Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

Enough is enough with Tekton ! 

It's difficult to take ASR seriously.

ASR encourages people to listen to measurements, not the actual product being measured.

I've seen enough of their schtick to last me a lifetime.

Great write-up, Erik. I found the following especially thoughtful.

The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
 

As for ASR, it’s a data point, but I’ve found it difficult to digest the toxic culture over there that Amir low key promotes. He’s the Mark Zuckerberg of audio forums - may be intelligent, but socially inept, deflects when challenged, and lacks self-awareness and accountability. 

@erik_squires I appreciate your perspective. I think we share a respect for the data as we pursue the perfect sound.

Disappointing that the thread on emotional response to tekton went on and on and your thread on the data behind the drama was immediately met with snores.

Keep up the good work.

Jerry

PS the reason that so much effort is put into insexpensive speakers might be that these reviewers have very limited access to more expensive speakers. And I’m sure a more expensive speaker sent for review comes with quite a list of conditions.  NOBODY is going to send an expensive speaker to ASR.

Great post Erik.Actually using logic and a matter of fact tone.

There's a place for measurements. 

But I agree regarding the culture over at ASR and Amir.  He came into the Roon forum to debate Michal Jurewicz from Mytek.  Some of the other members became involved and Amir was quite arrogant and condescending. Some of the more fanatical ASR folks won't leave any room for whatever sound someone likes. 

Oh G-d so tired of Tekton already. Take it or leave it. Same with ASR. I think ASR provides a valuable service. No more perfect than anyone else perhaps but still very valuable.  

But I agree regarding the culture over at ASR and Amir. He came into the Roon forum to debate Michal Jurewicz from Mytek. Some of the other members became involved and Amir was quite arrogant and condescending. Some of the more fanatical ASR folks won’t leave any room for whatever sound someone likes

As for ASR, it’s a data point, but I’ve found it difficult to digest the toxic culture over there that Amir low key promotes. He’s the Mark Zuckerberg of audio forums - may be intelligent, but socially inept, deflects when challenged, and lacks self-awareness and accountability.

At some point (turning back the clock), i recall that he got banned from every forum i know of. When ya talked to him in person, one could draw some parallels between him and the type of piece that gets fired quickly at any workplace...

What else can you do...but start your own forum?! 😏

If the conclusion is $1k speakers are all different and I get to choose the ones I think are best for whatever reason I choose, then I think I must agree. I feel so much better now! 😌

But please do  let me know when it is finally determined without a question of doubt which ones are in fact best. I might, just might, be forced to change my mind. 😱

I view ASR as analogous to putting wine through an analyzer and rating it based on the results.  Humans and machines just don't perceive sound the same way.  

Data makes for a great starting point.  Ears and years take over from there. 😎

Data makes for a great starting point

but it’s one’s ears which subjectively connects to the heart/preference that is unique for each individual.  Seems foolish to think measurements are all that matters, then again there seems there are those who like to live in denial vs maybe facing the truth that better sonics often is costly in this niche hobby 

Just a reminder that the ASR review of the Mini Lore was originally pretty much a nothing burger.  The speaker was OK in ASR's opinion but nothing special.  The review was done last October (2023) and then sat dormant for months.  Things only went south when Eric at Tekton showed up months after the fact (Feb '24) and reopened the thread, accusing them of false data and threatened to sue because he apparently only expects glowing reviews.

The ASR crowd was probably never much of a market for his speakers, and as we can see here, lots of people are not very impressed with the way ASR does reviews.

The smart thing for Tekton to do would have been to wear the review as a badge of honor instead of threatening people. 

In other words, this fracas is a self-inflicted wound for Tekton.

I think that ASR has chosen an extreme stance not for any particular reason except to incite an even greater amount of tribalism in this hobby. Who knows how they really feel or what they believe? What they have done is succeeded in getting members of this forum to discuss a truly forgettable and irrelevant site. 

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

Your intro is incorrect. Klippel Near-field scanner produces full anechoic measurements of the speaker. It is not at all "quasi." In my testing, it uses over 1000 measurement points to then solve the radiation patter of the speaker. In addition, it makes a secondary set of scans which using phase analysis, allows it to extract all effects of the room reflections. The output then is fully anechoic down to lowest frequencies -- something you can’t even do with any realistic anechoic chamber (most stop being anechoic below 80 Hz or so). There is a reason the equipment costs $100K.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

There is no attempt at "nit-picking."  You can't analyze a speaker properly without the full suite of measurements I show from various frequency responses to distortion and directivity.  Only then you have a picture of a speaker performance and can compare it to others.

Believe me, I would love to take shortcuts given how much work it is to test a speaker but I can't.

Running the same set of measurements also eliminates the accusation of bias.  Everything is tested the same way regardless of who makes it, how much it costs, etc.

Finally, $800 is fair bit of money for a speaker.  Even if i were inclined to reduce the number of test, it would be for something far cheaper.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

As I explained above, Klippel NFS fully computes the 3-D sounfield of a speaker.  It does NOT suffer from baffle step issues you mention.  Stereophile measurements though, have this error and hence the reason you routinely see a false bass hump in their frequency response graphs.

Please watch this tutorial video to get proper understanding of ASR speaker measurements:

The ASR crowd was probably never much of a market for his speakers, and as we can see here, lots of people are not very impressed with the way ASR does reviews.

That is a misstatement.  Tekton advertises the M-Lore has having very linear (flat) response which would definitely appeal to ASR membership:

Problem is that it doesn't deliver on that:

But you are right that if Eric Alexander had stuck to the story that measurements don't matter, all would be well. Instead, he complained about the measurements so here we are.

But I agree regarding the culture over at ASR and Amir.  He came into the Roon forum to debate Michal Jurewicz from Mytek.  Some of the other members became involved and Amir was quite arrogant and condescending.

Far more people appreciated my posts than anything from Michal.  He would keep repeating the same marketing stories without a single fact backing them.  I was impressed to see Roon members not appreciate that and valuing specific data, references, etc. that demonstrated his claims to be wrong. 

"Arrogance" in my view is claiming something and demanding to be believed.  I never do that.

I think that ASR has chosen an extreme stance not for any particular reason except to incite an even greater amount of tribalism in this hobby.

Nope.  The "stance" I have taken is follow proper science and engineering.  This uses to be the norm in 1970s and 1980s.  Sometime later, folks started to abandoned this and instead, started to tell stories about products.  Audiophiles bought them and this allowed the market to deliver all manner of products that when tested, don't seem to perform.  Instead of doing their best to produce high fidelity gear, a lot of audio companies rely completely on marketing and informercials pretending to be reviews.

As consumers, you need to be more critical and ask for proof.  Don't equate expense with fidelity.  That equation has long been thrown out the door.

I just don’t see the value in a site that constantly throws shade on high end gear. IMHO

I have no such position on high-end gear. My speakers alone cost $25,000 a pair. Give me the performance and you can charge whatever you want. Give me poor performance and charge a lot of money and we show data to demonstrate that. The choice is that of manufacturer.

Now, if you value status and marketing of audio products more than fidelity, then sure, we are at odds with your goals.

Interesting exchange, mostly. Bashing ASR seems like a ridiculous thing to do. Nice to see Erik taking a swing at some rational elements in play and Amir for correcting what he considers false or inaccurate claims.

There are many things about measurement I don’t understand, but I don’t dismiss their general relevance.

Two things stand most in the way for me about the usefulness of measurements:

1. How does a given measurement translate into something I might be able to hear (or perceive), and what words would I use for the subjective experience?

2. How important is a measurement, overall, for a piece of equipment’s performance -- and in what ways would I be able to hear (perceive) that measurement’s impact?

Complicating (1) and (2) of course is the lack of a common and accurate vocabulary for what we perceive and also our room’s contributions. (And I’m not even mentioning taste/preference.)

The above problems I have with measurement are, in part, my lack of understanding; the other part of the problem is the lack of a "Rosetta stone" connecting the vocabularies of objective measurement and subjective description of perception. But these two problems are not with measurement, per se.

And yes, there are those who want to avoid the whole complicated mess by *just* going with measurements or *just* going with description (stories), but to my mind this just amounts to an obstinate refusal to engage with the complexities. (And neither Amir nor Erik do this, N.B.)

Amir, almost no one disputes that measurements are an important contribution to evaluating hifi gear.

The problem I have with ASR and its followers is the routine contempt heaped on anyone with a different POV from ASR gospel. 

Apropos, for me, it is the underlying arrogance born of groupthink that stinks also of Narcissism.

I admit only casually having looked at ASR and I don't recall but wonder if they include measurements relating to dynamic linearity, how linear relative to input level changes(from micro to mini to midi to macro changes) and this should also relate to these changes versus frequency. I find this type of change may be the most significant(should never be the only one) factor in a speaker producing the illusion of reality. 

1. How does a given measurement translate into something I might be able to hear (or perceive), and what words would I use for the subjective experience?

At the risk of stating the obvious, frequency response variations of a speaker are pretty audible.  Too much bass would bring boominess.  Too much treble would sound bright.  Midrange can cause vocals to become forward or recessed.

Traditional frequency response measurements only showed direct/on-axis sound.  Across some 40 years of research, we have learned that reflections (off-axis) sounds contribute to the tonality that we hear and hence, also help set preference.  As such, we want to see speakers that have off-axis response that is similar to on axis.  A standardized set of measurement axis exist that makes such analysis easier (so called CEA/CTA-2034). 

Measurements can also tell you optimal listening angles, both vertically and horizontally.

Further, the beam width or amount of spread you get at mid to high frequencies can predict whether the soundstage will be more diffused and wider, or more pinpoint.  

Harder to assess are distortion measurements although all else being equal, you do want a speaker with less distortion.  Ultimately though, I use my ear to determine the level of impairment here with specialized music tracks that stress speakers, especially in bass and sub-bass where they have most distortion.

Finally, things like impedance measurement together with speaker sensitivity tell us how easy it is to drive the speaker, how much power you may need, etc.

All in all, speaker measurements are about 70 to 80% instructive.  As such, I recommend using them to weed out the bad products and create a short list to listen and select from.  We do however have many who buy by measurements alone and have had great success.

The problem I have with ASR and its followers is the routine contempt heaped on anyone with a different POV from ASR gospel. 

We are not a church and don't have gospel.  We follow establish audio science and engineering.  And rely on what we can prove.

If you say there are qualities in a speaker wire that can't be measured, then we are at odds with each other.  This violates both factors above.

Contrary to claims of people, we hugely value listening tests.  We just ask that they be bias controlled for the same reasons.  This means anecdotal statements that this and that sounds better to your "ear" while you had your eyes wide open, don't get a positive reception.

Mind you, you can have all of these views and be just fine in ASR.  We have plenty of subjectivists that way.  The issue comes up is when you take on the membership and try to tell them how it is done.  Naturally you get strong pushback. But that is something you are bringing onto yourself.

I think the original post is educational in that it explains that data should be obtained in a more lifelike situations 1 inch away most people don't listen that close.sometimes the car dyno sheet does not equal how the overall car performes.sorry I missed the expo in Chicago even though it may not be the best rooms for speakers it give you an idea to listen to alot and compairs with your own ears and tastes.there are many car manufactures because not everyone likes 1 choice.and they have reviewers too.enjoy the music.t

For one ASR imo has no credibility ,there are tons of youngsters that know -0 about real time experiences ,and the way they measure.

a perfect example I had mentioned for the money how good the Denafrips Terminator 2 dac was for the money ,and they are giving a comparison just how much better the $800 Topping measured , sonically the Denafrips is light years better sounding, and I ripped into them and all their childish antics . Myself have been an Audiophile-over 40 years and travel and listen to a lot-of gear ,and having-owned a audio store for a decade I have a pretty good grasp on sonics and reality .

I got banned for telling it like it is and their measurement based logic .most of these 

guys have budget audio systems  and comments like your dac is not a true R2R .most have never listened to many things they can’t afford and they go by someones measurement stats. If this were the case the Vacuum tube amp would have been gone many decades ago for a good solid state amp measures better. Your ears and how well it’s built has a lot to do with the final result. Banning me was good I no longer have to waste my time on their petty behavior !!

If you read what Amir has said in these last posts you can clearly see the problem. Just a rehash of an age old debate within this hobby. 

I love the statement: "We follow established audio science and engineering". Who, what and when?  

Is that how you talk about your doctor?  That all of them follow medical science and insist on that type of approach to your health, they are now guilty of group think and narcissism???

I think a large number of people do exactly that, as evidenced by the resistance to public health policy we witnessed during the COVID pandemic.  Anti-science is not limited to the healthcare sphere.  

The hallmark of proper scientific pursuit is a willingness to adapt accepted models to accommodate conflicting data when the data is validated appropriately.  To some, that process of looks dodgy, but it is essential.  In the present context, we have a set of measurements ASR is using that comprise their accepted model of what a high fidelity item of whatever type should do and not do to be rated well.  The discovery and validation of some hitherto unrecognized mechanism by which perceived listen quality could be more closely aligned with measurable phenomena would be warmly received.  ASR uses the Floyd Toole NRC approach to speaker evaluation, and if I am not mistaken, Amir uses Revel Salon 2 as his speakers, as they are the exemplar of that approach…I would guess he has bridged Benchmark ABH2 amps, with super low noise, distortion, and negligible load interaction.  A lot of us would enjoy such a rig.

Ugggghhhhhh......

I am not so sure I would call resistance to public health policy anti-science. I guess if you consider public health the paramount consideration of public health policy. My concern lies not so much with the science, but rather with the scientists.

Far more people appreciated my posts than anything from Michal. He would keep repeating the same marketing stories without a single fact backing them. I was impressed to see Roon members not appreciate that and valuing specific data, references, etc. that demonstrated his claims to be wrong.

It took me about two weeks to read the majority of that Roon thread. There was a small group of members on Roon that repeatedly backed up Amir. “Far more people appreciated my post than anything” is a little thick and is nothing more than a bias interpretation of events; perhaps even self-serving. Just because two to four members are repeatedly more vocal than the thousands of members on a forum (many of which chose not to participate) does not equate to a majority.

Bringing lawsuits or threatening such is a bridge too far

 Pretty sure 90 percent of us would agree with that. 

As to audio science and engineering there is too much much marketing, so independent measuring by the "unbiased" is welcome. And then subjective evaluations by the masses.

BTW, the majority of our founding fathers decided to vaccinate against smallpox due to first hand experience.  I also did so as my eyes saw tremendous suffering and death each night on television and direct discussions with nurses on the front lines convinced me of that prudence. Was the science 100% correct? Of course not. How can it be in a such a scenario? Like war....many bad decisions during its course lead to many senseless deaths.  

I have a choice, I can either argue about what the definition of "nit picking" is, or the definition of "quasi-anechoic."  Stepping back I'm not sure either argument is worth having. 

I hold views that Amir would dispute (well, has disputed above), eg, re significant audible differences in PCs.  I nonetheless greatly appreciate ASR and the work that Amir does.  I think it’s an important part of the audio community that deserves respect.  Perhaps significant in my sense of all this is that I don’t expect to agree with anyone 100%, and I don’t need them to agree with me.  I’m looking for pieces of the puzzle, not answers.  

We have imperfect gear, environments, ears and tastes. What gear appeals (subjective) in each circumstance isn’t reliably predicted by numbers generated in a perfect environment (objective) and what gear measures best isn’t reliably predicted by what sounds best at home.

Nothing to argue about. So what is the problem? It’s an attention starved rogue or two visiting the opposing site under the guise of "education". Arrogance and ridicule and the ensuing battles are their childish self entertainment. Are we not adults? Let’s ignore the children.

ASR is using that comprise their accepted model of what a high fidelity item of whatever type should do and not do to be rated well. The discovery and validation of some hitherto unrecognized mechanism by which perceived listen quality could be more closely aligned with measurable phenomena would be warmly received. ASR uses the Flo

The ASR CFO is still a Revel dealer (Madrona digital), right? Has he managed to put most of his herd on the Revel train (boost sales a bit)? They sound kinda dry and sterile to my ears though the panther always golfs when it sees Revels apparently.

After he got banned on the various forums, does he continue to maintain multiple hidey accounts on the same forums? Or is he finally busy with his followers on his own forum?

The whole point of owning audio equipment is to listen to and enjoy music.  In evaluating individual components there are objective factors and subjective ones as well.  How it tests is important, but how does it sound and how does that make you feel?

Take a piece of classical piano music that has been recorded many times such as Bach's Goldberg Variations.  There are pianists who play it with perfect virtuosity - technical brilliance - but their interpretations are lacking in feeling.  Subjectively something important is missing.  Others convey the music with similar technical brilliance but with a whole level of subjective interpretation that transports the listener to a better place.  Both interpretations would 'test' equally well if you were measuring how fast and accurately they were playing the notes, but the subjective interpretations would be vastly different - and that you cannot measure.

The same applies to audio gear.  It can test perfectly but sound sterile, or at the other extreme test imperfectly but sound musical and engaging.  

Think of all the steps and equipment involved between the pianist playing in the recording studio to my listening to those same notes from a cd reproduced in my living room audio system.  

ASR emphasizes how it measures and not how it sounds, which is missing the subjective musicality in the equation.  I would encourage their members to go to concerts and recitals and listen to more live music and well recorded and well interpreted music as these are important dimensions beyond test measurements.  Don't just test the car, but look out the window and enjoy the journey it takes you on.

I own Tekton Lore Be's and enjoy them very much.

I have purchased 3 pairs of better speakers in my 50 year experience. Epicure 20s, Linn Nexus, and Lore Be's.  I still have the Linns and still rotate them into my setup. I love the way the Lores deliver mid bass. They sound as good or better than the Linns which were $1200 some 35 years ago.

Bottom line... I care how they sound in my room with my gear, not how they measure.

I am amazed by the knowledge of this group. 

That is not the point. The point is Eric threatening people with lawsuits is the issue. One would work with people, like Andrew Jones does, not bully people.

If you like Tekton, great, but the behavior of the designer is what is turning off people not the speakers.

@coralkong 

Verses here people are encouraged to listen with their heart (subjective) instead of their brain and emotional decisions often turn out to not be the best. 

I like to see measurements before listening to get an idea what the manufacturer "heard" (in a very controlled environment) and see how that compares to what I hear. Measurements are only 1 part of the process.

@roadcykler  While some gear is like candy, tastes great but poor long-term diet, let's be clear that the science is only worthwhile if it feeds our emotions.

Without emotions, there is really no point in music.

@erik_squires What you say is true, but that doesn't take away the damage that ERIC has done to HIS OWN brand. No one else is doing it. This is self-mutilation at it's finest.

@jhnnrrs Bad form injecting politics in an audio forum.