Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

Listening less than 50% of the time has nothing to do with ABX blind testing. Entirely different issues and each warrants its own discussion. Nice try!

No but the difference we hear is because of some bias. Expectation, sighted, placebo, you choose. So many biases to confuse us poor fools. But what can you expect from listeners who werent trained by Harman? The same Harman who sells numerous lines, 2 of which Amir owns (very pricey) and may actually sell on a retail basis. He doesnt seem to want to answer this question. Be nice to know if Amir actually paid for this gear and if so how much. All of my equipment that I own or represent was purchased at industry accommodation or dealer cost. 

I have a friend that participated in a formal listening test when Infiniti (I think) introduced a new line of speakers after a period of dormancy. If I remember correctly they used shorts bursts of music in mono over a fairly long period. He commented on both the complexity and the tedium. I think he was the only one who was completely consistent in his preference. He was flown, picked up in a limo and lodging and meals were provided. I dont this he was paid for his participation.

Funny thing is that this argument is not new. Had hobbyists listened to the empiricists decades ago, we would not have improved cabling, tube amps and turntables. If the industry ever gets to a point in which it can adequately defend some of Amir's theories, he will be the last person this industry would turn to as its spokesperson. 

What a tragedy Amir's life must be. This appears to be all he has. I felt pity and then I visited ASR and all I could do was laugh. Imagine being proud of such an association.

"listening is great. I do it in almost every other review". 

I am taking a break from this discussion in part due to inspiration from the latest post from kevn. This member communicates properly and with respect. 

I thought my post was very clear on most points but I will address one key thing. It is Amir and the ASR narrative that we are wrong and they are correct. The other side simply believes that they hear the difference and base this belief on experience. Amir constructs reasons why we are wrong, lumps the experience into a tidy bundle and gains a few followers along the way it seems. My guess is that his core group are not high enders, but rather some mid-fi hobbyists who Amir has convinced are missing out on very little by paying less rather then more. 

I think that ASR has chosen an extreme stance not for any particular reason except to incite an even greater amount of tribalism in this hobby. Who knows how they really feel or what they believe? What they have done is succeeded in getting members of this forum to discuss a truly forgettable and irrelevant site. 

If you read what Amir has said in these last posts you can clearly see the problem. Just a rehash of an age old debate within this hobby. 

I love the statement: "We follow established audio science and engineering". Who, what and when?  

I am not so sure I would call resistance to public health policy anti-science. I guess if you consider public health the paramount consideration of public health policy. My concern lies not so much with the science, but rather with the scientists.

I dont deny most if not all of the Covid numbers. In fact I really havent paid much attention to Covid from the outset. Got the shot/booster and then watched tribalism and politicization occur. 

The real problem with this entire fiasco was the reaction of the government to a population that demands immediate, definitive answers and juvenile reassurances. If you dont know admit it. I would even go so far as to say you should divulge just how much you dont know.

All of what bigtwin says is true, but what about the younger or newer hobbyists that may be swayed by Amir and ASR? Someone needs to disagree for the record. 

I am sure many of these Agon members would visit ASR and voice their opinions but it seems they will get banned. 

I for one applaud Agon for not banning Amir. I think this entire thread does him no credit. Plus I think it is his right.

 Amir gets on and takes a somewhat radical position because it is not effective to be balanced. Get people to join a tribe and then watch the sparks fly when they get together.

What concerns me about Amir and his people is that they constantly make judgements regarding the purchasing decisions of others. Wasted money, gullibility, bias, blah, blah. I truly dont care how others spend their money and certainly dont have the hubris to believe that I could know any motivations.

I dont believe that anyone actually believes that all sonic attributes can be measured. I thought this was a dead issue.

Amir actually believes that all things coming out of your stereo can be measured and even subtle differences will show up in testing. So I am done with this guy and ASR. What he does has merit but only goes so far. To me he represents a radical stance whose basic premise taints everything that follows.

Well I dont think anyone is suggesting, except Amir, what you propose. The crux of this entire thing comes down to the fact that most measurements do not tell you how a device will sound. How else then could it be that an amplifier with identical specifications doesnt sound exactly like another amp that measures the same? This is where Amir is so completely wrong. We do not know how to measure the things in the audio chain which some of our ears perceive as the most vital in reproduction. Why listen to Amir in the first place? Compared to those that make and create he is, on his best day, a tourist. 

Well I am almost done with this conversation. Prof you probably think you are proving a point but you are doing nothing more than showing your biases. Sorry that you appear to not have the confidence in your own senses to judge equipment by sound and need a bit of help with your measurement blue pill. Do you think you could tell the difference between a soft dome, aluminum done, compression and ribbon tweeter? I hope you could. Now which tools would allow you to tell the tweeter type by measurement? 

I think that instead of a double blind for with my inclinations, you and Amir should do a double blind of gear that measures well vs. gear that doesnt.

These tools you so revere were developed only to assist in the design process. The sonic difference between most tube and solid state amps has very little to do with how they measure. The very best designers, I think, used measurements as a basic stepping stone and out of curiosity regarding the effect of design changes and probably materials. If what you believe is true, then measurements would always win out and poorer measuring designs would always be abandoned.

I think this is a waste of time for both of us.

Odd that someone like Amir would gain much traction in this hobby. I used to think he just picked an extreme position to attract some outliers whose stance needs to be reinforced by someone touting "science". Shame that he may be responsible for guiding enthusiasts away from better sound and in the process decreasing sales from businesses that actually create. It appears he would discourage his followers from auditioning products which dont measure properly because they cant sound good. This is a real problem. But he is easily ignored and even more easily ridiculed. 

Did someone say something eluding to the fact that ASR or Amir owns a 2 channel dealership or has some financial interest in a particular brand of electronics or speakers? Is this true or just hearsay?

Prof's post cuts right to the heart of the problem with ARS and its devotees. Judgements that others are wasting their money without them listening to the products in question. How do they know, well they measure and just know. 

This entire thing is made really interesting knowing that Amir owns a 2 channel dealership. Would you tolerate a Stereophile reviewer that sold the product they reviewed? Oh I forgot Amir relies on science so he is immune. Talk about going from utterly insignificant to highly suspect.

I have to thank deep_333 for using the word "turd" in a posting. 

Amir it is time for you to exit this thread. With each post you dig your grave deeper with yet another nail placed in the coffin lid. You are not doing yourself any favors.

When I briefly checked your reviews very few high end companies actually send you their product to review. A bunch of mid-fi with customers sending you, apparently, the "higher end" stuff. 

At least on this site, your 15 minutes (being generous) is up. Your lack of understanding is pitiful.

Amir is being truthful? Amir is demonstrating exactly how much he doesnt understand. Certainly less distortion is a good thing but not if in order to get lower distortion you sacrifice other aspects of reproduction. Tubes give you better linearity, allow for a much simpler circuit and have better low level resolution. So they measure higher in distortion but are more satisfying and accurate in other ways which may not be measurable. 

I dont care how honest a person is if they consistently demonstrate not only a lack of fundamental understanding but also a refusal to acknowledge the complexities present. The dumbing down of a complex issue simply so he can create a more defensible position does no one any favors. Amir doesnt want to help he wants to divide. 

Amir would want us to believe  that the resurgence of tube products and the associated happiness tube owner experience is based on something other than sound? No blathering about bias, coloration, nostalgia, etc can explain this. The simple fact is that many very experienced and respected audio experts and enthusiasts get from tubes something that they didnt from sold state. Designers like John Curl and Nelson Pass readily admit that they are unable to duplicate in their designs aspects of tube amp performance. They are unapologetic because they understand and have an open mind to the reality that there are things that cant be explained and are scientifically untidy. Their respective egos have been satiated by industry admiration and user respect.

I would have no objections if Amir just posted his measurements and stopped at that point.  If you dont see the condescension, just in Amir's posts on this thread, you are not looking very closely. 

Who exactly are these trolls? Please identify them by name! 

Only an improperly functioning brain concludes that 1 + 1 = 3. Convincing yourself of this would be psychotic. 

So all posts extoling the virtues of cables, conditioning and the like come from trolls? And you conclude this because these are all components that make no or little difference.  This makes no sense, but then begins to make sense when you mention what you do for a living. Never ceases to amaze me that engineers think they have some extra level of credibility by virtue of their education and choice of career. Actually you have less credibility because you are often victims of your education and your desire to quantify everything. Unanswerable questions scare the stuffing out of people who typically do what you guys do. 

Check out the different types of distortion that are created by solid state and tube amplifiers. Also check out at what levels of these distortions the brain begins to react negatively. Not all distortion is the same nor are these distortions processed by the human brain in the same fashion as they are detected by measurements. Lower distortion is always better but not when a higher distorting piece gets others things right.  No more likely that we talk ourselves into liking a product that measures poorly or is "colored" than you guys convince yourselves into preferring a product that measures well. Once again the only meaningful tests are ones that result from listening and thoughtful comparison. 

I have listened over the last 40 years to all types of speakers, amps, preamps and cables and then drawn my conclusions. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt you have ever compared cables, amps of different architectures, etc over decades. If you havent it is probably because you know there will be no difference and certainly not enough difference to justify spending large amount of money on such accessories/snake oil. If you dont listen and compare your position is untenable.

Emmys for what?

Look at how he gets his equipment and also the type of equipment he reviews. He is out of his element when he discusses the high-end.

Funny how he continually discusses his qualifications but no one in this industry takes him seriously and they usually dont know him. "Oh yeah that Audio Science guy" is about the best you will get. 

I love the "trained listener" graph. 

Starting to spend too much time thinking about the ASR guy. First I dont know of many that respect Carver and take him seriously by the standards of today. Second he is not a tube designer but Amir chooses his tube amp to measure, review and mention. Hmm. As if all tube amp designs are the same and display the same characteristics. Never more true than with Amir, sweeping generalizations are the product of a small mind. 

I agree. The problem is that he may be influencing other enthusiasts, hopefully few younger listeners, who may abandon the hobby out of frustration. I would say the same thing about hucksters that claim improvements that arise from dubious products. Problems arise when "experts" encourage listeners to judge by factors other than actual listening. No one should be discouraged from allowing the experience to take them in a positive direction. 

Which is an easier position to take talking people out of spending larger amounts of money on audio or trying talk them into listening, trusting their instincts and spending more? Choose your position, take this position to an extreme and double down. 

ASR doesnt seem like a very professional organization and has no credibility because he sells equipment. 

Check his reference system and how it is stuck into a media room of sorts. Just dont have that much space in the old double-wide I guess. Being driven by a front-end that I wouldnt put in my garage system. 

Amir, seriously man you just dont get it and need to move on. The sun has set on your time to contribute to this hobby. 

ASR could have some purpose, but after what Amir has said on this thread I dont think any contribution can be made. In fact if his brand had any credence it is now gone. Belief systems dont trap people, lack of experience and due diligence traps people. In a hobby which entirely revolves around listening, I have no time for people that dont or wont listen. 

I love classicrock's explanation on how to not get banned on ASR forums. You can disagree but not really.

Cult seems to be an appropriate way to describe ASR followers. Amir offers simple explanations to complex problems, one central figure who has all the answers, shunning or banning if you question the guru, safe spot that doesnt encourage actual complex thought, aggressive defense of the master and an ability to find members who are searching for answers but suffer from problems of confidence.

I think a deprogramming is in order. This may be nothing more than forcing these people to sit down and listen with an open mind. However such listening might force an existential crises so get ready for some therapy. 

Sorry should be who knew. 

Because these simple answers are correct or because they are fringe, easily defended and a gross oversimplification? Seems like it is about time for Amir to chime in, get everyone energized and upset and then disappear. He could be an evil genius.

Still waiting for the "paid shills" that classicrock so often mentions to show up.

You can measure the mid-fi stuff that appears to be his meat and potatoes all day long, but who really cares? With a few exceptions most on this site are not his audience. He is out of his element when he enters the higher-end. 

Hey Amir, how many people eat at McDonalds? Further, these visits could be something akin to always looking at an auto accident as you drive by. Oh and comparing yourself to Stereophile doesnt help give you any credence. 

Just so I am clear, you hear differences between products that measure similarly so now you will tell us what would be an appropriate amount to spend on our equipment. Less is fine unless it is gear that you sell then the extra money is well spent. 

I would like to become a trained listener but will require a certificate to show my friends. Please help. Funny thing is that I will need to completely change the setup in my dedicated room to mirror your setup which runs contrary to what I have read, discussed with manufacturers and experienced in numerous rooms and shows over the last 40 years. Especially nice is the fact that I can now confidently include by big screen into my main system and improve my sound. Who new; hell who could even have imagined. 

Visitors to ASR, starting tomorrow, will be 2,000,001. 

I want to take this opportunity to apologize to Amir and ASR members. No stance taken on a public forum is worthy of ridicule and you have every right to voice your opinions on this or any forum. Having said this, I dont believe you could be more wrong in much of what you say and the things that you use to back up your beliefs count for very little. Worse, for me, is that I believe you are doing your members and this hobby a great disservice encouraging them to follow an ideology which is completely false. Encouraging skepticism and due dilligence is fine, but implying that they dont trust their senses is not. 

Now that this out of the way, I can ignore you just I have before this thread started. 

And what devices typically produce which types of distortion? The level of distortion becomes much more audible and relevant based on the type. So it would be incorrect to directly compare 2nd order harmonic and higher ordered types as being the same.

Also inaudible levels of distortion still have a profound impact on the sound of the device at any output level. 

Very few more positive emotions than shame and guilt. Hopefully we rarely feel these but they are a wonderful way of keeping ourselves in check. Happiness is a wonderful state of being but it must be earned. To be in a constant state of happiness requires a special type of person that is able to recognize the significance of humanity as well as the pitfalls of self-interest. Our true nature is one in which how we feel varies from day to day and is situational.  

If Erin was asking ASR members for donations I dont blame Amir for banning him.

Of course reducing noise and distortion are desirable. I dont think anyone disputes this. Sometimes the other qualities that you get from components that measure poorer in these areas still sound more correct overall. 

Very few really talented solid state designers will dispute that they cant duplicate what tubes do well in their designs. Just as few designers of any amp type will dispute that their designs sound better with higher impedance speakers.

Amir measures things which is fine. But no one can adequately explain how a majority of people in this hobby gravitate, through experience, away from notions that much of what Amir says is true. In fact much of it is completely false.

He doesnt come across to me as a listener of any acumen. He completely missed the sublime aspects of this hobby. He speaks as if it were a mechanical undertaking and also listens in the same fashion.

Speculating about the buying habits is based on, admittedly, a quick perusal of ASR and the reviews. Dont see a great deal of higher end product and what I did see was reviews of equipment on loan from ASR members. Hmmm.

Well hand bags and audio is a terrible analogy. We dont cross our fingers we base our choices on how things sound. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous and speaks to your uncertainty regarding your senses. Just because you find comfort in what you consider to be "quantifiable data" dont condemn others because they do not. 

Amir provides evidence in the form of measurements, but there is no universal acknowledgement as to the applicability of these measurements and which measurements explain things properly and are of actual significance. If I want to know about measurements I will go to those that create, not a populist wannabe. This is a really old argument that is no closer to being resolved than it was 2 decades ago. 

Listening test data! What data and what proof? A graph, some mention of trained listeners and all this coming from Amir of all people. Who could you possibly take this seriously without a significant amount of additional detail? 

Buy what you want, believe what you want, but dont lecture others that the enjoyment they experience with their tube amp is anything other than aspects of reproduction that are deemed superior during the listening experience. 

This is a waste of our collective time. 

I have decided to ignore Amir and ASR entirely. It is hard to ignore toxic people sometimes, but I have need to at least try lest I become toxic myself. I really think the more he posts on this forum the more damage is done to his brand, however, textbychoice may have a point. 

On a whim I visited the ASR forum. Lots of mid-fi, products on loan to Amir. Cult indeed. If you guys are going to follow a false prophet get a better one that can at least set up his reference system properly. Not even a one-eyed man to be found. Absolute rubbish.

"This has caused a movement in the industry by shifting....". Please Amir enough I cant take it any longer. I might buy this if you restricted it to components costing less than $ 500.00.

Please feel free to list industry people that contribute to ASR that dont share your beliefs about audio. How about some tube and analog industry guys? A dash of cable experts would be nice as well. 

There are industry people and then people in the industry. I doubt you know many of the former.

I just talked with Ralph last week. He has not moved away from tubes and considers his class D amps to be better than the 60 but not my MA-1s. I have a number of ideas about why he would make this move, but I dont believe performance is on the top of his list. I listened to these amps at Axpona 2 years back and he paired them with these awful single driver plexiglass-like enclosure speakers so I have no idea how they actually sound. To date I have heard many class D amps, including the AGD (looks like a tube device) and wasnt impressed. If he wants to send me a pair I will give them a listen, but I remain skeptical.

To you reactive guys. Amir makes a much larger percentage of his income indoctrinating you than I make from selling overpriced gear. BTW, I dont try to convince customers of anything, I just invite them to listen. 

How many of the products I carry have you guys heard? In fact please share with us details of your system, how you came to buy these products and what effort you have made to listen to other products that may sound better. Also are you willing to listen to an underperforming tube device? 

I will start with my current system in my dedicated room without a big screen between my speakers. Room treatments are mainly homemade and I am very close to doing a wall damp on this room. My dimensions suck and have solved a few of these problems with adding mass. Your room is the single most important thing to get right. Listening to 2 channel over 40 years. 

Current system: Merrill Williams REAL table, Tri-planar tone arm, Hiyabusa and top Dynavector MC cartridge, Zesto Audio Teserra Ref. phono stage, Zesto Audio Leto Ultra line stage, Atma-sphere MA-1 amps, recently rebuilt Quad 63 and 2/3 way Atohm speakers. Cabling mainly Kubala with some Inakustik. No power conditioning with improved AC power outlets. Oh and an inexpensive Simm Audio CD player that I bought used.  This lineup changes often.  

Amir, still waiting for the list of industry people. I'll make it easy for you, give me a list of industry people that design any piece of audio gear at any price with any level of preconceived bias. Oh and stop mentioning Harman. Prefacing them means nothing.

Give you a bit more information so that you can see how my taste and knowledge has developed. My first system purchased in the early 1980s, during college. VFet Sony integrated amp, Bozak LS250 speakers, ADC t.t with Grace F-9E mm cartridge with assorted cables. Learned from this experience that I didnt have nearly enough power to drive these speakers and things were a bit more complicated than my dealers let on. From this point I started to read, find those who were willing to mentor me and spent the rest of my time listening to as many systems as possible.

So I actually have been where some of you guys probably are at this point, fortunately I didnt have someone like Amir telling me to do anything but judge by anything other than actual experience. Unfortunately for many of you, navigating the audio landscape is much more complicated than it once was. Sure more ridiculous claims but also the sound of equipment has steadily improved since back in the day.

The rub for me is most of you skeptics arrive at you opinions not through listening. Not much more be said. Let me put some of you at ease. Just because some of us spend more on this hobby is no cause for you to take this personally. We arent better people, we arent necessarily better more asute listeners and we arent wealthier. We choose to spend as we spend because we believe we are getting better sound and this is very important to us. Simple. Who are you or Amir to say otherwise? 

O.K. Amir lets go.

So you make no money from your youtube channel and ASR? If you actually get people to send you money then you are an absolute genius. Do you own or are you involved in the retail sale of components? If so, how many of these are represented by Harman? I would check but I really dont care enough to check so I will take you at your word. I dont believe in what you call science and audio engineering. Or at least not all of it.

Show me where I said Ralph was my favorite designer. Ralph is also a member of Audio Asylum and Audiogon. His contributions are almost always of a technical nature and he avoids ridicule and pontification. So him not calling you out doesnt mean that doesnt take issue with the things you or other members have said. Have you ever listened to an Atma-sphere product? Has Ralph ever offered you one for review? Ralph believes in measurements, but he will also tell you very carefully where measurements fall short and how most who measure dont get the bigger picture. I talked with Ralph when he just received the chips which made his class D amps possible. He and I disagree on a number of things and at the risk of making him angry I dont think his move to class D is based mainly on performance. I own Atma-sphere amps because they are the best amps I have heard with certain speakers. I owned them before I became a dealer. Same with all of my lines.

Simple request Amir. Give me a list of your industry people. Oh and your association with Ralph is too thin to be counted. Again your measures of performance arent universally accepted as applicable. 

I think the MA-1s now retail for around $ 18K. I have heard your amps or a similar vintage. Arent these overpriced by your method of thinking? Cant find another cheaper pair of amps that measure similarly and therefore sound the same? Your amps are competent s.s. designs. I would however encourage you to listen to some of the uber expensive European designs to see where your Levinsons fall short. 

Perhaps you have done a great deal of listening tests, but if you did these in your listening room I wouldnt really call them tests. Your reference system was set-up not for audio but for space and perhaps aesthetic considerations. Reminds me of a audio/video setup. Sorry but I am a hobbyist and small dealer with a dedicated room, treatments and no big-screen. So again very little traction. Anyone who really understood would not have this setup or would have the common sense not to show it. I believe your style is to measure first and then listen? So measurement bias.

Show me any definitive test or study that says that our senses are wrong, especially in an audio setting. Show me a study on bias and I will show you another one that denies the premise. Funny how you eventually will use some study not related to audio to prove your point. Even your measurement pal at Stereophile criticizes the double blind theory. So you, myself included, gravitate to the one that closely matches my experience and you your theory.

The rotation analogy is so stupid I wont even do you the honor. 

You need to learn the limits of your measurements and your rigid stance on most things audio related. With your permission I will continue to waste money and effort on things that dont matter to fidelity. I do appreciate your concern. A glimmer of hope, however, as you seem to have found a 50K pair of amps and a 23K pair of speakers not guilty of this sin. 

Stick with the mid-fi Amir and stop interrupting when the adults are speaking.