Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 5 responses by toronto416

The whole point of owning audio equipment is to listen to and enjoy music.  In evaluating individual components there are objective factors and subjective ones as well.  How it tests is important, but how does it sound and how does that make you feel?

Take a piece of classical piano music that has been recorded many times such as Bach's Goldberg Variations.  There are pianists who play it with perfect virtuosity - technical brilliance - but their interpretations are lacking in feeling.  Subjectively something important is missing.  Others convey the music with similar technical brilliance but with a whole level of subjective interpretation that transports the listener to a better place.  Both interpretations would 'test' equally well if you were measuring how fast and accurately they were playing the notes, but the subjective interpretations would be vastly different - and that you cannot measure.

The same applies to audio gear.  It can test perfectly but sound sterile, or at the other extreme test imperfectly but sound musical and engaging.  

Think of all the steps and equipment involved between the pianist playing in the recording studio to my listening to those same notes from a cd reproduced in my living room audio system.  

ASR emphasizes how it measures and not how it sounds, which is missing the subjective musicality in the equation.  I would encourage their members to go to concerts and recitals and listen to more live music and well recorded and well interpreted music as these are important dimensions beyond test measurements.  Don't just test the car, but look out the window and enjoy the journey it takes you on.

 

Amir reviewed the Puritan Audio PSM 156 power conditioner in 2021:

There were a lot of measurements reported, but no mention made of how it sounded. The review concluded that ""there is no indication or logic that would tell us that it can make an audible improvement".

There are many reviews online about the impact of the PSM 156 and I can personally vouch for the audible improvement it has on an audio system.  The above review was not helpful - I bought a PSM 156 despite this review.

Here is a novel suggestion for Amir - why not listen to its effect in a highly resolving audio system, then try to figure out what that effect is and see if you can measure it? Oh, and listen to music - complex musical passages - and not just test tones.

If you keep your head buried in the sand you will never hear the truth.

This thread proves that some people have way too much time on their hands and that they take themselves way too seriously.  Do they not have a day job?  Because beating dead horses to death does not qualify.

After over 1,000 posts and almost 50,000 views of this thread what have we learned about Amir?

-he only listens to half of the audio equipment that he tests.  Auditioning is irrelevant in assessing audio equipment as measurements are all that matter.

-he does not listen with his eyes, nor does he measure with his ears.

-he is always right and always wins every argument - point by point.

-he is spending an inordinate amount of time here on Audiogon proving himself and puffing his chest.  He is neglecting ASR.

It is time for him to go back to ASR.

For someone who claims to have 2,000,000 visitors a month to ASR, Amir seems to have a lot of time and energy to devote to repeated postings in this thread on Audiogon.  Somehow it does not add up, but he keeps coming back and arguing every point.  He is always right, and always has the last word until somebody else tries to.  It reminds me of the Eveready Bunny on Duracell batteries that just won't stop.