The Rapid Rise (& Fall) of the CD

I have no doubt that streaming offers better SQ than I can get from my vinyl and CD's. So many very experienced people have attested to that. However, I can not stream due to where I live.I get very unreliable and poor quality land line DSL service. I haven't saved money by not having to invest in streaming gear because I upgrade CD equipment along with the rest of the gear.  I am even toying with a TT upgrade from my VPI. Oh well, it never ends. I do like being able to go to my fave place, Music Millenium, in Portland,OR and perusing the vast wall of used CD's. And walking out with a pile of new to me stuff. Life is good.

Well if you look you will find mint cds for Cheap...but you have to search.I found a antique store that had lps they were 10,20,30 bucks used in very good condition  .while searching I found a  Cd Gold mine, cds were sealed or in mint condition, for $5 bucks each ,OK I have found them as cheap as a buck....But these cds were sealed Japanese with OBIs,Sealed cd double sets,triple set ,even4 ,5,cd set Sealed for $ 5 bucks....I bought 12 loo Grateful Dead Rhino reissue HCCD mult tracks on each .Plus Doors Strange Days and LA woman Japanese OBI sealed.I ended up buying 25 cds....Well I went back the next day and bought every Japanese sealed obi cds,Pink Floyd, Beatles, Thin Lizzy, John Mayall,Kinks,Rolling Stones..and others.Well I bought all they had another 25...This place had Hundreds to look through. I hadn't been there in like a year,they never had a cd collection like this,one of the guys told me he was getting alot more in ....this is a,big place with lots of aisles to go through but ,I will be going back...these Japanese obi cds, sell for 20 to 50 bucks apiece...Oh ,it's on Long Island......

I always enjoy these dialogues. I'm probably in the "upper age range" of participants on this forum.  As a youngster growing up in the fifties (baby boomer) my parents had a large collection of records they played on a Zenith console.  That was my first exposure to recorded music.  I loved it.  One uncle was into reel to reel tape recorders and I loved that sound.  Time marched on and another uncle had his Caddy with the optional record player.  Sounded good as long as the car was not moving:)  Then 8 tracks (invented by Bill Lear of Lear Jet fame in conjunction with FMC) came in the mid 60s and went into oblivion less than 20 years later. It was the only viable recorded media solution for automobiles at the time.  That was followed by tape cassettes which are still around but mainly for non musical use.  Then CDs came into the fray.  I was married to vinyl and it took me a while appreciate the CD format.  To my ears Cds sounded "different" and it took me a while to warm up to the new format.  My first player was a Kyocera DA-610CX.  Now fast forward to the present.  I'm getting into streaming to "sample" different musical genres but it is not my primary listening source,  I am fortunate enough to have TTs, Cd players,etc that allow me to enjoy any type of media any any time. IMO vinyl and CD will always be viable formats and will fluctuate in popularity.  The pleasure will always be in the playing, the listening and the our enjoyment of music regardless of format, genre or generation.

Reasons to keep physical media (from the Stereophile piece just posted):

1. Control. Streaming services may not exist forever. The financial health of even Qobuz and Tidal "is largely unknown." 

2. Control. Streaming services often don't provide information about which version or mastering of a given "song" is being played. 

3. Control. Searching on streaming services, even using Roon, is often difficult or even impossible. If you keep your CDs in a sensible order, you can find what you're looking for very easily.

4. Control. With so-called classical music, there's a lot of information one wants to know that streaming services rarely provide. The Strereophile essay indicates that, with a given symphony, it was impossible to determine from the stream which orchestra was performing it! But what about when the recording was made? (Von Karajan recorded Beethoven's Ninth at least four times, three times with the BPO, but streaming services rarely reveal this kind of information.) How about where it was recorded? Audiophiles speak of hearing the venue's ambiance on a superlative recording. But streamed recordings will rarely, if ever, identify what that venue was. And streaming services identify "songs," as mentioned above, which can be movements in a larger orchestral or instrumental piece. That fact can be obscured or even effaced.

An interesting piece appeared recently in Stereophile about this topic. It concedes the statistical decline in CD (and vinyl) sales in favor of streaming, but then argues for keeping one's physical media for a variety of excellent reasons. Here's a link: https://www.stereophile.com/content/it-isnt-just-music

@mapman 

yeah, they make great coasters.

bent

+1 @kennymacc -

I totally agree with what you said about CDs and LP . When my age group is gone, those two formats will pretty-much dissolve. I have almost 600 LP’s and 350 CDs. CDs are with five bucks used. LPs are on average worth $10. By comparison Neil Young 50+ whatever year old LP, everybody knows this is nowhere, sells for $30. Who would buy new LPs of poor recording quality because you can get the same poor quality for a subscription To an audio service. The vinyl industry is really shooting itself straight in the mouth by doing stuff like that. My local record store will give me half of what an LP sells for on Discogs. That means my album is worth $30 cause I kept it for 100 years I get $15 for it. I hate Discogs! 
There’s my take on the dissolution of quality audio.

BENT!

CD's burned from Qobuz .wav files are really quite good.

These forum battles over who is right are part and parcel of a venerable American tradition whichever side of the political aisle you are on.

Patton Marches On

Just about the same time I was considering buying a CD player in 1985 my wife gave me the best Christmas present EVER! A Rega Planar 2 TT with a Linn K-9 cart.  It was a complete surprise to me. A dealer in a local hi-fi shop suggested it.  The Rega replaced a somewhat rickety, gear driven, automatic Japanese table.  What a difference -- quiet, accurate unvarying (to my ears) speed, detail, and drive that I had never heard in my home before.  I did buy a CD player because, you know, the handwriting was on the wall: LPs were a dying medium and digital was the future, right? Eventually I began upgrading my system and acquired an excellent CD player and a better turntable.  Not all of my CDs sound great, but some are spectacular.  I can say the same for my LPs.  As I continued to improve my system I made a non-binding contract with myself.  I would try to maintain equal quality in my digital and analog gear.  I have amended the contract to include streaming.  Usually when I sit down for a serious listen in the evening pull out some LPs.  There is just something a little more beguiling in good vinyl playback.  But sometimes I play favorite CDs.  And sometimes I go exploring for new music on Tidal.  Any of these mediums can put me in the zone.  So is there a lesson in my tale and the others that have been told above?  You bet.  We are not in control of the media du jour.  From the time Mr. Edison invented his little machine business decisions have ruled the recorded music market.  Music enthusiasts have demanded improvements in every medium that were not enthusiastically embraced by big corporate execs.  But we are an insistent lot and there are enough of us to create a vibrant niche market where analog was revivified and the same seems to be happening with the venerable, compromise-ridden red book CD format.  Like many of you I haunt used record stores and treasure some of my finds.  Now I'm going to start hunting up used CDs before the price goes up when, you know, the CD revival takes hold.  By Jove! There are a lot of ways to have fun with this hobby. 

Another appearance of a religious argument on the music forums.

Inherit The Noise

CDs still serve a purpose.

The hilarity is in everybody fighting for their antique technology's supremacy. Silicon Valley was built ignoring the engineer's maxim of waste heat undermining efficiency. I lived there. I heard very rich tech people ridiculing efficiency as their products require massive cooling infrastructure as the planet's potable water disappears. They change the subject when you ask about superconductors, or even an inverter that will last longer than a pair of socks. 

I'm glad CDs are "dying". Lots of inexpensive music is popping up at the local record store, and unless they are poorly mastered, CDs can sound fantastic with a good player. 

Growing up, I owned a couple LP's, then got a cassette deck, stopped with LP's. Then CD's came out, think it was my 12-13th B-day got a Realistic CD player, then just got CD's. In the mid 80's Lp were like $8, Cassettes were $8, and CD's were $14. As a kid, cd's were just the easiest to use, and you can just skip to the song you want. It was a game changer. But no cars has Cd's, would dub Cd's to cassette. 

Then as I got older, purchased less CD's, listened to the radio more.... Apple came out with the iPod. All my music purchases were though iTunes, didn't buy any physical media for a long time.  Dubbed ALL my Cd's to iTunes. Sold my 200 CD changer, all my disc when into the basement. You could download an entire album with digital artwork for $10!

Just discovered Spotify a couple years ago, like it, get to listen to anything I want anytime. Sound quality is all over the place. Late last year moved over to Tidal, much better in every way, except it needs a lot more bandwidth. Kind of sucks when traveling with low signal. 

Almost 2 years ago now, got back into vinyl. Have no idea what happened to all my old stuff, but starting over from 0. Even buying a lot used, prices are $25-50 per album! CD's are now $10, and cassettes are making a comeback! 

For me LP's sound best, there is just something magical about how they sound. They are also the most work! You got to keep everything clean, things wear out. New albums tend to be shorter, so now a lot of albums are 2-4 LP's, lots of flipping disk. My main rig doesn't even have a Cd player. But all my discs are stored on a HDD attached to my streamer.

My kid 13yo is heavy into Cd's, my wallet can testify of it. We also get a few things on LP, but my kid has a CD player in their room, and doesn't want a record player.  

Was reading a report on how LP sales have been on a steady incline. The highest since the decline in the 70's . This report also said that 1 in 4 LP's is Taylor Swift and almost 50% DO NOT own a record player!! 

Well, when I made the post I sincerely thought people might enjoy learning some of the details about how the CD was developed....like The physical reasons for different specifications and the collaboration and competition between Philips and Sony. 

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised when a war of what source is best broke out... LOL.

We all listen to our music in a way that suits us the best and that's all that matters.

Cheers

70% of what I buy on vinyl is not available on streaming. That said, if only streaming was available from tomorrow on, I would still survive and still be happy listening to music.

Why can't we just argue about cables not making a difference like normal people?

We need to be careful about selling all our CDs and vinyl just because these streaming services have taken over. There are several scenarios that could happen like musicians taking their music off the streaming services or the streaming services raising their rates to exorbitant levels. Once the streaming services think they have a monopoly, that's when rates might start to rise. Also, I couldn't listen to Neil Young for a long time except for what I had purchased because he wasn't on Spotify. 

Granted, one of the best things about CDs was the ability to listen in the car and most new cars don't even have an option for a CD player anymore but remember, when you have a streaming service you own nothing but when you purchase a CD or vinyl, you own that music. Just stuff to keep in mind.

I was at the AES Convention in NY at the Javitz Center when SONY first showed there CD player. The line to there Demo booth was long. The player was $700.00.

They had a Distro system set up with 5 headphones so you could listen to the Player. We all thought this was the bomb...!!

Now ...DAC's are popping up to go back to analog..LMAO.

Honestly, I think it's all pretty good. 

We have LPs for the "analogue forever" crowd. There's CDs for those who simply must have 0% background noise. And we have digital streaming for pretty much the ultimate in convenience, access and variety. There's pros and cons to each system and I for one enjoy all of them.

And on top of all that, the gear to listen to it all keeps getting better and better.

I dare say we're living in a Golden Age right here, right now. 

Happy listening.

@mahler123

"I had written before about my nephew, otherwise a fairly intelligent guy, buying an lp and then being shocked to learn he couldn’t play it in a computer disc drive. One of my son’s girlfriend, who truly is an idiot, buys LPs and plays them them on some box of a contraption that includes a turn table, speakers, usb port and Bluetooth transmitter. It retails for $50 and she then raves about the sound of her $40 Barnes and Noble vinyls."

LOL! Thanks mahler123, made my day ;)

Cranky old men talking past one another on a forum about the death and revival of physical media is quite entertaining to read. As audiophiles, we're stuck on the idea that people purchasing physical media is heavily weighted by a desire for good sound quality. Nothing could be further from the truth. Streaming is viewed as personalized radio listening for 95% of the listening consumers, SQ has nothing to do with it but convenience does. Those who buy the physical formats/digital downloads do so because they collect music first and foremost and for a variety of reasons - nostalgia, sound quality, resale, etc. 

I work with a lot of young people every day. Everyone in my office is under 45 with the exception of myself. Those who do buy vinyl buy it because they like the sound of vinyl (cracks, pops, hiss) and are most likely listening to that vinyl on $300 wireless TT setup with Bluetooth speakers. Gasp! 

Using the anecdotal evidence of who attends hi-fi shows that vinyl is predominately the purview of Boomers and middle-aged Gen-Xers  because that's who attends the shows is not proof of anything. The hi-fi shows are attracting that demographic because that's the demographic with the disposable income to drop on hi-end components regardless of media format. The average Millennial and Gen-Z looking to up their game will be looking at modest mid-fi upgrades so maybe, they're willing to drop $1500 on an integrated with some wireless speakers.

But I digress. I honestly don't care what format people use to listen to their music. For some of my younger coworkers who are really into music, I've been suggesting that, if they're looking to upgrade their listening experience, even if it's Spotify, perhaps start with their headphones/earbuds first. If they're strictly streamers, buying an upgraded external DAC and headphone amp for their laptop is a step in the right direction.

baylinor sums it up perfectly. It's really about the music; yes we have our favorites but why limit one's self because of the playback medium?

Having around 1500 CD’s, I still have a CDT on both of my systems although I do use the streamer to listen to new music.

Used to purchase cd's on weekly, nearly daily basis, then I found streaming. Continued to purchase cd's much less frequently, and then began to notice the online sellers I frequented inventory getting smaller and smaller, now they're gone.

I understand the continuing interest in vinyl, I have vinyl setup which I continue to use. Don't understand continued interest in cd's, art work not close to vinyl, sound quality nothing unique, I've found streaming superior, vinyl retains it's unique sound qualities. CD drives disposable, I've lost too many to ever go back. Streaming vs. cd, streaming wins on so many counts.

There are +’s and -’s for Everything in life. BUT.....Music is Life and I second the notion that I’ll never Trust anyone else other than Myself ...to supply my ears with the beautiful notes that take me to "another World"....that my friends is why I OWN the music I Love!!

Excellent video. Thanks for sharing

Records and CDs and streaming, it's all great.  I did throw out my 8-tracks and cassettes many years ago.  But I see my local record store is selling them along with 45 singles.  Shows that some will see it as nostalgic, regardless of SQ.

Interesting view points! I personally like Cd's, a lot. They are more convenient to use than records and easier to store. I have the ability to create my own Cd's or DVD's to preserve whatever I want. Cd's work well in the car, providing far better SQ than tapes or radio. CD's only need power to provide music, an internet connection is not required, something that is not always available. The biggest downfall to the CD is they are still attractive to thieves who think nothing of smashing car windows to get them? They also tend to scratch far easier than we were initially led to believe they would be. I do spin my CD's quit a bit at home, I won't be getting rid of them any time soon.

Every shift in nee technology brings a renewed interest in old content. When CDs hit in the 80s there was a ton of material getting released that was 20+ years old and you would need to skip a car payment to afford. Same with the vinyl resurgence of late. I’m more interested in how the shifts affect the available content  myself. As far as I’m concerned, the more times culture changes its mind, the better for me. 

The discussion of physical media in a world of streaming is not new. While I stream music, most of the time, my favorite streaming service is broadcast FM Stereo, played through a decent analog tuner with a good antenna. 

Vinyl was enjoying some popularity with the 30s crowd. They like to display album covers as art work.. I had written before about my nephew, otherwise a fairly intelligent guy, buying an lp and then being shocked to learn he couldn’t play it in a computer disc drive. One of my son’s girlfriend, who truly is an idiot, buys LPs and plays them them on some box of a contraption that includes a turn table, speakers, usb port and Bluetooth transmitter. It retails for $50 and she then raves about the sound of her $40 Barnes and Noble vinyls.

Antique stores are dying. No one wants old big heavy furniture, silver, or china that smells of mold and moth balls. However there will apparently always be a desire for stuff from yester year . Vinyl and CD fill some of that need. It occupies less space, has a higher spousal acceptance factor, and is a lot more functional than a set of dishes that are hauled out twice a year for holiday meals.
The CD players that will fit the antique collectors wants the best are the top loaders and ones that show the spinning disc. After all you can’t watch the bits from a streamer produce music

@kennymacc "If you attend any high end audio show from here to Kalamazoo, you'll see turn tables spinning vinyl records in just about every room.  However, when you look around that room, you'll see practically nobody but middle age older people salivating over the old physical media (and that incudes the people running the room."

Maybe you don't see them because they can't afford at this stage of their lives the equipment displayed at the  high end shows that doesn't mean that they aren't purchasing turntables that they can afford and hence vinyl. Likewise, they may well not be gawking over highend streamers or all in ones but that doesn't sop them from streaming

jmalen123

Precisely.   Happy Listening!

@nonoise .....*smirk*  'Cuz we can be cranky 'philes at the drop of a tonearm?

...ask me if I'm not surprised........

@grislybutter ...instead of points, how 'bout a infused brownie and a cuppa' French Roast with an adult adulterant?  *conspiratorial wink*

...brownEpoints have bottomed out on the markets, anyway... 

for the record, CDs and vinyl records suck. You all should get rid of them. (Just please post them somewhere so that I can buy them cheap. Same with your turntables and CD players ) 

I can always count on @grislybutter not to read between the lines something that isn't there, spinning it to suit his point of view. Why, oh why can't some people accept the notion that there will be contrary points of view on matters? 

I don't begrudge anyone the medium they prefer to listen to so I guess I'll just repeat what I warned earlier about not being so zealous about it. It seems some just can't help themselves.

All the best,
Nonoise

Own no physical media at your own risk. My ability to listen to music will never be solely dependent on someone else. Some group in power could decide my choice of music is "misinformation" and relegate it as criminal.

@kennymacc maybe I can’t read but nowhere I saw @nonoise to be riled up..He was factual and empathetic as always

(I don’t get brownies for this but I should)

If anyone is riled up about one extreme, it seems to be you :)

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/i-sold-my-cd-player-streaming-sounds-so-incredible?page=2

@nonoise I fail so see what you’re getting so riled up about. Because you’re the only one here that’s claiming that anyone’s touting the death of CDs and vinyl. Also, no one has any old axe to grind. Fact is, regardless of what you, or anyone else, are willing to except, and regardless of what the audiophile articles and videos say, the popularity of CD and vinyl are still only mere shadows of their former selves, compared to the heyday years of CD and vinyl (not even a mere shadow). Now, that’s the reality of the new non physical digital media world that we live in today. Whether you like it or not. The good news is, anyone can always opt to enjoy whatever source of musical media that pleasures them, whether is be CD, vinyl, reel to reel, compact cassette tape, or streaming. Happy listening.

If you have a good digital source like transport and dac. Or even a nice sacd player. You can enjoy xrcds, sacd, FIM recordings. I love playing sacds and highend cd recordings, for sacd esoteric and Venus are amazing.

@2psyop  I understand thoroughly.  Don't mean to be so blunt, but my previous post says it all in a nutshell.  That's the true reality of the digital world as we live in it today.  I didn't make it that way.  It just is.  Also, music listening and high end audio is supposed to be a fun, passionate, source of pure pleasure, whether that pleasure comes via cassette deck, vinyl, CD, streaming, or, whatever.  Happy listening.   

CDs outsell Vinyl in Great Britain and Europe (per unit). There are titles you can only get on CD and vice versa with streaming. I can give a tinkers fart how many articles and videos come out touting the death of CDs and Vinyl as it's usually from someone who streams and has an axe to grind (looking for justification of monies spent, tribal associations, looking for those clicks and eyeballs or just a malcontent).

This is getting old and kinda pathetic. Enjoy what you like and have and stop with the proselytizing. It's a stupid hobby and not a religion but if it is for you, get some much needed help.

All the best,
Nonoise

I am 58 and never gave up on vinyl. 
When the CD revolution was released I really tried to like it. I just could not get into the format. Of course when you could not get new vinyl anymore I was forced into CDs. I bought a very expensive at the time CD player thinking that may help (it didn’t) Fast Forward to 2016 my daughter is 11 and she wants to get into vinyl. 
I would take her and her friends used record stores and the kids had a blast. 
My daughter built quite a record collection. Then of course vinyl blew up and my daughter and her friends could not afford a new LP anymore. That is went most of them got into CDs getting most for $1-$2 like the LPs we used to buy. Now CDs are going up $7-$8. Now she and her friends are starting college this year. Rooms are so small no room for a TT or CD player. Which means all streaming now. Point as much as we want our kids to enjoy the old ways it will be overtaken by the present. 
All forms have their good and bad I just hope the music continues forever. 
Happy Listening to whatever way you listen to it. 

Kennymac, not arguing here. I respect all opinions. Some of my younger friends have albums and they listen to them but only a few. I also have friends who go the see movies… this is after dvds, blueray discs and renting media and now streaming. Why do they go to the movie theatre and why didn’t it die out??? Who knows. It certainly is not mainstream, but it’s still alive and kicking.

@2psyop  Well. I'm an older person who was also around when CD was first introduced.  At the time, I was running two turntables, reel to reel, and a cassette tape player.  Later on, I added a CD player to the mix.  Now a days, I stream exclusively.  As I said, CD and vinyl are still around, and I imagine that they'll always be around to some extent.  If you attend any high end audio show from here to Kalamazoo, you'll see turn tables spinning vinyl records in just about every room.  However, when you look around that room, you'll see practically nobody but middle age older people salivating over the old physical media (and that incudes the people running the room).  That's the reality.  Also, I come in contact with lots of younger people through family and friends, and not one of them listen to their music via a CD player, let alone a turn table.  That's the real reality of the situation.  My point being, neither CD or vinyl is the future.  At least not with the young, who are the future.  Happy listening.

Why arguing about what old farts and younger generations like. Big deal, everybody is different and that's a good thing. From 78s to streaming it has always been about the music. Arguing about how to play it is fruitless, to each his own. I do a little bit of each: Vinyl, CD, DVD/ YouTube for concerts on my TV and streaming Qobuz, Tidal and Amazon music for the majority of my listening. All running through my main system in the house of stereo. I sure as heck wouldn't bad mouth any of them. Why limiting yourself to one over the other, they all offer different experiences. Ending each post with happy listening makes you think that blogger would stand by it. 

I'm 57,  I was afraid they would stop making quality players.  I have a lot of CDs, 3 or 4 hundred at least.  Most I like all the way through... 

Two weeks ago I bought a new transport and my CDs have never sounded so good.   I have purchased about 6 CDs since for $3 to $6 , all favorites that I want to own.   

I love my Aurender but it's not quite as good as my transport with 44.1k material.  I think a lot of what is available on streaming is just a sample rate converted version of the original.  It varies so widely between platforms and tracks ...   CD playback is a constant. It's always direct from the disc or buffered like the PS Audio units .   

I'm going to keep grabbing my favorite discs while they are plentiful and cheap. 

https://djmag.com/news/gen-z-listen-more-vinyl-cds-and-cassettes-any-other-age-group-survey-shows

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billrosenblatt/2023/01/16/luminate-data-music-report-the-album-is-once-again-a-vinyl-lp/

An excerpt from the Forbes article

"Vinyl buyers are also likely to be Gen Z. The born-digital generation, now teenagers and young adults, is 27% more likely to purchase vinyl than the average listener; yet it’s also much more likely to discover new music on short online video clips. That is, Gen Zers are likely to watch short clips of music on TikTok and then purchase the music they like on vinyl. And they spend more than twice as much as the average consumer on music"

... and CD’s are gaining in popularity again, there are a good many YouTube vids about this; sales are increasing and there are more CD players and CD transports hitting the market along with it....

Oh, there are YouTube videos so it must be true. 🙄 Some perspective: CD shipments had a relatively tiny blip up since Covid but are still down 96% from where they were at their peak around 25 years ago. US shipments peaked at 943 million in 2000, hit a low of 32 million in 2020 and had a brief bounce to 47 million in 2021 but have since steadily declined back to 37 million in 2023. Hardly a resurgence, and in the investment world we call that a dead cat bounce. CDs will continue to decline from here and are the modern digital iteration of the buggy whip, and any talk about an increase in its popularity is just silly talk and wishful thinking.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/186772/album-shipments-in-the-us-music-industry-since-1999/

kennymac. As a side story, when the CD format was developed (as indicated in that video) I had bought a CD player straight away and enjoyed CD sound. I still had a Thorens TT and was spinning albums too. As time went on, CDs were engineered better and I got rid of my TT and albums. I had thought the format was dead. Well it was for 1-2 decades and now it’s back full tilt. I also have two tube amps even the US stopped making vacuum tubes long ago. I guess the point of this tale is that formats don’t usually die, they will come back eventually. To many audiophiles they sound good enough to enjoy the listening experience.