis Plus. After making these changes, I would suggest the next Investment be in a Pair of Subs, IMHO - REL 510 will get your Frequency response down to 20Hz. Finally your CD Player - I would look towards a Player with a VRDS Mechanism. Developed by TEAC - Esoteric Player are built around the mechanism. Philips I believed just released their version of the Mechanism within the last couple of years. I have always found better deals/ more bang for buck in the used market. Good Luck |
Build some good subs out of some old cabinets, then get a good preamp and amp to control them separately. It works for my older 803's. B&W tends to sacrifice bass output for accuracy. Your speakers are great, but B&W also prices their speaker so high that we need a dedicated listening room of the exact size, or smaller, for them to function properly. .In my bedroom, my speaker sound awesome, but in my main 35 x 25 room, with 14 foot ceilings, I need extra bass on most recordings. Time align the subs with the speakers by measuring the drivers. The center of the sub magnet should be parallel with the center of your 802 woofer magnets.I did have Classe electronics (A bunch of it that was given to me), did not prefer it to my Audire, especially in the bass, I could have been perfectly happy with it. Ditto for my gift Bryston pre-amp (Now on TV system), which was pretty much bassless with my subs, both with the Bryston and Audire amps, so that is another thing to try out. Another thing? Do you have tone controls? I do not, but with one of the Classe preamps, it worked well with some bass boost. |
I would agree with Russ69 a tube preamp will go a long way in creating the sound you are shooting for. A Cary SLP98 or 05 would be my choice but use your ears. Then room treatments. With the room treatments you don't have to get fancy, plants, flowers and rugs/tapestries go a long way and have a better aesthetic keeping the other half happy. |
About 12 responses ago, the OP added new info that that ML CD player sounded sterile , detailed, but thin. The Arcam CD player gave a warmer sound with fatter bass. I currently owned the 802N and my experience was not enough bass like the cheaper pair of B&W 683. I have a McIntosh C-42 into MC252 at 250 wpc. The highs and mids are to die for, lots of details, but bass was just thin. And this is making use of the wall boundaries, etc. I gave up and just added an old B&W ASW1000 sub, and the sub volume at very minimum, just a tad to fill in the hole and the whole system sounds great now. Saved me from a lot of stress of trying to tweak the system and not get to enjoy my music with the money I spent. The Classe amps are supposed to be the best match for those 802's as I read somewhere that they were voiced that way. I agree with others that the Bryston pre is analytical, and there are no tone controls (?) , so you cannot even boost the bass on some CDs. I don't have anything to suggest as there were about 100 suggestions already, but I think I know how you feel, and good luck. Please post back once you find the working combination!! |
Some good suggestions and some rather radical suggestions as well. Do your due diligence and really work on speaker placement. Mark the location of the speakers before you begin. You may wish to consult the Cardas Room Setup & Speaker Placement Guide: Cardas Room Setup Guide I believe that you will reap great benefits and then tackle some room treatments if need be. At that point which I hope is successful then you may consider a singular change to dramatically change your sound. Most folks are suggesting to ditch your SS Preamp and go to a Valve Preamp. Preamps are a very difficult and critical component to get really right. Lots of mediocre and very bad preamps to choose from. Audible Illusions makes sonically good preamps with one caveat. They don't drive very long interconnects (at least that's what I've read). The M3B has twin triodes and is a full function pre and has an option for phono boards for low output MC. It was my second choice but I opted for the Sutherland Engineering N1. Take it one step at a time. Best |
Maybe a preamp/amp match...I doubt it. Most likely it’s the room. My current system is 3x the cost of my previous system in my previous residence. That system, in that room, walks away from my current system (It had early concrete acoustic ceilings). But it took almost a year of trial and error to find that sound. I agree that Primaluna sounds downright bodacious if you don’t mind a very slight loss in detail. |
B&W are voiced for a ’noticeable’ top-end so in a demo against other speakers they stand out. Today the race is on for detail,detail and detail and you unfortunately have a system that is showcasing this. The advice to change caps can be ignored at this stage. I am big into the improvement caps can make but you need to get system balance first. Cables, vibration control, etc. all help and in some cases make huge differences and those too are for experimenting with after the system is performing to the point where you are enjoying it. There have been suggestions to change the pre-amp which I agree with but, again, later, after, after what? Your room. You have not described your room nor mentioned if you have any room treatments. I suspect you don’t. This is important: You will have no happiness unless you treat the room, FACT! People in the main simply can not conceptualise the importance and effect it has. I can assure you that a system worth 1/3 of yours in a correctly treated room will outperform it to the point your jaw will hit the floor. It was suggested you move the speakers. To prove my point leave the speakers where they are for now and go stand in a solid corner at the back wall and you will hear bass. Big B&W have bass and you are probably sitting in a null. Null? ... look it up. A DBA will also help with smoothing out peaks and nulls which not only cleans up bass but mids and tops as well. True story. Consider why you have been asked more than once to describe or post pics of your room. Does this not ring alarm bells that acoustics may be important? It is more than that, it is the sole determinant of good sound. |
@kymanor1 - one line zingers are tiresome. This wiring is ILLEGAL: "I have 2 dedicated lines, each has its own breaker, they share only the ground wire. Electrician installed. Silent background." from Audiogon Discussion AC Dedicated Line. Please go away until you have something valid to contribute
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Get rid of the Bryston. Try a Classe preamp. Matched components matter.Utter nonsense. Bryston makes some of the most musical amplifiers and products extant. I don't own any, but I worked in great studios with a wall of Brystons. One of the worst systems I ever heard had Classe components. I've also heard Classe systems to die for. |
Here's an inexpensive experiment for you to try. Are you woofers putting out much sound? Years ago I had B&W N800's bi wired and bi-amped. Tubes on top, SS on the bottom. Eventually Killed it all as no sound benefit. Suggest you clear the air on connections, cable issues and a possible impedance miss-match to your amp from bi-wire. Get some old, regular speaker cables or even lamp cord and put the links back on your speakers. Hook the speakers up straight and listen for a bit. You may be pleasantly surprised at the increase in sound quality balance and can shop for some warmer regular speaker cables. Good luck. |
Coiled vs uncoiled speaker matters depending on whether the cable is shielded. Unshielded cable can’t be coiled. Shielded cable can. This is easily testable and is not subtle with ribbon type cable and kills bass. Traditional wire will sound slightly warm and cause treble to roll off. This is more subtle. I have tested this and almost threw out a pair of Nordost speaker cables thinking they must be counterfeit until this was pointed out to me. |
Someone ran a test, forget who...concerning a coiled speaker cable...there was no discernible sound difference between a coiled or uncoiled speaker cable. My left speaker cable is coiled, my right is not. Sounds fine.Sounds like that someone was you. If you have enough speaker cable to coil then trust me, it is not speaker cable. It is wire. Off a reel. If it sounds fine to you, wonderful. You can save a tremendous amount of money. We should all be so lucky. |
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Sorry, I didn’t read any of the comments just the original post. Specifically: I think my components are all good, but together my system is not making music, rather is is making bright bass less noise. Then I look at the list of components and think, yeah, what else? My guess is without reading the comments it is full of gosh you have good stuff. My impression looking at your component list is of course you have "bright bass less noise" - every single one of your components is why! You have accidentally achieved a perfect storm of hi-fi sounding gear. The speakers might be okay, but even a really sweet little Raven Blackhawk tube amp cannot transform Mark Levinson into music. Some things simply cannot be done. A man’s got to know his limitations. Seriously, Raven Blackhawk. Replace the B&W with something Tekton. Anything, frankly, especially if you want bass. I just heard Pendragon XL on Townshend Podiums with a 37wpc Bel Canto SET amp and it was to die for. You would NOT be saying "bass less noise" you would be saying "Oh My God I want THAT!" You simply do not need more than 20w, not with proper speakers anyway. Wish I could say it is just one thing but sadly the truth is every single one of what you have is contributing in full to the "bass less noise" you are hearing. Cables too, I am sure. Townshend F1 will do you nicely. Then put everything on Pods. The beauty of it is you can probably ditch your whole system, sell it all off, and buy newer better like I’m saying and have money left over. Then sit back and marvel at the incredible transformation. Come back then and I will explain how it is that a much cheaper system can be so much more musically satisfying. But by then you will already know. |
New I found something interesting. I have two cd players connected to my system now, the ML 5101 and an older Arcam cd72. |
Can you demo a Bryston amplifer? Three years ago I replaced my Classe CA-201 with a Bryston 4B3 and was was quite surprised at the all around improved sound the Bryston added to my system. Rest of system is Bryston BP25, Teac PD-H600 cd player and Canton Vento 890.2 DC Speakers. Blue Jeans in between. I have no desire to change anything. |