Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 12 responses by audition__audio

I think that ASR has chosen an extreme stance not for any particular reason except to incite an even greater amount of tribalism in this hobby. Who knows how they really feel or what they believe? What they have done is succeeded in getting members of this forum to discuss a truly forgettable and irrelevant site. 

 

If you read what Amir has said in these last posts you can clearly see the problem. Just a rehash of an age old debate within this hobby. 

I love the statement: "We follow established audio science and engineering". Who, what and when?  

I am not so sure I would call resistance to public health policy anti-science. I guess if you consider public health the paramount consideration of public health policy. My concern lies not so much with the science, but rather with the scientists.

 

I dont deny most if not all of the Covid numbers. In fact I really havent paid much attention to Covid from the outset. Got the shot/booster and then watched tribalism and politicization occur. 

The real problem with this entire fiasco was the reaction of the government to a population that demands immediate, definitive answers and juvenile reassurances. If you dont know admit it. I would even go so far as to say you should divulge just how much you dont know.

 

 Amir gets on and takes a somewhat radical position because it is not effective to be balanced. Get people to join a tribe and then watch the sparks fly when they get together.

What concerns me about Amir and his people is that they constantly make judgements regarding the purchasing decisions of others. Wasted money, gullibility, bias, blah, blah. I truly dont care how others spend their money and certainly dont have the hubris to believe that I could know any motivations.

I dont believe that anyone actually believes that all sonic attributes can be measured. I thought this was a dead issue.

Amir actually believes that all things coming out of your stereo can be measured and even subtle differences will show up in testing. So I am done with this guy and ASR. What he does has merit but only goes so far. To me he represents a radical stance whose basic premise taints everything that follows.

 

Well I dont think anyone is suggesting, except Amir, what you propose. The crux of this entire thing comes down to the fact that most measurements do not tell you how a device will sound. How else then could it be that an amplifier with identical specifications doesnt sound exactly like another amp that measures the same? This is where Amir is so completely wrong. We do not know how to measure the things in the audio chain which some of our ears perceive as the most vital in reproduction. Why listen to Amir in the first place? Compared to those that make and create he is, on his best day, a tourist. 

 

 

Well I am almost done with this conversation. Prof you probably think you are proving a point but you are doing nothing more than showing your biases. Sorry that you appear to not have the confidence in your own senses to judge equipment by sound and need a bit of help with your measurement blue pill. Do you think you could tell the difference between a soft dome, aluminum done, compression and ribbon tweeter? I hope you could. Now which tools would allow you to tell the tweeter type by measurement? 

I think that instead of a double blind for with my inclinations, you and Amir should do a double blind of gear that measures well vs. gear that doesnt.

These tools you so revere were developed only to assist in the design process. The sonic difference between most tube and solid state amps has very little to do with how they measure. The very best designers, I think, used measurements as a basic stepping stone and out of curiosity regarding the effect of design changes and probably materials. If what you believe is true, then measurements would always win out and poorer measuring designs would always be abandoned.

I think this is a waste of time for both of us.

 

 

Odd that someone like Amir would gain much traction in this hobby. I used to think he just picked an extreme position to attract some outliers whose stance needs to be reinforced by someone touting "science". Shame that he may be responsible for guiding enthusiasts away from better sound and in the process decreasing sales from businesses that actually create. It appears he would discourage his followers from auditioning products which dont measure properly because they cant sound good. This is a real problem. But he is easily ignored and even more easily ridiculed. 

 

 

Did someone say something eluding to the fact that ASR or Amir owns a 2 channel dealership or has some financial interest in a particular brand of electronics or speakers? Is this true or just hearsay?

Prof's post cuts right to the heart of the problem with ARS and its devotees. Judgements that others are wasting their money without them listening to the products in question. How do they know, well they measure and just know. 

This entire thing is made really interesting knowing that Amir owns a 2 channel dealership. Would you tolerate a Stereophile reviewer that sold the product they reviewed? Oh I forgot Amir relies on science so he is immune. Talk about going from utterly insignificant to highly suspect.