However, once the room is optimized, then it does come down to the gear. As we've agreed on another thread -- two equally good rooms (equally optimized) will be different if the gear is different.
Many people don't know or do enough about their room acoustics. The room is a system of acoustics and perception. But the gear is part of the system, and just as neglect of the room leads to worse acoustics, worse gear does, too, because it's all part of the system. So that leads back to gear.
Give me any basically good amplifier and i will make it sound more than good...
How?
With acoustic treatment with passive materials and especially with mechanical acoustical controls...
Then bashing or celebrating a piece of gear means lttle at the end... Like the speakers, no amplifier sound the same in different room...
All amplifiers has different flavor sound for sure, but this flavor is not so much compared to the acoustic increase of their working in the acoustical environment tailor made for their speakers link in a specific room...
Bashing other gear or celebrating the gear we love is human but it is not serious audio experience...
i myself love my Sansui so what?
The most important thing is the system /room relation and this relation is always very specific andoptimized for the system and the ears of the owner...
Audiophile are ignorant focussing on the gear price tag or particularities that exist but at the end that are secondary...
i never listen McIntosh...
People who has never listened to their system in a controlled room cannot know his peak working potential S.Q.
Mikey has already helped me with getting my system to sound better with my current amp. I’m upgrading my amp and preamp, going with NAT Audio gear from him. He brings tremendous value and only cares about helping people get the best sonics as they can. Anybody that can’t appreciate that has issues with hurt feelings.
Glad you’re having a good experience.
As I see it, he’s made a very broad brush distinction between "people who just care who audio looks" with "the real audiophiles who care about sound."
We can all agree that’s a fair distinction. But his next move is to start herding people into the camp of looks (effectively calling them non-audiophiles) by dint of brand association. It becomes an "us" vs. "them" strategy that names names. That kind of tribalism -- he calls his fans/customers a "tribe" -- is reminiscent of the worst instincts we have. It turns us against one another in politics, religion, orientation, and more. Don’t we have enough of that?
He could have argued the "looks only" vs. "quality-sound" distinction without naming brands. He could have said, "listen for this" or "check these specs or build," etc. But instead, he went after a bunch of companies which make good products. Are all of them 100%, consistently, good? Probably not. (Is every Mercedes a winner?) Are all of them fairly priced? Kinda up to the buyer to decide that.
As someone above pointed out (I think), this seems desperate. It’s the YouTube version of a giant "Sale!" sign in his shop. He needs customers and he has a schtick -- the "Come to me -- I’ll hook you up with the *really* good stuff." Or, "Are you done worshipping false gods? Because I have a line on the Real Deal." He has set himself up as the authority above and beyond all influence, all marketing, all folderol. But then you realize -- he's just another seller, promising to be on your side, a "man of peace," to quote Dylan.
Well I've had mac gear in the past, I also think it's just okay. Certainly not my cup of tea. But honestly I think it looks worse than it sounds. Never liked it's looks. But you can get this gear used all the time for really good prices.
I've owned Jolida, Conrad Johnson, Hegel, Cary Audio, and now I own a Mac MA5300. I do not regret it at all. I saw a comment about KEF's. I had a pricey pair of KEF Reference speakers that I lived with for a few years. They were pretty good but lacked in transparency. Some of the more recent offerings I thought were much worse (driven by Hegel H80). Lets keep it simple. To each his own.
Instead of Rolex or Harley Davidson, why not compare McIntosh to Lexus.
Like Lexus, McIntosh has:
1. Excellent longevity and good looks.
2. Top Tier resale value and brand recognition.
3. Competitive performance in each segment.
4. One of the highest rated customer satisfaction and ownership experiences.
5. Owners either trade for another Lexus, or keep it in the family and buy another.
I've noticed in the previous posts that if a McIntosh owner shares their likes, it's detailed and specific including models and supporting thoughts. However, the critics don't offer "the why" details to support their position other than generic blanket statements with no proof of ownership other than owned and didn't like, moved on, etc. Not that their position is not valid, but where's the what and why that we would like to read and learn about?
I suppose D'Agostino is the Breguet of audio then. Watch/audio comparisons are utterly fatuous. In the context of this thread and the references to Fine Sounds, the Rolex comparison is particularly inaccurate seeing as Rolex is one of the few Swiss watch companies which is independent and not owned by a luxury goods conglomerate.
Outside of the US, McIntosh are a known brand but there is no large fanbase. Generally, if one of their products is good, people will buy it but I've never seen the "wall of McIntosh" installations.
At any one time, a vendor may have a brilliant DAC in their line-up but a weak preamp. In 5 year's time it may be the other way round. I don't know why people don't pick the best sounding product rather than buying everything from one brand. I've never owned more than one product at a time from a vendor.
separate point, mikey ocd is a long time audiophile, has strong opinions, is a blowhard when it comes to presenting them, even if some are right (but then again alot of what he says is really wrong), his opinions are also problematic because he is commercially conflicted on many levels
so as with anyone spouting breathlessly on youtube, he may have a narrow fan base, but most viewers with brains and judgement take his schtick with major grains of salt
for really good info on macintosh, pls refer to audio excellence canada - they post numerous vids on youtube also... sometimes meandering in their lead-ins, but stick to it, excellent info and listening impressions on macintosh gear, driving top flight speakers, fed by top flight sources, properly set up -- now they carry mcintosh as major dealers in toronto, but they also directly compare against meaningful competing gear (which they also carry)... and it is my feeling they are quite honest and balanced in what they report... adrian and vilip are real pros, high integrity, greater intellectual honesty, successful too as a business ...
if the discussion is about mcintosh’s recent/modern gear, i think a fair summary is it is very good looking and very good sounding gear - of course, different audiophiles may/will have preferences for or against mcintosh’s house sound -- which is somewhat warm and romantic with good bass foundation (this more prominent in its lower to middle ranges... transparency is quite good in their top tier stuff)
of course, you are paying for having both the good sound and sexy looks
there are brands that may sound subtly better, certainly many that offer more value... but for all premium, luxury gear, which mcintosh is today, it delivers to make their customers pretty darned happy
It’s hillarious all these audiophile keyboard warriors bashing "Macintosh". I didn’t know this thread was about Apple computers. If you’re going to cut something down, at least learn how to spell it.
Both duly well-respected premium brands but no longer considered at the very top.
I've never owned Mac, but would probably go for vintage Mac down the road. I still love everything about the McIntosh brand. They certainly don't make things like they used to but they sound good and are dripping with style.
Made me chuckle Rolex, Macintosh in the same breath. I have and do like Rolex watches, there IS something in common with Macintosh. They look good but you can get far better and in the case of the Rolex a $500 electronic watch keeps better time…..
@vuchI agree that Mike is very helpful. Yes. For some he can be an acquired taste. I don’t have any experience with McIntosh yet. So I can’t comment on his comments about Mac. But I do disagree with what he said about Magico. They are some of the best speakers I have ever heard. I also have a pair of A3s. I do think they sound good. They are very truthful speakers. Because I am a gear hound (isn’t everyone here?) I have supplemented them with a pair of REL T/9i subs and a pair of Aperion AMT super tweeters. Not because the Magico tweeter is bad. Just that I was curious about what they would do. I liked them. So I kept them. I think the big advantage of having the subs and super tweeters is that you have more options as to how you want to adjust your soundstage with toeing in or front firing the sub, super tweeters and or the Magicos. But Mike also makes nice inexpensive things like his silver Maggies upgrade kit on the 1.7is that I used to own. Lastly, he does rep Jeff Rowland and I got a good deal on a pair of Model 125s. I am happy and in process of breaking them in. Like everyone, sometimes folks say things you don’t agree with. But that doesn’t nullify all the other positive things he has said or done. Just pick and choose what you want to listen to from Mike just like anyone else inside or outside of audio.
Macintosh did have worth back in a day and certainly was well marketed, that was then. Open one up,,, there is a lot better out there. Can only live off your name for so long.
I do not hate Macintosh. It is your money; if you want to spend your money on Macintosh, go right ahead. Personally I would never buy anything from Macintosh because in my opinion there is far better sounding and better built equipment available for far less money.
However Macintosh does appeal to a certain demographic; my friends and I call it the Harley Davidson of hi fi.
Not all Mac amps are autoformer coupled. They have several SS integrated amps and a monoblock that are direct coupled and use 12AX7s as input buffers. And don’t go saying the stuff is overpriced. A lot of audio gear is as costly or more. Sure it’s not budget hear but it is well built, lasts, and yes holds its value. Their weakness is in the streaming arena. Since joining the Sonus Faber family even the speakers have taken a turn for the better. Their turntables are by Clearaudio. I don’t own any, but I am the original audio cheapskate by choice.
Everybody his sound ! I don’t like McIntosh , and isn’t for me “the Rolex” of the amps.: than I will give it to VAC. : Is more natural, detailfull and the sound is very 3-D. Mc is a “cliche” : used with Sonus Faber , and B&W : hi-fi :okay ! No high-end ! ( but like I said: everybody his sound and equipment)
They're junk. I hear they'll be out of business soon. I mean, c'mon. They've been making stuff since 1949 and clearly have no idea what they're doing and almost no one likes their equipment or buys anything they make.
(That's heavy sarcasm for they humor impaired. Why anyone would listen to one word that yahoo says is beyond me)
Surely everybody knows that MacIntosh products are significantly overpriced, a friend has a Mac Dac and we compared to my Denafrips at 1/3 the price, no comparison on sound quality but if you want blue lights the Mac is better.
@gregp858 MC452 dude I’m jonesing for that amp! Not looking to hijack this thread but one quick question, @ 450w it’s a beast, does it need a dedicated line?
McIntosh isn’t the only brand Mikey’s trashed. Audio Research and Magico are a couple of other brands he isn’t impressed with. His beef comes from when a company sells out to corporate buyers and take an iconic name and start watering down the brand to maximize corporate profits. It’s happened with a lot of brands including Marantz.
Mikey’s passionate about great sonics, that’s where his heart is. As a guy searching to improve the sonics of my system, I respect that about him.
Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab said flat out that Mikey’s system is the Formula One race car of HiFi rigs. Jay was really impressed and he’s had all of the ultra high end gear!
I bought Magico A3 speakers because I’d never heard anything like them. The sonics were overwhelming. However, so far I don’t think they’ve sounded as good in my listening room as they did during the demonstration at the high end store. I’m on my second amp within a year since buying them.
Mikey has already helped me with getting my system to sound better with my current amp. I’m upgrading my amp and preamp, going with NAT Audio gear from him. He brings tremendous value and only cares about helping people get the best sonics as they can. Anybody that can’t appreciate that has issues with hurt feelings.
I am running a McIntosh c53 preamp, mc452 amp NAD c658 streamer McIntosh mct500 sacd and KEF Blade speakers. The sound is absolutely amazing. The wet blanket analogy is just not right. This system is very musical and very non fatiguing. I have listened to these speakers on arcam amps and didn’t care for it. All I know is that when I put on whatever I’m in the mood for and turn it up, it makes me smile. Happy listening!😎🎶
I love my MA8900. Outperforms the Vintage Nakamichi I had before. Not saying much, but if you don't believe me, listen to my Belle Klipsch. They love it too.
Truth be told for the longest time I dismissed Mac as just high priced home theater gear. I finally heard a SS Mac rig paired with some big ass Electrostats and I woulda swore it was a tubed system. Impressive.
ocdmikey is the same clown who lost out on distributing of Denafrips products and went on YouTube blasting the company and their products. Really appeared to be sour grapes. Maybe he pissed of Mac as well.
I remember in the old days, Mac reps would come to local events to test their Mac equipment and compare the results to any who would bring their equipment in to compete. My Citation amp and power amp had much better numbers by far than Macs. ....don't know how that relates to the reproduced sound, but in the numbers game, their performance was far below my stuff.
Can the McIntosh critics list the Mac components they’ve owned or Legitimately evaluated themselves if they are going to make a blanket statement about the brand? For example, which McIntosh amplifiers sounded veiled with the KEF’s? Which component sounded like syrup? What specific product did you find satisfaction with after you came to your conclusion about McIntosh? Would be interesting to learn which components and from which part of history or current they are evaluating with such a generic statement. Those details would actually be interesting.
This is either my first or second post here. Mostly, I just read but since I’ve got two vintage Mac amps, I decided to chime in. One has autoformers and one is direct coupled. I front one with a Mac preamp. The other with a Rotel preamp. Nothing sounds veiled to me. I truly don’t get where that comes from. As a matter of fact, the direct coupled MC2002 is quite lively. My MC2155 is smooth and warm and I anything but veiled. Speaker choice can make anything sound veiled or lively.
Like anything blanket statements like "good for looks, not for SQ" gloss over tens of thousands of counter examples.
My case: I run an old McIntosh power amp (MC-2300) and I love it. It's perfect for my needs (driving old, power hungry speakers) and I think it sounds wonderful.
About eight years ago I picked up one of those C-22 commemorative preamps (came out in 1995 I think) and didn't really like it and sold it.
So I end up thinking they're a good brand but caveat emptor. You have to do your due diligence and listen.
The brand image is still going strong, a buddy of mine either has his ears full of wax or is brainwashed deep down to his subconsciousness. He believes it's still super high end.
While shopping for a new preamp, I saw an interesting you tube discussion from two employees in a canadian audio shop I believe. Both were well versed in the PS Audio and Mc Intosh lines and were comparing a $9,000 Mc Intosh (forgot model #) vs. the $6,600 PS Audio BHK. They both thought the PS Audio was more musical and that 30 minute video was what put me over the top to buy the BHK. Coming in Thursday.
Doubtful there are many other brands that will hold their value as well as McIntosh
No problem with you liking the Mac gear. But resale value has nothing to do with sound quality. Perhaps a relation to build quality but perhaps not the top tier of possibilities.
Trusting that “You Tube guy” with anything audio is the same as people trusting the Facebook persons with their Covid information. I LOVE every piece of McIntosh equipment I own. It sounds fantastic with my speakers in my 2 rooms and that is all that counts to me. Resale value is off the charts, in 2017 I bought a used McIntosh MA6600 Integrated, it looked brand new and it could have fooled me. That same amp is selling on eBay now for $6500. I paid $3200 for my mint piece with the 2 shipping cartons and a brand new remote. I liked the amp so much I bought 5 more Mac pieces within a 6 month period, all from Audio Classics
Say what you want but I know I can always get my money back and then some should I have a desire to sell any of the Mac, which I won’t. Doubtful there are many other brands that will hold their value as well as McIntosh where you can double what you paid for it. oldhvymec said it best though and I feel the same
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