Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
I appreciate that @amir_asr is here. He has been very patient with the attacks on him, on this forum. Thank you. Don't forget that both personal taste (subjective) and measurements (objective) come into play when buying equipment. People seem to forget this point. |
@tonywinga Amir, I believe was involved audio codecs in MS Windows, so he has some expertise in sound, etc. Amir could correct me, if I am wrong. What audio device HAVE YOU designed? Since you are throwing shade, it is just fair. Amir is using a Klippel device, which most audio companies are using for measurements now, since anaechoic chambers are so expensive to build and maintain. |
@erik_squires What you say is true, but that doesn't take away the damage that ERIC has done to HIS OWN brand. No one else is doing it. This is self-mutilation at it's finest. @jhnnrrs Bad form injecting politics in an audio forum. |
I think there are 2-fold things here: 1. Good objective reviews are important. That includes measurements decent REPRODUCIBLE measurements. As a trained scientist, that is what writing papers is all about, in professional journals. If one cannot reproduce or get similar results doing measurements - then the person doing the measurements are an issue, possibly. But they should be reproducible with the same equipment. 2. Listening from the buyer’s perspective. I would NEVER buy a speaker without buying them. The way a speaker sounds, to the listener, if very subjective. Hence, I prefer both objective and subjective - one is not more important than the other. |
@simonmoon They are about measurements - not really listening. But subjective reviews are like opinions, everyone has one. Hence, I trust my ears not the reviewers. You don't like ARS fine, I am mediocre on them, but measurements are important. As very few magazines do that anymore. |
Depends.. @mofojo Pass is not perfect. |
@goose Ears can lie. I mean the number one hallucination is hearing. Measurements can help with expectation bias. At Axpona, this year, so many speakers were so bright - I realize it is also the environment, but it was telling how many speakers lift in the treble range. |
Your ’involving’ quote is subjective not objective. That is why I say it takes both listening and measurements. What you say still does not take away from what I said. I have heard the Reynaud's and thought eww - what not my cup of tea. Just me and what I said about them is very subjective. Not everyone likes the same thing. That is why there are different speaker manufacturers. You like them great - enjoy that is all that matters. It is all about the music anyway, not equipment to me. People seem to think their way is always right. For them yes, for others no. The old saying, 'there is more than one way to skin a cat' is truer than ever. |
@prefab - I don’t go to ASR much - maybe once in a blue moon. But if a speaker is peaky, I can get headaches from listening. At AXPONA this year, so many rooms were so bright, or too much midrange, I was starting to get a headache (similar to migraines). I would walk in, I could feel it coming on, and would walk right out of the room It doesn’t happen often, but that weekend was it was happening. THAT is what I go on. Since it hasn't really been figured out since it happens maybe twice a year but when it does, nothing helps. I have to be careful what I pick. |
@prefab I also never buy anything without research. I do it for it all. I have seen too many of my friends, get on the equipment treadmill. They buy on a whim and are disappointed. I have done this since I was a teenager. I was taught an educated consumer is a smart consumer. To me, audio is no difference. I hope your system gives you joy, when you listen. After all, that is what we use it for. CHEERS! |
@tonywinga because he is entitled to his opinion. Just like you are. Don't like his opinion, don't read it. No one is forcing you. Ever hear the phrase, 'Thou dost protest too much"? It seems many audiophiles are scared of what Amir is saying. I care not one whit either way. Not defending him. I just think it is hysterical so many on A'gon are so up in arms about Amir. |
@tonywinga Actually - I think it is YOU that takes yourself too serious. Amir is doing a service by measuring equipment. He used his own money to buy the equipment. What is wrong with that? I don't go to ASR, maybe once a year or so, but WOW. I mean this is a hobby, it is not to cure cancer or anything else important. It is sad how supposed grownups behave.
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@rankaudio That is nice. Have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say? |
@dwcda Then it is an audiophile forum. It seems that is all audiophiles do, like their life's depend on being right. I get the exact same feeling from this forum, and that is the point. One needs to ignore the yellers and passive-aggressive people in this hobby. There are so many of them. There are absolutists in both sides, and they will NEVER agree. The sad thing is, if they put down the anger, they might learn something. I think @amir_asr stated his idea well, he is giving measurements - what people on his forum do with it, is another thing. It is sad we have to pick through all the junk to find the information we need. But that is what I do.
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@mahgister Agree partially. I feel there are cultists on both sides and there is trench between them and that is usually where I find myself. They are both right and wrong at the same time. If they would listen to each other instead of talking over each other, they would find the common ground of enjoying music and the hobby Ever been to AudioKarma - where the only good audio is 'Vintage' and everything else is not? One can find the same attitudes and aggressive tendencies there. I think we need to find common ground and move on from there. I understand English is a 2nd language for you. I thank you for expressing yourself as well as you do. Oft times, we write small chunks of ideas that can seem to be more aggressive than they actually are. |
@mahgister I have foibles just like anyone else, but as the old saying goes, "I have no dog in this fight'. I just feel people should listen and discuss rationally. I have issues getting out of hand, just like anyone else. It is easy, when you just have a keyboard and screen in front of you. Hard when it is face to face. @amir_asr is not his forum, he just started it. People can get out of hand, what does he do ban them all? There would be no audiophiles left to discuss things. Cooler heads need to prevail. After all, isn't hobby about enjoyment of art? One of my dearest friends is German, who is married to a wonderful French woman, and they live in France - he is tri-lingual also. I vacationed, last year, with him in Brittany. With him showing us all that makes that part of France so amazing. I would like to go back again. CHEERS! |
@pynkfloydd As opposed to here on Audiogon, asking about how to ’break in’ speaker wire? They just move electrons, there is nothing to break in. Please stop. Every board has idiotic threads. |
@mlsstl and yet, here you are, talking about ASR. Must have tweaked something that annoyed you. You know the saying, "any publicity is good publicity". |
@amir_asr These people believe the old urban legends. That is what much of this hobby was founded on. Measurements are fine (I think they are an important first step), but an acoustically bad room will make the best equipment sound bad and visa versa. So, listening is as important as measurements. Hence, why I do both (heretical, I guess). I also know, if a piece of equipment sounds bad, no amount of 'break in - (🤣) will change that. The other issue is everybody's ears measure different. There is no standard to them. This is also part of the equation that everyone ignores. That is why I ask people, 'Can they hear with my ears'. It is also based on personal experience, that also biases our hearing and other senses. Cheers! The Noble Rot 🤣 |
