Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

But you seem to be that way.  You claimed I make excuses to dismiss ABX test results.  I show you one and now you are doing exactly that.

Once again, Amir, you talk both sides when convenient.

1. YOU harp about how nobody can trust their own hearing.

2. YOU base that claim on ABX tests of Audio components where no audible difference was noted and extrapolate that to a universal truth (see #1).

3. YOU dig up an ancient test with the staggering number of 3 participants as a valid example of audible differences being heard in an ABX test. (see #1).

The test result in your example is irrelevant, as the test itself is so poorly constructed.  Guess we are supposed to be impressed by the name David Carlstrom and ignore that it is crap test.

If that test was brought to YOUR attention as proof audible differences can exist, you would have dismissed it. Disingenuous is too kind a description of the double talk you peddle.  

 

Funny thing is that this argument is not new. Had hobbyists listened to the empiricists decades ago, we would not have improved cabling, tube amps and turntables. If the industry ever gets to a point in which it can adequately defend some of Amir's theories, he will be the last person this industry would turn to as its spokesperson. 

 

 

@audition__audio

I think you meant rationalists, as in “Had the hobbyists (empiricists) listened to the rationalists…”

Absolutely correct. I am so happy for those who spend more time listening to music than rationalising it.

 

In friendship - kevin

1. YOU harp about how nobody can trust their own hearing.

Everybody can trust their hearing.  I trust my hearing when I post double blind tests showing full ability to detect differences.  You too can get there if you only trusted your ear and didn't need the knowledge of what is being tested into the equation.

2. YOU base that claim on ABX tests of Audio components where no audible difference was noted and extrapolate that to a universal truth (see #1).

Nope.  Never said this either.  It is however a universal truth -- or as close as we can get to it -- that you all will absolutely flunk tests that measurements show no audible difference.  We know that because engineering tells us that.  We know that because psychoacoustics science predicts it.  We know that from experiments where you all fail miserably when only your ears are involved. 

Heck, you can't even reliably tell the differences between speakers and you want people to believe you can tell the difference between cables?

3. YOU dig up an ancient test with the staggering number of 3 participants as a valid example of audible differences being heard in an ABX test. (see #1).

The authors made the first ABX comparator.  That makes them very notable in this sort of thing.  Those authors then took the rigid position that no audible differences exists no matter what.  I challenged them for years and eventually got one to agree and disclose this test.  I bought the magazine and provided the first online record of it.  You making excuses to dismiss it makes your position extremely odd and self-defeating.

If that test was brought to YOUR attention as proof audible differences can exist, you would have dismissed it. 

The opposite is true.  I post about that test frequently when objectivists go overboard with claims of everything being the same.

It is clear you don't know what my position is in audio.  Yet you are so sure it is wrong even though it works against you.  I suggest you think again before making lists like this.

 

Funny thing is that this argument is not new. Had hobbyists listened to the empiricists decades ago, we would not have improved cabling, tube amps and turntables. 

I don't get involved in turntables but for sure there are no "improvements" in cabling.  Your cable company has provided long links to your house carrying hundreds of high frequency channels.  You want to say with straight face that audio needed something extra despite its ridiculously low bandwidth?

You can't use your own faulty assumptions to make another point.  My $28,000 audio analyzer has zero audiophile cables.  Yet it can measure small signals that are orders of magnitude lower than threshold of human hearing.

On tube amps, as I have said they are the steam engines of audio world.  At best they are transparent as solid state amplifiers.  On the average and certainly at worst, they screw up the audio pipeline, adding significant amount of noise and distortion on top of modifying the frequency response of your speaker.  These are all step backwards.  Not forward.

Absolutely correct. I am so happy for those who spend more time listening to music than rationalising it.

We don't spend any time rationalizing music.  You all do though by worrying about spec of dust on the wall screwing up the sound.  That level of anxiety must impact the listening pleasure.  If that doesn't, certainly the amount of time spent buying and messing with the system does.  I have seen member threads on forums go for hundreds of pages as the swing in the wind with this or that cable, tweak, product, etc.  One minute this is the best they have.  Next minute a veil is removed with something entirely different.

Folks in our camp buy performant gear, plug them in and enjoy.

Amir says “We don't spend any time rationalizing music.”

and thenAs I have said, nearly half of my reviews include listening tests.  That amounts to hundreds of reviews this way.  So don't keep saying I only go by measurements.  I go by what science requires which is either objective tests or controlled experiments.”

’We’ may not, but he certainly does, by clear conclusion.

In disbelief of hypocrisy - kevin

Automatic EQ systems do that by using a trick that relies on how much headroom your speakers/amp have. You pull the overall level down to the minimum of nulls (within reason). You then use PEQ with negative gain to fix the peaks. Result is flat response (or close to it).

Sloppy on all counts....but, I'll let you and the minions flounder in darkness on this one, lol.

 Sloppy on all counts....but, I'll let you and the minions flounder in darkness on this one, lol.

Sorry, but there is not a thing you know that we don't know and haven't discussed about acoustics at ASR Forum.  Start with this: 

 

@kevn Oy Vey! I return to this forum and it looks, sounds and smells just like my two prior forums with 2000+ posts. Here Amir has utterly dominated the conversation (is it a conversation or dictatorship (conversational narcississt).

@mofojo Well as far as answering my questions in my last two forums, no good answer why Topping is compelled to continual develop new DACs, is it 4 or 5 quality levels and how many within each level? If the D90III is the best ever, do we nope to see a D90IV or V or another number D100? Such foolishness (and marketing). The best musical sounding of the Toppings with many positive reviews giving reasons why is the Topping D70s. It just is unless gets a bum unit that is just off whether in or out of phase setting. The good units are superlative, even at many times their original price, now cut in half used, as if they aren’t as good as ever. Compared to a SOTA, they fall short, not in musicality but in sonic capabilities. Why so many, many DACs? If they are nearly perfect, is a drop in noise by 2 or 5db that critical. Something is very wrong with their philosophy-most qquality audio manufacturers do NOT change models constantly PER YEAR. Some like Synergistic Research, change fuses every 2 years on a schedule and up the prices each time. That sounds as ridiculous as the massive changes of Chinese DACs annually or biannually as well.

I've never heard a system which I liked which was wired with Transparent cable.  I've heard only about two dozen all high cost systems.  

@fleschler yup, I never engage during my music evenings : ) had to take a week break from amirs graphs and word games. Really, he can’t be enjoying his music much, how could he possibly have the time?

 

In friendship - kevin

And, in line with that….

 

Amir says “You all do though by worrying about spec of dust on the wall screwing up the sound. That level of anxiety must impact the listening pleasure. If that doesn’t, certainly the amount of time spent buying and messing with the system does.

  • While there may be doubt regarding who actually cares about specks of dust, we know a lot about the hundreds of hours he spends measuring and rationalising, messing around with the line of each graph, or each little distortion screwing up the measurements. That level of anxiety must impact the listening pleasure. If that doesn’t, certainly the amount of time spent having the last word on confirmation bias after the measurements are known, does.

In all truth - kevin

It is clear you don't know what my position is in audio. 

Congratulations, you made a statement with a grain of truth.  Since you take both sides when convenient to be "right" and have the last word, it is difficult to know your position.

You making excuses to dismiss it makes your position extremely odd and self-defeating.

More Amir double talk.  Pay attention this time. The test result is irrelevant as it relates to the validity of ABX due to the tiny sample of listeners.  Nothing self defeating about stating facts. 

I challenged them for years and eventually got one to agree and disclose this test.  I bought the magazine and provided the first online record of it.

Once again, you are in the CYA mode selectively releasing bits of information.  How convenient to reveal you challenged the authors of the test for years.  No matter what, you always construct a "pure as the driven snow" image for yourself.

I never engage during my music evenings : ) had to take a week break from amirs graphs and word games

The minions must have it tough when they go through his initiation program at ASR.

 

@deep_333 That's hilarious.  I'm sending it to my wife and friends.  

My last statement "I've heard only about two dozen all high cost systems." WITH Transparent cables (I've heard many 100s of high end systems, maybe 500 at shows and showrooms).  Just clarification. 

Mr Spock would levitate towards ASR. Logic would tell him not to worry about technical details that do not matter.

McCoy would likely hang around here and enjoy tube swapping.

 

Kirk would have nothing to do with any of this but might be able to come up with some contorted logic in order to get Spock and McCoy to play nice together. ☀️

 

Or not .