What is wrong with my system?

onehorsepony; What made you purchase the B&W speakers that you have? THIS I think is question number one! Did you hear them some where and did you fall in love with what you heard? Or did you buy because you read a review? This question has to be answered before anything happens. Pictures would be great also. Joe

Others have already mentioned this but if that were my system the first thing I would do is try a tube preamp, see how that sounds and go from there.


I would even go a step further and get an octal tube preamp with a tube rectifier. To my ears the octal tubes have a bigger more airy sound than the small signal tubes.

What made you purchase the B&W speakers that you have? THIS I think is question number one!

i wondered about this myself... op is voicing such a level of frustration over the sound of his system... how did he get there??... the stuff is not cheap, so many pieces, all rather sizzly and strident (inherited?)

@georgehifi,
the unit you asked about is perhaps the ML 5101.

Insert one of these in the chain.  Home trial/returnable.
https://www.musicdirect.com/analog-accessories/Jolida-Foz-SS-X-Sound-Stage-Expander

jasonbourne52,

You seem to be highly opinionated on these forums. What type of equipment do you have? Can you post some pictures on the systems page?

ozzy

To the op (if you are still there) some very good advise on equipment has been posted. So I can only add my 2 cents on speaker placement.

The B&W of that vintage are a little bright, but can be tamed with proper room treatments and speaker positioning.

My general rule of thumb is to start with the speakers at 1/3 of the way out into the room, at least 30"+ from the side walls and sitting about a 1/3 from the speakers. This is a starting point, move the speakers to fine tune from there. Eventually, you will hit a spot where the bass locks in and becomes more defined.
Also, experiment with toe in. Bright speakers work better with less or no toe in.

ozzy

I don’t know if anyone else is like me, but the more I spend on something, the more I question whether it is really better.  Say, if I was over at a friend’s house and he was playing his $5,000 system, and then I go back to my (only in my dreams) $30,000 system, I would be questioning whether it is really that much better than what my friend has.  I would be driving myself crazy with tweaks to try to get THEE best sound . . what I paid for.  But it would likely still not sound good enough to justify in my mind that I got what I paid for.  The more I spent, the more I would feel these doubts and the more money I would be tempted to spend to get to the elusive higher level of musical nirvana.

On the other hand, I can go out to my backyard deck and listen to the Bluetooth speakers in the shape of a rock that cost $200 that my ex-girlfriend gifted me, and I just listen and enjoy and think “This sounds good”.  I don’t drive myself crazy with wanting to tweak — it is what it is, and that’s fine.  Probably just me. 

Add a sub and disconnect the tweeters. Will be an improvement.
Cheap and easy-peasy.

You guys are talking to a ghost, the OP's gone MIA!

Loudspeakers are old enough to have capacitor drift and ferrofluids drying up. This would cause sound like you mention. Rebuild loudspeakers or upgrade.

"jasonbourne52,

You seem to be highly opinionated on these forums. What type of equipment do you have? Can you post some pictures on the systems page?"

Yep...the forum now has TWO keyboard "experts".

Can you demo a Bryston amplifer? Three years ago I replaced my Classe CA-201 with a Bryston 4B3 and was was quite surprised at the all around  improved sound the Bryston added to my system. Rest of system is Bryston BP25, Teac PD-H600 cd player and Canton Vento 890.2 DC Speakers. Blue Jeans in between. I have no desire to change anything.

New

I found something interesting. I have two cd players connected to my system now, the ML 5101 and an older Arcam cd72.

The Arcam cd72 has a fuller bass, warmer midrange sound to it. The negative is that there is not as much musical separation.

The ML 5101 has more separation but less bass. The negative is that no matter which PCM setting I use the highs are too hot, to much sizzle which sounds good for about one song, then becomes grating.

Any thoughts?

i would love to try a tube preamp. Stores will not let me audition them at home. 

i wish i could find a store that would let me audition a tube preamp at home.

Get some accoustic panels, absorption, to remove reverbs in room.  Tends to calm noisy sounds, much quieter too. 
Very simple.

i really do want to try a tube preamp, i can't find a store that will lend me one to audition at home

Sorry, I didn’t read any of the comments just the original post. Specifically:

I think my components are all good, but together my system is not making music, rather is is making bright bass less noise.

Then I look at the list of components and think, yeah, what else?

My guess is without reading the comments it is full of gosh you have good stuff. My impression looking at your component list is of course you have "bright bass less noise" - every single one of your components is why!

You have accidentally achieved a perfect storm of hi-fi sounding gear. The speakers might be okay, but even a really sweet little Raven Blackhawk tube amp cannot transform Mark Levinson into music. Some things simply cannot be done. A man’s got to know his limitations.

Seriously, Raven Blackhawk. Replace the B&W with something Tekton. Anything, frankly, especially if you want bass. I just heard Pendragon XL on Townshend Podiums with a 37wpc Bel Canto SET amp and it was to die for. You would NOT be saying "bass less noise" you would be saying "Oh My God I want THAT!" You simply do not need more than 20w, not with proper speakers anyway.

Wish I could say it is just one thing but sadly the truth is every single one of what you have is contributing in full to the "bass less noise" you are hearing. Cables too, I am sure. Townshend F1 will do you nicely. Then put everything on Pods.

The beauty of it is you can probably ditch your whole system, sell it all off, and buy newer better like I’m saying and have money left over. Then sit back and marvel at the incredible transformation. Come back then and I will explain how it is that a much cheaper system can be so much more musically satisfying. But by then you will already know.

^^^ Anyone recommending phase incoherent Tektons is to be ignored. Ditto sonics via nameplate. Sad. Really, really sad.

Tektons are like duct tape!  They'll fix anything.

Including reading comprehension. Try it and see.

A pair of Ohm Walsh speakers in place of the B&Ws might do the job. They did in my case replacing a pair of B&Ws about a dozen years back. 

Someone ran a test, forget who...concerning a coiled speaker cable...there was no discernible sound difference between a coiled or uncoiled  speaker cable. My left speaker cable is coiled, my right is not. Sounds fine. 

Someone ran a test, forget who...concerning a coiled speaker cable...there was no discernible sound difference between a coiled or uncoiled speaker cable. My left speaker cable is coiled, my right is not. Sounds fine.

Sounds like that someone was you.   

If you have enough speaker cable to coil then trust me, it is not speaker cable. It is wire. Off a reel.  

If it sounds fine to you, wonderful. You can save a tremendous amount of money. We should all be so lucky. 

Coiled vs uncoiled speaker matters depending on whether the cable is shielded.  Unshielded cable can’t be coiled.  Shielded cable can.  
This is easily testable and is not subtle with ribbon type cable and kills bass.  Traditional wire will sound slightly warm and cause treble to roll off.  This is more subtle.  I have tested this and almost threw out a pair of Nordost speaker cables thinking they must be counterfeit until this was pointed out to me.  

Get rid of the Bryston.  Try a Classe preamp. Matched components matter. 

Here's an inexpensive experiment for you to try.  Are you woofers putting out much sound?  Years ago I had B&W N800's bi wired and bi-amped.  Tubes on top, SS on the bottom.  Eventually Killed it all as no sound benefit.  Suggest you clear the air on connections, cable issues and a possible impedance miss-match to your amp from bi-wire.  Get some old, regular speaker cables or even lamp cord and put the links back on your speakers.  Hook the speakers up straight and listen for a bit.  You may be pleasantly surprised at the increase in sound quality balance and can shop for some warmer regular speaker cables.  Good luck.

In my experience it’s your speakers and speaker placement.

Get rid of the Bryston.  Try a Classe preamp. Matched components matter.

Utter nonsense. Bryston makes some of the most musical amplifiers and products extant. I don't own any, but I worked in great studios with a wall of Brystons.

One of the worst systems I ever heard had Classe components. I've also heard Classe systems to die for.

@kymanor1 - one line zingers are tiresome. This wiring is ILLEGAL:  "I have 2 dedicated lines, each has its own breaker, they share only the ground wire.  Electrician installed. Silent background." from  Audiogon Discussion AC Dedicated Line. Please go away until you have something valid to contribute

B&W are voiced for a ’noticeable’ top-end so in a demo against other speakers they stand out. Today the race is on for detail,detail and detail and you unfortunately have a system that is showcasing this.

The advice to change caps can be ignored at this stage. I am big into the improvement caps can make but you need to get system balance first.

Cables, vibration control, etc. all help and in some cases make huge differences and those too are for experimenting with after the system is performing to the point where you are enjoying it.

There have been suggestions to change the pre-amp which I agree with but, again, later, after, after what?

Your room. You have not described your room nor mentioned if you have any room treatments. I suspect you don’t.

This is important: You will have no happiness unless you treat the room, FACT!

People in the main simply can not conceptualise the importance and effect it has. I can assure you that a system worth 1/3 of yours in a correctly treated room will outperform it to the point your jaw will hit the floor. It was suggested you move the speakers. To prove my point leave the speakers where they are for now and go stand in a solid corner at the back wall and you will hear bass. Big B&W have bass and you are probably sitting in a null. Null? ... look it up.

A DBA will also help with smoothing out peaks and nulls which not only cleans up bass but mids and tops as well. True story.

Consider why you have been asked more than once to describe or post pics of your room. Does this not ring alarm bells that acoustics may be important?  It is more than that, it is the sole determinant of good sound.

Maybe a preamp/amp match...I doubt it.

Most likely it’s the room. My current system is 3x the cost of my previous system in my previous residence. That system, in that room, walks away from my current system (It had early concrete acoustic ceilings). But it took almost a year of trial and error to find that sound.

I agree that Primaluna sounds downright bodacious if you don’t mind a very slight loss in detail.

There is a simple solution.    

Just wait until you are in your late 60's and you won't be able to hear anything above 12khz anyway.    

Problem solved.

Get a turntable and a few records and I am sure it will sound better.

Looks like your speakers go down to 34hz....I would add a subwoofer...then play with placement...then run REW for the final touch....IMO...

Several writers have suggested substituting a vacuum tube preamp.  I would recommend a device based on the 6SN7 such as one of the superb Cary units or Roy Mottram’s Vacuum Tube Audio SP14, which is an excellent bargain.

Some good suggestions and some rather radical suggestions as well.

Do your due diligence and really work on speaker placement.  Mark the location of the speakers before you begin.  You may wish to consult the Cardas Room Setup & Speaker Placement Guide:  Cardas Room Setup Guide
I believe that you will reap great benefits and then tackle some room treatments if need be.  At that point which I hope is successful then you may consider a singular change to dramatically change your sound.
Most folks are suggesting to ditch your SS Preamp and go to a Valve Preamp.  Preamps are a very difficult and critical component to get really right.  Lots of mediocre and very bad preamps to choose from.  Audible Illusions makes sonically good preamps with one caveat.  They don't drive very long interconnects (at least that's what I've read).  The M3B has twin triodes and is a full function pre and has an option for phono boards for low output MC.  It was my second choice but I opted for the Sutherland Engineering N1.   
Take it one step at a time.
Best

About 12 responses ago, the OP added new info that that ML CD player sounded sterile , detailed, but thin.  The Arcam CD player gave a warmer sound with fatter bass.

I currently owned the 802N and my experience was not enough bass like the cheaper pair of B&W 683.  I have a McIntosh C-42 into MC252 at 250 wpc.  The highs and mids are to die for, lots of details, but bass was just thin.  And this is making use of the wall boundaries, etc.  I gave up and just added an old B&W ASW1000 sub, and the sub volume at very minimum, just a tad to fill in the hole and the whole system sounds great now.  Saved me from a lot of stress of trying to tweak the system and not get to enjoy my music with the money I spent.

The Classe amps are supposed to be the best match for those 802's as I read somewhere that they were voiced that way.  I agree with others that the Bryston pre is analytical, and there are no tone controls (?) , so you cannot even boost the bass on some CDs.  

I don't have anything to suggest as there were about 100 suggestions already, but I think I know how you feel, and good luck.  Please post back once you find the working combination!!

Compared to putting in a new major component, such as an amp or preamp, it is relatively easier and less expensive to swap out fuses, interconnects and speaker cables but these latter changes yield little, if any, improvement in SQ.

I would agree with Russ69 a tube preamp will go a long way in creating the sound you are shooting for.  A Cary SLP98 or 05 would be my choice but use your ears.   Then room treatments.   With the room treatments you don't have to get fancy,  plants, flowers and rugs/tapestries go a long way and have a better aesthetic keeping the other half happy.

     Build some good subs out of some old cabinets, then get a good preamp and amp to control them separately.  It works for my older 803's.  B&W tends to sacrifice bass output for accuracy.  Your speakers are great, but B&W also prices their speaker so high that we need a dedicated listening room of the exact size, or smaller, for them to function properly.     .In my bedroom, my speaker sound awesome, but in my main 35 x 25 room, with 14 foot ceilings, I need extra bass on most recordings.
     Time align the subs with the speakers by measuring the drivers.  The center of the sub magnet should be parallel with the center of your 802 woofer magnets.I did have Classe electronics (A bunch of it that was given to me), did not prefer it to my Audire, especially in the bass, I could have been perfectly happy with it.  Ditto for my gift Bryston pre-amp (Now on TV system), which was pretty much bassless with my subs, both with the Bryston and Audire amps, so that is another thing to try out. 
     Another thing?  Do you have tone controls?  I do not, but with one of the Classe preamps, it worked well with some bass boost.

Fanny,  just toe the speakers out quarter of a inch  I understand the speakers but should be fine after 

First understand that B&W Group includes Classe and Rotel. Any Store/Salesperson will be inclined to sell/pair any combination of these units regardless of performance. A more modern version of this is McIntosh paired with Sonus Faber. That Said...

The B&W 802D has a tight Frequency Response - 28Hz - 34KHz. Typically you want a speaker that can capture as much of the frequency range as possible say - assuming your budget falls within the components you purchased you should be looking for speakers that perform within 23Hz - 40KHz. The frequency response will guide you towards your final choice which will be made with your Ears.

If you are looking to extract as much performance out of your existing set up, I agree with those who have stated -

You need more power driving your Power Amps. Look at your power delivery. If you are using Stock Power Cables your Amps are probably not even operating at 50% capacity. Check out Puritan Audio Labs, Audience Adept Response for Conditioners - For cables in this assumed price range  I like the Analysis Plus Silver.  

Invest in a Substantial - Tube Pre Amp, CJ is a great build and has some solid deals, Rogue Audio, Backert Labs, BAT, Older AR - before The McIntosh Group.

Invest in better Cables - Cable Company has a Library Program which is a great resource. Other companies are Silversmith Audio - Fidelium Cables, Tempo Electric, Thales, Analysis Plus.

After making these changes, I would suggest the next Investment be in a Pair of Subs, IMHO - REL 510 will get your Frequency response down to 20Hz.

Finally your CD Player - I would look towards a Player with a VRDS Mechanism. Developed by TEAC - Esoteric Player are built around the mechanism. Philips I believed just released their version of the Mechanism within the last couple of years. 

I have always found better deals/ more bang for buck in the used market.
Good Luck

What power conditioning and noise control are you using.  Dedicated lines for your amps, pre amp and digital gear will add life.
Separate power conditioners for your pre amp and digital gear will help with noise.
Keeping all SMPS's off your AC lines for your gear is essential.
I have found PS Noise Harvesters very helpful.  I have almost a dozen.

"....If you are using Stock Power Cables your Amps are probably not even operating at 50% capacity...."

Total and complete nonsense!

We had issues with a new preamp, for quite a while,
   Switched from one preamp to a much more expensive one with a nice power supply,.
  We lost our deep bass, it seemed so average, and plain, after a while, few months, she came around, warmed up, moved speakers, added pillows behind the speakers,
   Eventually, everything came into laser focus to my ears. 
   I still use old late 80’s early 90’s audioquest cables.
only add ons were the shielded Belden from preamp to amp, and that helped a lot.

 Lots of factors , try them all, and let your ears make the decision.

  All this has been mentioned above.

I remember some 25 years ago I had a Bryston pre/power - ATC 35 combo and complained about the lack of bass. Which was ridiculous really, since on paper that combo was able to produce a thunderous bass ( just like the OP setup). I even went to the dealer, he quickly put together the same amp and speakers and it produced a monstrous bass. I felt so stupid. But in my room subjectively there was no proper bass.

I measured the freq. response, and the reason was a strong room mode around 120 Hz at the listening position even at a moderate level, which masked the deeper bass.

I couldn’t move the speakers around much, so added a TacT Room Correction box and flattened that mode. Immediately I got a flat, deep, powerful bass and as a bonus - a much more natural midrange.

You may have something similar. Start with moving the speakers a bit and walking around the room while listening to the bass. Is the upper/mid bass changing dramatically? Can you find a listening position where the deeper bass goes low and you can feel it properly?

If that’s the case, you may need some extensive room treatment, which is a lot of work, or some digital eq like Lyngdorf Room Perfect which is not cheap, or a new speakers/ amp combo that will behave differently in that region. Probably some good 2-way standmounts.

When I was starting, I had that Idea of a big speaker that will give me a big bass. The reality proved to be a bit more complicated. The subjectively flattest and deepest bass in my room, not using digital room correction, came from a relatively compact quarter-pipe standmound.

Your wall sockets are not properly grounded . Need a electrician