ASR and Audiogon complement each other nicely.  How about a big group hug!  ☯️

Oh G-d so tired of Tekton already. Take it or leave it. Same with ASR. I think ASR provides a valuable service. No more perfect than anyone else perhaps but still very valuable.  

If the conclusion is $1k speakers are all different and I get to choose the ones I think are best for whatever reason I choose, then I think I must agree. I feel so much better now! 😌

But please do  let me know when it is finally determined without a question of doubt which ones are in fact best. I might, just might, be forced to change my mind. 😱

People on a budget should appreciate that ASR identifies many very cost effective products that perform well. Many are so cost effective that it makes sense to consider and compare. You might save a lot of $$$$s if that is something that matters to you. It does to me and I have found some very good values via ASR. Or if you think price always determines quality then probably not so much. You get to choose and be happy.

It’s not hard though to see where ASR reviews may represent a threat to vendors that fear their products may be undercut by others of lower cost. That’s a real possibility but one that benefits the buyer and works against some but not all “high end vendors”. Those that offer unique value or perhaps just an alternate good sound that may or may not measure well should be fine. But it’s clearly the buyers and the more cost effective product vendors that benefit. Other high end review sites that focus exclusively on “audiophile” customers help make up for that though.

Music is art. Art has nothing to do with how good it measures. Art appreciation is a totally subjective thing. Ahhh!

But the gear that plays the music…..that’s technology. Measurements are pretty much the only way to clearly identify technology done well versus not so much. In fact the only way to clearly define a technology is to measure it. It’s all about the numbers and there is no getting around it. Good engineers tend to be very good at math!

So there is no dilemma here. No need to pick just one. Art is subjective. Technology is not. It takes two to tango but only one can lead. Take your pick!

I find useful info on ASR all the time including just now.

Task: use Roon DSP to tweak a pair of Polk Atrium 4 outdoor speakers .

1. Did not measure well on ASR

2. The review indicated a treble bump and bass rolloff at about 100 hz. Good info!

3. The review indicated he liked the sound better than expected after measured but could not recommend.
4. The speakers were measured indoors not outdoors. These are outdoor speakers. They are mounted above ear level on my outside wall.

5. Where my speakers are mounted is not uncommon. Listening is never on axis so treble bump is actually a good thing and not a problem.
6. Now I am well informed and able to tweak the bass rolloff measured with parametric eq in Roon DSP. A bit of a bass bump below 100hz then a rolloff below that to help keep the speakers happy. Also applied headroom mgmt in this case for outdoor use and used Roon speaker setup filter to invert phase which provides a better imaging (in my judgement) outdoors in this case.
7. Ta da! Much better sound!
8. Thanks for the useful measures info on Polk Atrium 4s ASR! I could have done my own measurements but you saved me the time and effort. Much appreciated!

+1. Amir for not threatening legal action against naysayers.  

Perhaps thin skin helps account for golden ears? More good vibrations? Everything matters so that must include skin thickness. Makes sense.  

In general some forms of distortion are more undesirable than others. I suppose the Amygdala has something to do with that. It’s good to understand why and how we respond the way we do (each differently to some extent). So it’s true there is more to what appeals to us in sound than low distortion, but that does not change the fact that distortion exists and it’s also a good thing to understand that as well in each case. Distortion does matter. There are several pieces to every puzzle. 

Yes acoustics are obviously important but this thread is not about acoustics. 

For the record here are the things one has control over that I think matter most for good sound. 

1. Good quality well engineered gear designed to work well together from source to speakers.    Good quality  implies gear has a good handle on distortion. Many speakers will qualify here. You choose. 

2. Amplification that can get the most out of the speakers.  

3. Room acoustics.  You can do some treatments to help.   Then after that smart application of DSP can help adjust for the rest, tailor the sound to personal preferences as needed, and help one get off the merry go round of changing gear.  

4.  Choose your tweaks from there.  

It’s a free country so anybody who thinks they can do some thing better than someone else is free to do their thing. Otherwise negativity is just counterproductive words that anyone can toss about.

I’ve found ASR to be one of the more useful resources out there to help find good value products. I want more of that not less.  
 

We all have egos. Keeping that under control is pretty much always a good thing. 

Everyone has an opinion.  
 

But some are clearly better informed than others. 

I’m with @prof on this one.  Emotionally based arguments against things that add value make no sense  to me.  Nobody is perfect. 
 

Live long and prosper!  🖖

ASR is what it is. TEkton is what it is.   So are all the other vendors and hifi websites including Audiogon. The good news is you get to pick and choose. The more choices the better! THe good ones will survive and the others not so much. Does that settle the dispute?

Why should someone exit a thread that is all about him that someone else started? To let the vultures feed freely?

Threads like this make me want to find a different hobby.  I’ll just assume most of the angst comes from industry people who feel threatened (rightfully so)  and leave it at that. 

Amir is right about tube gear. Many find that out the hard way. Some end up living in bliss. That’s not to say tube gear is nothing special. Just more YMMV. Not worth arguing about. They will always be all glowy and way cool looking, which matters. But that’s just me. Some of the best sounds I have ever heard has come from very expensive tube gear.  Others from SS, often for a much more modest cost. 

In Amir’s defense, I bought a $80 dongle on a whim based on stellar performance reported in an Amir ASR review and that sucker lived up to the hype. It is as clean and detailed as pretty much any thing I have heard as expected based on the review findings. So there is something to what ASR does based on my personal relevant findings.  I still like my much more expensive Chord Mojo, which got a much cooler review but the sound difference between the two are night and day.

There is more to the world than ASR or any one site for that matter but I have no reservations recommending the site as a source of useful information to help make wiser buying decisions. 

@rankaudio fine but that does not make him inherently wrong.   Success is often accompanied by a large ego not just in the hifi industry but in general. 

On  a related note:  I have downloaded and used published convolution filter files in Roon DSP taht adjust the sound to the "Harmon Curve":

What Is the Harman Curve? Does It Really Give the Best Sound Quality? (makeuseof.com)

I can report that in each case (about six different headphones/ear monitors) the Harmon corrected sound is better than each devices default sound to various degrees and I now always listen using the associated convolution filter for each.   

In fact the more expensive and better made phones tend to sound the best after correction as well in that they are robust enough to deliver the corrected sound well.  Also this tends to make all my various headphones that each sounds much different otherwise sound more consistent as well as better.

Where is this “trained listener graph”? Sounds interesting.

Very interesting.  
 

I have a background in satellite remote sensing and pattern recognition.  Training is an essential component there.   Training occurs whenever the task is to recognize a known feature correctly.  
 

So I would say the general concept is scientifically sound  .

The question comes when determining what constitutes the thing that is to be recognized which in the case here is “good sound” 
 

If you can’t get a group to agree on what are the key features of good sound then there is little chance of ever recognizing it correctly.  
 

But, if you can get a consensus on what it is that constitutes good sound, then it can be recognized or not by people.  

If people can’t even agree on what kinds of distortion if any sounds “best” then good luck!

So is an interesting idea.   The purpose of training is always improved performance and that is always a good thing even if people can’t agree on what exactly good performance is. 
 

@mapman can you explain in detail how in ROON you can adjust the sound to the "Harmon Curve" via filters? Thanks

Sure.  

1. Identify your headphone make and model
2. go to AutoEQ Web | Results | Recommended (killdozer.uk) and download filter file for your make and model
3. go to "Muse Precision Audio Control" in Roon
4. click "add filter", then click "convolution"
5. click "browse" and select the filter file you downloaded
6. You can then save the filter as a preset.  Give it a proper name that corresponds to your headphone model so you can select it in the future as needed.

@tvad you are correct.

I have done exactly that with Roon for several rooms at home. Creating your own filter is not as easy as just using one that already exists like for headphone models but every room is different so you have to create your own. REW is very powerful but a bit technical and complex to get one’s arms around initially. Luckily there are guides available via Roon forum that takes one through the process if interested. I highly recommend it as both a learning experience and a very practical way to help bring out the best in most any system

Now, Imagine a site where someone reviews lady’s handbags on measurements only. You might find the most functional bag for the best price but how many ladies buy handbags that way? The boutique/designer handbag industry would be in an uproar. 😉

The things people get all bent all out of shape about... Welcome to the internet age!😡

@ricevs I can vouch bought an $80 dongle based on a ASR review just for kicks and I can assure you the listening tests correspond to the measurements. That thing is as clear and detailed as I have heard and I’ve heard it all.  
I also have a Chord Mojo that got lesser reviews and though I enjoy the Mojo quite a bit as well the sound is much warmer and not as detailed.

Also I picked up a second Fosi amp based on ASR review that I use in a desktop system and that also lives up to the measured performance.

So like him or not Amir is doing something right I would have to say. Probably at least as much as anyone, maybe more. YMMV.

Other gear I own includes Bel Canto, Cambridge, Sonus Faber, KEF, Ohm, Linn and Electrocompaniet. It all sounds really good but different.

I’ve owned tube gear in the past as well and not missing it. The best SS and tube gear tends to sound more similar than different to me over the long term.

How does "ring down" equate to "fast"?

Liberties with semantics being taken here?

There is such a thing as "slew rate", a metric with very specific technical meaning in electronic signal processing and the time domain that I would assert clearly does matter, to the extent which it can be accurately measured in practice.  Certain op-amps designed to perform well in hifi applications are known for exceptional slew rate measurements. 

Slew rate - Wikipedia

1. Why do people wonder why someone who has a thread started that is critical of both them and their entire website bothers to respond? Someone has a problem here and its not the one being challenged.

2. If someone feels so strongly negative about another’s approach, rather than categorically trash the person (an increasingly common practice these days as more people follow bad examples they are exposed to daily), maybe start your own website that does it better your way and see where the cards fall? Otherwise best to stay away from personal mudslinging if one cares about leaving a good impression. Challenge the specifics of what is being asserted that you disagree with, rather than the person.  Offer a better way perhaps.  IT's not a crime nor a felony to at least try to take a scientific/measured approach to something, especially something like hifi gear that is purely a result of technology done right or wrong to various degrees.

I’m going to go out on a limb and assert @erik_squires loves to push buttons. Just saying. Not a bad thing in of itself but one should not be surprised at what ensues. IF it takes a bad enough turn, any thread can be removed if deemed to be contrary for the common good of all.

The time domain of the electrical tool in Fourier mapping dont equate the time domain of the ears/brain who work non linearly ...Then what we call a sound quality for a human perceiver cannot be reduced to a Fourier map...Especially not to a few set of specs measured from a detached piece of gear ,,,

Then instead of arguing about the "gear" measure we must understand psychoacoustics...No subjectivist here , neither Amir seems to understood what does it means .. They are all too busy to reduce human hearing to their fetish tool or their prefered vacuum tube amp...

Amir promote ideology as science not because his set of measures are useless "per se" but because he proposed them as crux of the matter without even knowing why this is scientifically false...

@mahgister , my friend, Sorry but it all matters. You can talk about human perceivers all day if desired but that is a completely different thing than is being discussed here so it serves to only muddy the waters in this thread. Starting a new thread on that topic specifically would be more appropriate and effective.

Then instead of arguing about the "gear" measure we must understand psychoacoustics...No subjectivist here , neither Amir seems to understood what does it means .. They are all too busy to reduce human hearing to their fetish tool or their prefered vacuum tube amp...
 

You mean like your psychoacoustics fetish?

Oh well.  Choose your fetish!   What the hey. 

How about this. Let’s tie a string between two tin cans and I will sing you a song.  The psychoacoustics will explain it all and any old tin can and string will suffice. 
 

Stop accusing me of fetichism , you project onto others your own image ...

Stop projecting! You accused others of fetichism. I just pointed out yours accordingly.

Also I read the article. Does not help me determine what to buy in any way.

I am fetish-agnostic . I take it all in. Your fetish appears to totally consume you to the point of not being capable of considering anything else.

Help us out. What specific gear is best in your assessment? How did you make that determination?

Thanks.

One good fetish deserves another. 

I have seen some subjective review sites rate gear in regards to "attack" and "decay".

That seems reasonable at face value.  I would equate attack with good transient response, even if not measured and determined in an error prone subjective manner.

Decay though?   Yeah I get teh concept.   Pluck a violin string and the note "decays" gradually.     But I would atribute hearing that in a recording to a good quality recording of teh instrument in question combined with now noise and distortion so teh natural "decay" can be heard.  At teh same time,  I don't want my hifi gear to add "decay" artificially even if that in theory sounds better to the average dude.   I want accuracy and detail in my sound reproduction.  That means low noise and distortion but not just in theory.  I find teh gear that in fact measures well on noise and distortion tends to do all that stuff better....ie more accurately.   No artificial filler, which might sound great.   If others want that ie more of a "good" sounding thing, fine.   Tube gear with high efficiency speakers to help compensate is a reasonable way to go.  TO h-ll with measurements!

What specific 14 qualities are you referring to and how do you determine each accurately?

Oy vey...sorry I brought it up.

People should get their facts straight before posting.

Speaking as a professional engineer now for almost a good 40 years, like him or not, right or wrong, Amir is clearly an experienced engineer and that is what he is selling.

Engineering is based on math and science. That’s how our hifi gear gets produced and no two pieces are exactly the same in that regard. So I think it is often a challenge for many to understand how engineers must think and operate in order to be successful.

Some engineers can lose that mold and adapt to being able to communicate better with others who do not have that background. Others not so much. Communication is a key ingredient in pretty much everything...including engineering. It’s perhaps the main ingredient in successful marketing including of one’s engineering accomplishments. People need to speak a common language to communicate effectively. That’s hard and something we all probably need to work on, including many engineers like myself and others I work with. The best engineers seldom make for the best marketing reps. Two different mindsets and ways of communicating in order to be successful.

Even the best engineers make mistakes and will work to correct them. The very best engineers I’ve worked with know what they do not know as well as what they do and operate accordingly.

I like both ASR and Audiogon.

Ying and Yang.

Also all the others to various degrees even if I find some way more useful than others.

Moderators of each site get to decide what goes and what does not FBOFW and then the cards will fall where they will.

It’s a free country and people can say what they want good or bad (at least for the most part so far) but it is a bad habit for folks to want to shoot down everything in this world that they happen to take some issue with. Censorship is bad.

Diversity is the reality in this world and is what makes the world go round whether any one person or group happens to think so or not. The internet confirms that for all no matter where you might actually live.

Nothing is perfect! Take it all for what it’s worth. If its worth nothing to you, so be it. If someone or something is doing you actual harm, then its a different story.

Most just need to start with good quality low noise and distortion gear. Then you can and should use DSP like that on Roon to tailor the sound. That’s the powerful 21st century way of doing things. No need to find the gear that has just the right distortion seasoning out of the can for your personal tastes. That is not a very efficient approach to getting  the best sound for most in this mostly digital day and age.

I almost always add a bump from 4-6khz to my sound. It gives the sound a little extra edge like a good set of high efficiency horns. But look mom….no horns!

Women pay more for designer handbags all the time. I think it’s because they look better! No metrics needed. Someone should set them straight. Some things sound and look better……just because. You can take that to the bank and…..keep your fingers crossed.😊

Men buy hifis because they like what they hear. Women buy handbags because they like what they see. Same thing, different sense used.

Totally subjective and each will choose differently for reasons totally unique to them .

Everyone has an opinion and they are all different. How to decide which opinions are best? Take a guess. It starts with the letter M.

The only way to meaningfully compare options is to quantify the options somehow. If it can’t be quantified the decision is a crapshoot and the odds are not in your favor.

If you properly deal with the things where the data matters first the wires will all work themselves out relatively easily. If you don’t then you are guessing but it still may all work out eventually.

Well informed choices are always best.

At one end, you can pay for good quality affordable wires on Amazon that will get the job done perfectly fine (Mogami for a slight premium is always a solid choice) or take it as far as your imagination and budget might lead you. But if you tell me the wires are responsible for your good sound, my response will be "whatever you say...have fun!".

Disclaimer: I know for a fact that all wires do not sound the same. I also know that wires are not rocket science.....its not hard to produce an affordable wire that does the job well although it will cost more most likely if not made in CHina or similar.

TWo DACS that measure well are more likely to sound similar.

If they measure differently, better chance they sound different. If they sound different, then which one is best? Answer: whichever one you think. But in that case, there is no data to support that either one is objectively the "best" or even "better". One thing is better to audiophile A and something else is for Audiophile b).

What the hey?

Subjectively, anything is possible. Everyone is different, but well designed high performance electronics will tend to be more similar than not, which can be pretty boring when you think about all the gyrations audiophiles go through to achieve the best sound yet few can even agree on what "best sound" even means.  Not a problem when things are measured properly.  Like it or lump it.

Imagine if audiophiles all went with measurements only. They would all have pretty much the same gear and sound.

What would be left to debate? Recording quality? Boring!

“Why did Joe spend all that extra money for the same results”?

But I guess all would have rightful bragging rights. Not a bad deal, but its a fantasy.

Science cannot account for how people think. So rest easy audiophiles. The ranks may be dwindling big-time but there is still hope!

Having seen and heard a lot over the years, I would assert that low noise and distortion systems all tend to sound very similar, as one would expect.

But what fun is everything sounding the same? Not any more than everything tasting the same. Everyone tosses in their own special sauce/seasoning to make things "better".

I find the same with home hifi sound. You start with low noise and distortion electronics then the world is your oyster from there. Toss in a pair of, for example, Sonus Faber speakers or apply some custom DSP or EQ to sweeten the pot. Maybe both!

Once you start with a solid foundation (good quality electronics which infers low noise and distortion), all kinds of good things can happen from there. So many choices at all price points for good performing gear!!

Otherwise, your options may be limited.

At least that’s how I tend to go about it in a practical manner these days,

As always YMMV.

Cheers!

The most vociferous posters act like their religious beliefs are being questioned.

That summarizes it pretty well. Seems like a very small handful here feel threatened enough to fight for whatever reason.

Maybe ASR dissed something they either sell or own in a review?

Or maybe something more affordable that competes with something they sell got a good review?

Or maybe it’s merely their beliefs being challenged?

Who knows. But it always helps to follow the money when money is involved.

One a scale of 1-10 with 10 being best, this thread ranks a 8 for tawdry entertainment, a 10 for learning about people for better or for worse, and a 3 for information useful to people seeking better sound and most of that has come from the accused.

“He who is without sin can cast the first stone”

Here's a lovely guitar player that clearly  has "it".  My hifi just cannot do her complete justice.

@amir_asr: nice summary and spot on!

I would just add that peak performance and sound will typically cost a good bit more in a larger room than a smaller one.

Also worth noting that these days in the 21st century, Roon DSP like DSP in general is the great "equalizer" thus can make a huge difference in sound quality in any room if applied wisely, though I suppose few buy Roon solely for its DSP. That’s merely a huge bonus!

One is at a HUGE disadvantage these days if they still go about getting great sound today the same way they did 30-40 years ago.

Technology has progressed greatly since then. Just look all around you! Hifi gear including speakers and electronics are no different.

Keep the facts coming and Everybody keep an open mind. It will all work out that way. Personal attacks add nothing here.