Musicality. The gestalt of the component... overall presentation. It is too easy to concentrate on fine details, transients, micro textures, width of the soundstage, image size, etc, and completely miss stepping back and considering if it creates compelling music.
I have owned high end / audiophile audio equipment and home theater components for fifty years. In that time certainly owning many more than 100 components and only two needed service of any kind (one audio and one home theater). Many pieces of equipment I have owned for over twenty years.
|
I’m typically looking for technical innovations that might raise the bar. Other than that I always look for good value delivered and take resale value into account. Also always consider how well any new component will integrate into the room and system.
Looks also matter. 👌
|
Your room/speaker coupling and treatment is more important than any fancy cable, amp, DAC you'd ever buy @2psyop
Chasing anything else is just a futile self convincing that leads to a loop of purchasing syndrome
|
One consideration NEVER looked @ IMO is the FOR SALE market...Too little attention is paid when choosing a component to how many units are active on the for sale market & how many have been sold in the past few months..
Look at mass produced speakers like KEF,HIGHLY touted by Pro reviewers and the forums BUT if you look at the current market & past 3 months you will see they are the #1 most flipped speaker available today..Some will argue that’s because they are also #1 purchased but that just makes my point..There is a reason they are flipped more than any other speaker..
When I choose a component,I want to know people that have bought that component before me are holding on to them..Look at speakers like Reference 3A,Harbeth & Spendor..For every 1 for sale now or sold in the last 3 months there are dozens of KEF,Monitor Audio,Klipsch,JBL & on & on...
|
@kofibaffour you completely missed the point of OP's thread..
|
@freediver when I bought my Blue Circle amp (since sold and easily sold) a main criteria in choosing a new amp was just how many are seen on the used market.
So I could not agree more. Why are certain names more frequently seen for sale than others. It is not because so many were bought. It is because so many are for sale.
I just sold a Musical Fidelity Ñu-Vista 600. An animal not frequently seen on the used market. A very underrated product.
|
I think one of the most overlooked considerations is long-term reliability. Everyone gets caught up in specs and brand reputation, but hardly anyone asks if it will still work perfectly five or ten years from now. I’ve had gear that sounded great at first but developed issues within a couple of years. It’s easy to get swept up by new features, but I’d rather have something that lasts.
|
The crossover in the loudspeaker. I think I'll start a thread on that subject.
|
The equipment’s grip on the reproduction of the emotion of the composition and performance. +1 for @ghdprentice term - musicality and his recommendation to not focus on the usual audiophile criteria. The prerequisite is to experience the emotion of live acoustic and amplified musical performances. Then you can evaluate the equipment’s grip on the music compared to this benchmark. I agree it is unrealistic to expect to bring the music hall to your listening room. However, the equipment should, at a minimum, bring memories of the emotional experience of a live performance, and should evoke similar emotions to the reproduction of music in your home. Yes, it is a personally subjective criterion. However, if the equipment is melodious to you, you will be engulfed in the emotional experience that the recorded composition and performance evokes.
|
Not to hijack since it was mentioned twice I would pose this to the repliers commenting on the "musicality"of a component..How the H do you judge a components musicality if you are considering it for purchase & don’t yet own it?
ONLY the "usual"audiophile criteria can be used at this point of the process!
|
This is by no means the primary consideration, but as a retired person on a comfortable but fixed income, one of the things i always consider is whether a component is desirable by others and can I purchase it for a good price. Can it be flipped quickly, without losing money or at a slight profit.
|
SYSTEM synergy
It may be hard to define in words, but you know when you have it (or lack it.)
A newly selected audio component inserted into your rig can create an audio performance change now ranging from poor/non/optimal to good/ improved.
Think all the daily AGON forum posts asking for new components recommendations.The conflicting responses range widely and all too many simply reflect personal fave bias.
Just because a touted Brand X component seemingly works well in a Respondent system, is no assurance that it will succeed in OP’s system.. “ One size does NOT fit all”…
|
All the things previously mentioned are considerations, I also need to see quality parts, I also much prefer point to point wiring in pre's, amps, speaker crossovers, power supplies extremely important.
|
A mis-match of the preamp and the amp that can hinder the overall performance.
|
@2psyop
My top criteria’s when choosing a gear; does it provide long-term musical connection. More importantly, does it invite me to play more music, not just “audiophile tracks”? Secondly, synergy and lastly designer’s (manufacturer) integrity and accessibility; if and when I need the support of the person or team behind the product.
I have gone through my fair share of components in my pursuit of putting together an audio system that connects you to music intimately. A good audio gear doesn’t just sound good, it changes your behavior; how you feel and appreciate the music.
Reputation matters but resale, it’s a crap shoot :-)
|
For myself, build quality / proven reliability is of the utmost importance. Then after requirement is met ( hopefully), sound quality that brings you closest to live music.
I can’t be bothered by finicky, questionably made products & shipping back expensive & heavy stuff for repairs or modifications. That type of annoyance & frustration would take all of the enjoyment I get out of listen to good music.
For example, I bought a really good turntable/ arm /cartridge over 20 years ago & it still works perfectly & sounds excellent. One new belt & one new cartridge ( mishap w/ a cat). I think in general, smaller American companies have the best chance of providing such consistent quality.
|
@freediver
Musicality, technically comes about primarily from the properties of rhythm & pace and midrange bloom. Understanding the elements are not necessary. You can gauge the from auditioning products and systems, reading reviews and listening to live music. Learning this aspect of music... is probably one of the most overlooked aspects since it is really a gestalt thing and most folks turn on their analytical skills and examine the minute details of the sound as opposed to the overall presentation. Hence, we brought it up as an often overlooked consideration.
|
|
Experience from my professional life. Once the original owners / developers move on or sell out, don't bother anymore with the brand. Passion, vision all disappears in the corporate cookie cutter, sell as much as you can world. Quality and service levels disappear, and often the brand too.
@aewarren absolutely WAF!
|
@freediver Your question is very difficult to articulate a reply to. I will take a chance on being judged mentally infirm and attempt to explain my process, expressed as recommendation or steps to judge musicality. Since this is intimately subjective, the process others use will differ.
First, develop your impression on how live acoustic and amplified music sounds in intimate to concert hall venues. The only caveat is that large arena rock, while it has the ability to evoke much emotion, normally has interfering distractions and distortions, and I do not recommended it for this process. Make mental notes on how the composition and performance evokes emotions in you, and how the sound in the venue contributes to your experience. Also gain an understanding of the sound of studio recording techniques, for studio recordings present a different perspective from the concert hall experience. Identify recordings where the engineering techniques are evident, and where they contribute to the emotion expressed by the composition and performance.
Second, identify recordings that bring memories of the sound of live concerts you attended and more importantly, evoke similar emotions you felt at live concerts. Also, identify studio recordings where the engineering techniques are evident and they contribute to your appreciation of the album. I have some favorites … 2L Recordings MAGNIFICAT - Nidarosdomens jentekor & Trondheimsolistene, Anita Brevik; Stockfish Records Katja Werker feat. Gert Neumann - Contact Myself 2.0: Live; Mercury Living Presence Saint-Saens, Symphony No. 3, Dupre (organist) Pray, Detroit Symphony, Led Zeppelin (1).
Third, find a good dealer and make an appointment for a long listening session. With electronics, I usually get agreement to bring my model to hook up in their system and evaluate their model head to head. It’s work, but worth the effort. For turn tables and speakers, this is not feasible. In these cases a good, confident dealer you have a relationship with will have a return policy, permitting you to evaluate in your home.
Finally, compare the equipment on the basis of the command it has over the composition and performance (musicality) and its ability to evoke emotions. The usual audiophile criteria of timbral accuracy, dynamic response, resolution, leading edge, image density, staging and imaging play their own important part in evoking emotion, and an equipment’s musicality cannot be separated from these usual criteria. However, try not to focus on these individual criteria, but rather, focus on the sum of all performance criteria as musicality. You will know when the magic occurs and you feel the emotion of the composition and performance.
|
I agree with @ghdprentice that musicality includes the properties of rhythm & pace and midrange bloom but as I stated, it is an intimately subjective criterion. I consider timbral accuracy first and foremost, then the ability to reproduce the nuances in tonal and dynamic inflection, including secondary harmonics and ambient decay, as well as image palpability. I guess these are more specific attributes or subsets of rhythm, pace, and bloom.
|
Synergy because the best piece of gear will do anything coupled with the wrong one...
Once bought...
Adressing the three working dimensions:
Mechanical : Speakers vibrations resonance controls...(other gear vibration is important too but secondary compared to speakers)
Electrical : Wall plug and central panel control of interferences...
But mostly overlooked , the necessary well grounding of dac, amp and preamp...
Acoustical: the system/room various parameters control... Balance between diffusion,reflection,absorbtion and control over these ... What is very overlooked is the power of the Helmholtz resonators by their parameters adjustment and their location to tune and tame a room...
|
@jsalerno277
Agreed, there are other sonic aspects that must be correct as well.
|
What is the most overlooked consideration?
For over sixty years, starting when I was just a kid, I’ve seen/listened to all kinds of systems, from setups built on spare change to rooms well into six figures. And time and time again, the room—the room!—is the most overlooked element.
I’d never call anyone’s system their “ugly baby”—that’s not my style. But if the room is well-designed or even in somewhat treated ones, achieving audio nirvana doesn’t take much (even if you’re listening to Nirvana).
Dust bunnies and cobwebs in the corners? Those are just the marks of a truly content soul.
|
+1 @ghdprentice musicality
++1 @jsalerno277 I consider timbral accuracy first and foremost, then the ability to reproduce the nuances in tonal and dynamic inflection ...
Both well said. I will place timbral accuracy over the top as well. Sometime these two are not mutually exclusive. For example, timbre accuracy facilitates how we perceive and segregate different instruments in orchestra / symphony music reproduction, affecting our overall emotional response to a piece.
|
What is seriously overlooked is "grounding issue" easily solved if we know how, But the most overlooked are acoustics concepts (not audio concepts),( timbre is an acoustic concept as is the ration ASW /LEV and the way to control it,our room is an Helmholtz resonator then how to control it etc )
|
@mahgister seriously overlooked is "grounding issue"
Very true.
|
+1 properly treating the room
|
The perception of timbre can indeed be influenced by room acoustics—through reflections, absorptions, and resonances that may subtly enhance or diminish certain frequencies. However, these effects are generally minor compared to the intrinsic harmonic content of the sound produced by such components as a DAC or preamp.
Therefore, I respectfully disagree with the assertion that timbre is an acoustic "concept" that can be rationed by the ASW/LEV ratio. To illustrate this, consider a simple experiment: move from your main listening position closer to the speakers, thereby minimizing room acoustic effects. You’ll likely find that the fundamental "color" of the sound remains consistent, reinforcing the idea that timbre is predominantly determined by the source and its harmonic structure.
For example, in the recent (2025) DG recording of Bruch & Korngold featuring Bomsori Kim, the violin’s timbre is authentically rendered through my Topping D90 III Discrete DAC. In contrast, when using a more affordable AKM-based DAC, the violin’s sound becomes warmer and less engaging. This comparison underscores how a DAC handles the harmonic contents in the conversion process could significantly impact the perceived timbre, beyond the influence of room acoustics.
|
Never thought I would say that, but power management is a key consideration. Outlets, power cords and power plants can transform the sound of a system. I was very skeptical until I experimented with them. No need to go nuts, however. Just need clean stable power. Similar experience with external power supplies vs internal ones.
|
Buying equipment you can buy, try in your listening room with your equipment with the ability to return for no or little money if you’re not happy. That involves Customer service and warranty. I see so many questions online after people have bought equipment and can’t get help from the manufacturer or are looking for where to get gear repaired.
|
Very interesting and thought provoking answers. It’s a way the Audiogon forum can actually help, by sharing ideas, solutions and opinions. It is possible that threads do not have to be filled with arrogance and personal attacks. For those who have a complimentary stereo component or accessory the WAF is another overlooked consideration. No offense intended. Offered by @aewarren and I am in agreement.
|
+1 The room.
2.) Psychology. Does it really sound different, or do I only think it has to sound different? Is it better, or do I think it has to be better because I spent more?
|
The simple answer is:
Understanding how a component produces music which comes down to the build and the parts used like the transformer, power supply design and capacitors used, etc.
Without knowing this, you are just buying one brand or another.
|
|
@oberoniaomnia Absolutely. Also, feelings of inadequacy, FOMO, and blind faith and willful ignorance sometimes lurk in the background.
@bigkidz It sure helps to understand what's inside the case, but isn't auditioning the primary decision-making criteria here?
|
@devinplombier to bad you are not in the NYC area where we could show you so then you would know how to select a component then you can narrow down your decision-making. To many people are just going from one manufacturer to another without knowing what makes sound.
Happy Listening.
|
i am sorry to say so and i apologize to said it to you, but you have no idea about acoustics power to modify the sound in all aspects...
I do not say this to diminish the importance of picking a good dac....It is fundamental too ...As Acoustics is...
Nothing replace the mechanical (vibrations/resonance controls),or the electrical control, (Gounding,EMI protection,DC filterings) or acoustical controls of system/room.
The electrical controls dont replace the mechanical controls and neither replace acoustical controls...
No dac choice will improve a system in a bad room which speakers are badly vibrating and resonant and which no gear is properly grounded with no EMI protection and no filtering of DC....
But the most important factor is Acoustic control as the more powerful at the end of all ...
The perception of timbre can indeed be influenced by room acoustics—through reflections, absorptions, and resonances that may subtly enhance or diminish certain frequencies. However, these effects are generally minor compared to the intrinsic harmonic content of the sound produced by such components as a DAC or preamp.
|
from my recent experience: the effect of a hype. Some gear are so mediocre and yet they make the review round as the best thing since sliced bread and nobody wants to say The Emperor has no clothes.
|
Therefore, I respectfully disagree with the assertion that timbre is an acoustic "concept" that can be rationed by the ASW/LEV ratio. To illustrate this, consider a simple experiment: move from your main listening position closer to the speakers, thereby minimizing room acoustic effects. You’ll likely find that the fundamental "color" of the sound remains consistent, reinforcing the idea that timbre is predominantly determined by the source and its harmonic structure.
First Timbre pertain to the microdynamics of the vibrating object (violin) and is perceived very differently in a room or concert Hall in function of the position of the listener...Timbre is at the same time an objective and subjective concept because his evaluation is subjective...
ASW/LV is not a concept defining Timbre "per se" as you wrongfully claimed misreading me but a ratio between sound source width and immersive listening impression which ratio we must control by controlling the balance between reflection/absorption/diffusion in a room and controlling also the zones pressures distribution by using tunable mechanical Helmholtz resonators (in my case)
Timbre cannot be encoded digitally well if it is not recorded well to begin with in a specific controlled acoustic room (concert hall or recording studio)... It is why sound engineer own a pair of biologically created ears...
Not only that but for sure if the dac is not good the timbre perception will be not good, but it way more difficult and essential to control room acoustic with a good or with a bad dac anyway... Why ? because you do not hear just the dac design you hear it through the Speakers/room interaction directly...
Takes the speed of sound and divide it by the room dimensions to know how many times the sound waves will struck you ears in one second...timbre perception depend of your location in your room as in your concert hall...
Timbre is an analog acoustic perceived phenomenon informing us about the qualitative state of a vibrating body (violin or guitar or drum etc )... Your dac only code and decode the analog waves... The fundamental steps are the recording step and the play back step in your room...Dac matter but it is way more easy to purchase a relatively good dac than a good room...
Publicity for gear and marketers and sellers and reviewers dont say all the truth to sell a dac precisely among other piece of gear...
Acoustics rules...
But is it necessary to specify that acoustics controls cannot replace a bad dac and compensate for it, nor acoustic cannot replace the bad grounding of this dac at any price... ( all gear must be well grounded and no one pay attention to this between their upgrades race)
|
I have to say, your definition / reasoning of microdynamics versus timbre doesn't seem accurate. I'm not sure where that interpretation came from. Microdynamics refers to subtle changes in loudness / volume or fine-level details of the sound over short timescales. Timbre is the tonal color, i.e., warm vs cold / bright, or quality, i.e., rich vs lean, of a sound allowing one to differentiate different instruments or voices.
|
i was speaking of the vibrating sound source, for example a vibrating violin, under the touch of a musician which total resulting microdynamics created a timbre quality perceived differently from different location... This timbre qualia inform us about the state of the vibrating sound source and even about the state of the musician touch...
I never spoke of microdynamics versus timbre...you misread my posts...
I have to say, your definition / reasoning of microdynamics versus timbre doesn’t seem accurate. I’m not sure where that interpretation came from. Microdynamics refers to subtle changes in loudness / volume or fine-level details of the sound over short timescales. Timbre is the tonal color, i.e., warm vs cold / bright, or quality, i.e., rich vs lean, of a sound allowing one to differentiate different instruments or voices.
|
I suggest everyone here look up the meaning of "musicality". The "performance" and "composition", ime, is what I listen for, from my recordings. Timbre and tonal color, while important, has been changed from reality, once the mic and mixing console has been brought into the picture. Here is a question, as an example. Take your favorite musician (let’s use a vocalist for this), place this vocalist in two different settings. (1) a grand concert hall, (2) an airport bathroom. What will sound better? Now, take a mediocre vocalist who is not very good, and place him/her in the same two locations. What will sound better? I would always take the concert hall scenario for the acoustics, but if I was given a choice, I would rather listen to the better vocalist in the bathroom, vs. the inferior vocalist in a concert hall. This is me, and I look/listen for the performance 1st. What I am saying here is, I have heard so many multi thousand $ systems in bad rooms, and average systems in great rooms. Listening for the performance and composition over everything else, would determine which I prefer......and let’s not forget...the reality is, the recordings for many audiophiles, are the bottlenecks with the entire sq presentation. This is why so many listen only to those rare "great recordings", and pass, on some excellent performances and compositions. I know some of this might not make sense, but......comparing live, unamplified music to recordings, is a destination we will never get to......for timber, warmth, etc. The performance, and the composition....these two elements are in all of our recordings. So, buying a piece of gear, because it seems to get the timbre right? The timbre has been altered already. What about the microphones, the selected placement of the mics, and everything else down the line prior to our ears experiencing it....this is generally decided by the producer and maybe the artists........my current system is less expensive than what I once had (my choice), and it brings me greater enjoyment to the two basic characteristics I listen for. Honestly, this is some rant, if there ever was one. BTW, I would take the bathroom scenario any day, to hear the better vocalist, if it came down to it......whatever works best for you.......can you guess my answer to the question asked? My best, MrD.
|
In a flawed by design stereo system (See Dr. Edgar Choueiri papers here ),
there is no "mythical" reproduction of the timbre experience, which is also not only a tone experience but a dynamic experience (the way the musician hands touch the guitar strings for example ) There is only a translation of the recording trade-off choices of the recording engineer room & micros parameters according to the acoustics parameters of your room system...
i dont listen to a dac, i listen to the timbre experience in real life and in playback to learn how to make an improvement in the acoustics parameters of my room to improve not the impossible reproduction but the acoustical optimal translation of the recording choices in my own room ...
Acoustics rules audio not the reverse...
The performance, and the composition....these two elements are in all of our recordings. So, buying a piece of gear, because it seems to get the timbre right? The timbre has been altered already. What about the microphones, the selected placement of the mics, and everything else down the line prior to our ears experiencing it....
|
To answer the OP question i will write only one sentence :
It is useless to buy a 5,000 bucks dac if this dac is not as most dac in most system properly grounded ...
The most important lesson in audio comes not from upgrading experiences contrary to what most think boasting about their gear pieces tastes (price and results);
It comes from proper electrical,mechanical and acoustical working optimization process...
It ask for time not for money, it ask for acoustics studying and experiments not about audio reviews study...
|
I never spoke of microdynamics versus timbre...you misread my posts...
Before blaming someone for misreading your post, take a moment to review what you actually wrote. Yes, of course — everything about sound is vibration; no vibration, no sound. But you specifically brought microdynamics into the discussion, which led to a confusing and incorrect statement. Please do not misuse terminology here. Microdynamics do not create or lead to timbral characteristics — not if you truly understand what you're talking about.
First Timbre pertain to the microdynamics of the vibrating object ...
i was speaking of the vibrating sound source, for example a vibrating violin, under the touch of a musician which total resulting microdynamics created a timbre quality perceived differently from different location...
As explained earlier, timbre is tonal color of sound and is fundamentally defined by the spectrum of harmonics and their relative amplitudes. (https://www.britannica.com/science/timbre). Therefore, harmonic content has more direct, effective control over timbre. One can use various means such as choice of DAC/filters, tubes, EQ to directly / effectively shape timbre. It is well known that adding or reducing second and third harmonics gives a warm or more clinical tone respectively — a direct change in timbre. Here is an actual example presented by GoldSound in measuing one of the Smsl DACs.
On the other hand, room acoustics have an indirect and relatively moderate influence on timbre. While they can affect the perception of sound, they do not alter the fundamental harmonic structure of the source. If you begin with a room or listening space with poor acoustics, treating the room will, of course, lead to a dramatic improvement in overall sound characteristics. However, this does not justify the misleading claim that room acoustics are the more dominant factor in timbre accuracy or shaping. That is why a lot of audiophiles continuously roll the tubes, change/upgrade DAC (r2r, hybrid), preamp, etc.
|
Overlooked. Options you didn't know about when you made a move.
I used to work for a billionaire. All he wanted was knowledge. His options.
He got fed up with consumer audio and got three bids from pro audio contractors.
|
|
