Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 13 responses by deep_333

But I agree regarding the culture over at ASR and Amir. He came into the Roon forum to debate Michal Jurewicz from Mytek. Some of the other members became involved and Amir was quite arrogant and condescending. Some of the more fanatical ASR folks won’t leave any room for whatever sound someone likes

As for ASR, it’s a data point, but I’ve found it difficult to digest the toxic culture over there that Amir low key promotes. He’s the Mark Zuckerberg of audio forums - may be intelligent, but socially inept, deflects when challenged, and lacks self-awareness and accountability.

At some point (turning back the clock), i recall that he got banned from every forum i know of. When ya talked to him in person, one could draw some parallels between him and the type of piece that gets fired quickly at any workplace...

What else can you do...but start your own forum?! 😏

 

 

ASR is using that comprise their accepted model of what a high fidelity item of whatever type should do and not do to be rated well. The discovery and validation of some hitherto unrecognized mechanism by which perceived listen quality could be more closely aligned with measurable phenomena would be warmly received. ASR uses the Flo

 

The ASR CFO is still a Revel dealer (Madrona digital), right? Has he managed to put most of his herd on the Revel train (boost sales a bit)? They sound kinda dry and sterile to my ears though the panther always golfs when it sees Revels apparently.

After he got banned on the various forums, does he continue to maintain multiple hidey accounts on the same forums? Or is he finally busy with his followers on his own forum?

Fellas, send the Madrona Digital Revel dealer (who sits around with 1 speaker klippeling away in his garage...whoop di doo) back to his forum and get this type of information directly from the horses’ mouth. You would think he oughta be busy selling Revels, accepting donations from the herd on his forum, etc, staying in his lane. But here he is...trying to do more "outreach" n all (the deep pocket donors exist here, i suppose). Hmmm, maybe, his herd is thinning a bit, when it realizes that the crap he recommends sounds indeed like crap.

Nevertheless, the fanatical side of his herd will eventually settle on some active that looks like a flat line and sounds like a turd.

It’s about what "errors" a designer chooses to live with or not, i.e., what he feels is saleable to a larger number of ears....when these guys oughta run a business (it’s not like they’re incapable of cooking a flat line for a fanatical herd).

 

 

 

ASR is a waste of time for me. Everytime I click on an ASR link I end up regretting it.

Then to have their cult leader show up here ... let’s just say that anyone who posts 7X in a row needs medication.

How do I know? As a great comedian said, "I thought it, then I wrote it."

(cogito ergo sum)

@desktopguy

The Revel dealer’s forum had fallen off my radar (when I got the useless gist of it), until a couple of guys on my listserv mentioned they had been banned for politely disagreeing on some measurement crap, like what is audible or not...In other words, his clan is suppressing anything that deviates from the caricature he paints, in the name of ’science’. But, here he is.

There are specific religions, where the land is no longer secular by law, if members of that specific religion become a majority. The lands where other religions are a majority seem to remain secular by law. You go to that intolerant land and you will have no rights, if you belong to any minority religion. But, when these intolerant fanatics come over to other secular lands (in search of fortunes or whatever), they are real Fin happy with the tolerance, secular laws and the ability to have all their rights (be themselves, speak their minds).

Draw parallels as you wish between the fanatic forum and the rest of em ...

Here is a thread  on ASR titled

"Message to golden eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time" with 361 likes

Here is the content of that thread's post. Observe the tone of these goons. 

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!

 

Give these goons a 128 kbps mp3 file, a 10 dollar Bluetooth speaker (set in on a cardboard box from Walmart) and a 2 dollar DAC. They will measure it and attain audio nirvana.

There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture. We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research. If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback. It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn’t. Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that. The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.

Why are you here trying to play innocent, pretending to walk the high road n all? Who do you think you’re trying to fool? Does that "inner voice" of yours not let you sleep if you don’t convert the infidels on this forum? Or perhaps, Revel sales are slowing down Madrona? Looking for more donations/donors perhaps?

Go back to your own house and find some peace. On your way out, tell everybody here why you were banned from every audio forum out there. Tell them something about that "inner voice" of yours (you know the one... that goes way back down memory lane). I could characterize it with one 9 letter word, but, i’m sure you’ll give it away soon enough by yourself.

These 2 groups in fact presented pieces of gear as it could be the solution ,on the contrary they should have presented really any pieces of gear as component for an acoustic problem, a problem that cannot be solved anyway either by mere tools or by adding new components . Acoustics parameters controls matter. They supposed "ears/brain/system/room" existence as one so that experience and experimentation could be possible......

 

What i do with my pieces of gear linked as one system in my dedicated room, looking for electrical,mechanical and acoustical basic knowledge is creating my own system...

I mislead no one recommending at each and everyone to study acoustics then they will understand that "timbre" is not a colored illusion for example and they will understand how to use the electrical,mechanical and acoustics parameters to improve their experience.

What is this electromechanical and "acoustical" synthesis/optimization you have done that no one else has been able to do (seemingly)? Can you list the tangible/physical things you did (stuff that went further than the theorycrafting domain)?...I sincerely hope it doesn’t involve a healthy dose of listener self-hypnosis as well! 😬

Because bits are not meanings for a consciousness... And perceived sound experience is not identical with a Fourier map in the Fourier linear time domain.. The ears/brain create his own meanings in his own non linear time domain...

Read about acoustics and replace your electrical techno-cultism tool fetichism with real science ...

read at least this article :

https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html#:~:text=%28Phys.org%29%E2%80%94For%20the%20first%20time%2C%20physicists%20have%20found%20that,the%20limit%20imposed%20by%20the%20Fourier%20uncertainty%20principle.

There is actua

@mahgister

Behind the ’apparently scientific’ facade some of these guys are posing under, it is largely a utilitarian life for these ASR types (eat, plug cables into audio precision kit, garbage in/garbage out, look at graph, go to sleep, think about Sean Olive for more street cred, etc). Don’t waste your breath trying to talk about anything that flows into the "metaphysical" realms with this utilitarian crew... 😁

 

Did someone say something eluding to the fact that ASR or Amir owns a 2 channel dealership or has some financial interest in a particular brand of electronics or speakers? Is this true or just hearsay?

@audition__audio He is a Revel/Harman Dealer and his business is called Madrona Digital. You could ask him here what other products he carries/sells.

Feel free to ask him if that would have an impact on competitor brand reviews. We could all get enlightened together.

 

I have no desire to criticize, castigate, or in any other way demean Amir. However, based on the fact that ASR’s reviews do impact (to some degree) a number of companies offering their good-faith best products to the audio enthusiasts’ world, I was surprised to learn that his company, Madrona Digital, carries Harmon/Revel products. [Note: I own Revel Ultima Studio speakers and think them to be marvelous.]. Consequently, I just logged on www.madronadigital.com to learn what other product lines Madrona Digital also carries. The fact that I could not discover any list of them disappointed me. I wish that he would disclose all product lines his company offers for sale -- for the laudable value of "transparency" if nothing else.

Spare the niceties, I am sure this miserable **** cost a lot of brands a lot of money over the years with his loser science turd measurements. Call his company and ask what all he sells. I am sure they will have "golfing panthers" all over the place. I really hope some of the big dogs get together and sue him into poverty. I want to see him cry and beg for donations from his minions to cover his legal fees all day long. That would be a lovely day.

@mahgister , Why don't you and this other son of some eternal mother, hilde, etc (all your apparent rivals) resolve your differences in private messages? Might be easier that way...

@mahgister , Get out of the house and pay a daily visit/walk the dog to some coffee shop near your house, preferably one where intellectuals, university professors, students, spiritual kooks, etc show up. Talk about some of these things in real life, listen to some music on your headphones, take your books, play some chess, start talking to the pretty ladies who show up at such places, etc...i.e., get youself entertained out of the house.

An online forum filled with grouchy old men may not be the right place/medium for the type of conversations circling in your head.