Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 2 responses by hilde45

Interesting exchange, mostly. Bashing ASR seems like a ridiculous thing to do. Nice to see Erik taking a swing at some rational elements in play and Amir for correcting what he considers false or inaccurate claims.

There are many things about measurement I don’t understand, but I don’t dismiss their general relevance.

Two things stand most in the way for me about the usefulness of measurements:

1. How does a given measurement translate into something I might be able to hear (or perceive), and what words would I use for the subjective experience?

2. How important is a measurement, overall, for a piece of equipment’s performance -- and in what ways would I be able to hear (perceive) that measurement’s impact?

Complicating (1) and (2) of course is the lack of a common and accurate vocabulary for what we perceive and also our room’s contributions. (And I’m not even mentioning taste/preference.)

The above problems I have with measurement are, in part, my lack of understanding; the other part of the problem is the lack of a "Rosetta stone" connecting the vocabularies of objective measurement and subjective description of perception. But these two problems are not with measurement, per se.

And yes, there are those who want to avoid the whole complicated mess by *just* going with measurements or *just* going with description (stories), but to my mind this just amounts to an obstinate refusal to engage with the complexities. (And neither Amir nor Erik do this, N.B.)

@8th_note

I'm in a sort of no-man's land regarding this hobby. I'm a scientist by training and I believe in testing methodology that removes bias to the greatest possible extent.

I have been able to internalize quite a bit of cognitive dissonance in this hobby. I can't hear the difference between interconnects and power cords but I sure can hear the difference between amplifiers (my speakers are quite difficult to drive). 

My feeling is that if people hear dramatic differences that can't be substantiated through scientific means then more power to them. It's their money and they should spend it on things that make them happy. In my case I know that I am susceptable to bias so I try to control it the best I can. IMO ASR provides a valuable perspective to this hobby.

Well said. I agree with your views.

The one thing which gives me pause is people who spend money on gear to make themselves happy only because they have convinced themselves they can hear a difference when they don't go to the trouble you do (which is not strictly scientific but better than nothing) to control variables. It would be better if they said, "I'm doing this on a whim" than, "I'm doing this because it's better based on evidence." They have lied to themselves about what counts as evidence rather than simply owning that they're doing it just because they want to. Which is a valid rationale.