Has the cost of HiFi gotten a bit too much?

It's not just you. It really makes sense to buy used.

if you look around , what hasn’t gone up and it doesn’t have to be audio related.

what hasn’t gone up and it doesn’t have to be audio related.

Right. Housing cost is another item which has gone up quite a bit.

On the other hand, automobile price has more or less stay reasonably with respect to inflation.

LOL, Buckle up buttercup it is only going to get worse.

You are correct in some respects and some are just price gouging.

Materials shortages and cost, ie nickle, polymers, chips

Skyrocketing fuel, logistics costs.

Covid and the Russia Ukraine war combined have created a perfect storm.

I hope I am wrong but the worse is yet to come. Stereo gear will be the least of our worries.

On the other hand, automobile price has more or less stay reasonably with respect to inflation.

hardly.     have you checked used prices lately?

If consumers didn't  buy, it wouldn't be so.

You likely don't live I Southern California. It's part of "normal" for me.

have you checked used prices lately?

I haven't but maybe it's something I need to look into once my car lease has expired.

@andy2,

You will be unpleasantly surprised at the high prices and unavailability of cars. 

As the wealth gap continues to increase at an ever-accelerating pace, and elites enjoy the excesses made possible by a new gilded age, the average Joe or Jill is increasingly priced out of the game. I’ve been monitoring this dynamic for the past several years.

Prices for all luxury goods, not just high-end audio equipment, have become patently absurd. From shoes priced at several thousand dollars per pair to luxury watches costing more than a million to exotic automobiles priced at several million, and everything in between, luxury item pricing is up. Way up. Yet mega-yachts and hyper-mansions are being snapped up by the ultra-wealthy as fast as they can be built. In fact, many luxury products have extensive wait lists, and entire production runs for new ultra-exotic sports cars are often sold out before the first vehicle ever rolls off the assembly line. All the while, fewer and fewer young families can afford to buy a home, and the American Dream is dying a painful death right before our eyes.

This situation is an increasing source of frustration and anger for the less privileged that needs to be addressed, preferably before the streets are running red with blood. The ruling class are continually inventing novel ways to dig deeper into our pockets for necessities like food, health care, and housing, and this needs to stop. Enough is enough!

Back when I attended college and grad school, my state charged residents zero tuition. We paid a modest registration fee each semester, and that was it. And rightfully so. They were, after all public universities built and funded by our tax money. Now, my state, charges in-state college students a tuition of $8K per semester. This certainly isn’t because the tax base has dried up, because my state’s population is many times what it was back then, and the tax rate has continually increased. Yet, the state claims it can no longer afford to provide a college education with only tax money. Really???

The rich like to spout silly platitudes, in the vein of "a rising sea raises all boats" (the argument behind supply-side economics). This is nothing but gaslighting. The truth of the matter is that, left unchecked, money goes where money is. I must, however, agree with one favorite banality of the rich, which is that a million bucks just doesn’t go as far as it used to. Yep, true words. And just exactly who’s to blame for THAT?

If you want to find the answers to any questions,just follow the money.  We don’t need a bunch of government agencies flashing badges,just a group of forensic accountants. 😎

“You’ll own nothing” — And “you’ll be happy about it.” Klaus Schwab of the World Economic Forum.

How many even know his name? Not that many. Yet, the WEF has called for the "Great Reset" Many still won't believe this. Some will. Another man said, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"

""You Will Own Nothing and Be Happy,” said Klaus Schwab,

I haven't but maybe it's something I need to look into once my car lease has expired.

Looked at buying my soon to be retired company car, 2018 Dodge Charger SXT Plus for one of my kids, 60K miles and they want $25K for it. That is what my company paid for it in 2018.

Top end gear is expensive but there is plenty of good budget gear out there. Maybe more choices than ever.

while the highest end can be called astronomical, the quality of modest cost systems has become quite impressive...

I think the root cause is the FED has been printing money.  I mean look at their balance sheet.  They got 8 trillion dollars.  All that was just trying to artificially inflate the stock market and the housing market but at the expense of inflating the cost of everything else.

Are manufecturers , rich  peoples ?
Is it a rewarding business ?

I don’t know .
 

Andy,

I agree with you. Can't just keep printing money.

What a mess and still years to go until relief!

ozzy

The Fed is not just printing money. Stop with the folk economics as it makes you guys look like trolls, which you are.

All the best,
Nonoise

What a mess and still years to go until relief!

I am not sure how the FED going to unwind their 8 trillion dollar balance sheet.  Is it even possible?  What if we going to have a crisis tomorrow, what are they going to do?  Just adding more to the existing 8 trillion?  This inflationary condition is not going to be "transitory".  What if it's here to stay.

In general, I think high end audio has remained pretty cost level. In 1980 I bought a state of the art amp, a Threshold s500. I had to take out a loan. In todays dollars that is about $18,800. I recently bought a ARC 160s amp for $22K. The performance is not even remotely close… 40 years of progress… but I think it fits in a similar slot. There are many more expensive amps now. But that is because of differentiation in users and developing for better healed audiophiles.

All in all the sound quality level has advanced remarkably. I am sure I could buy an amp better than my Threshold s500 (actually if anyone owned one that has been reconditioned chime in) for $2K. If I am even close on this, it attests to the value of buying true audiophile stuff. I owned a Pass x350 for 15 years and got all but $500 back in trade.

It's all Joe Biden's fault.  🤣🤣🤣

It's all Joe Biden's fault.

Everything adds up.  Even before Biden took the office, the FED had been going on a money  printing spree.  When Biden took office, he did have a bit of a spending spree too (basically just adding more spending after spending).

The Fed is unwinding it… Powell is really smart guy and knows what he is doing… and of course is completely independent of the president. I follow this stuff and have a Masters in Finance… having said that I don’t want to discuss it. It is not nearly as simple as it sounds. Abstracting stuff up to a couple variables and thinking you can draw a conclusions is idiotic. Like reading an amps rms watts and drawing a conclusion about what it sounds like. .

OT, but since it was brought up by the OP in the "printing money" reference - can anyone name a currency currently based upon what is universally known as the "Gold Standard"?

I can’t think of one (even going back a decade, or more, ago), but I’m not a history/economy buff.

What I have noticed (past 2 years) is that used cars are often now priced/listed @ 30%+++ more than they were 2 years ago.

I’ve also noticed that used contemporary audio gear has also followed this trend in that 3 years ago 40%-50% off was pretty much the standard for mass produced stuff (this no longer seems to be the case in general).

However, not certain if these higher asking prices are the actual final sale prices.

DeKay

Abstracting stuff up to a couple variables and thinking you can draw a conclusions is idiotic. Like reading an amps rms watts and drawing a conclusion about what it sounds like. .

May be you could educate us a bit?  Tell us what we don't know.

The FED doesn't print money, the DEP bureau in  the Treasury  department  does.

@andy2

I appreciate your comment, but honestly no. I would recommend with a economics class, follow with a couple finance classes… graduate level. Then a few years of following details of inflation, GDP, PMI, Fed moves… in this setting it ends up in a big waste of time. I (or I doubt anyone) can begin to enlighten lay folks in a few paragraph posts. Any assertion would be followed by pages of background and caveats… I would be spending hours researching an appropriate way to summarize.

I worked as the economic and strategic advisor to the CEO of a global high tech company. I have invested in the stock and bond market over the last thirty years. I spent years following stocks and economic indicators both professionally and personally. This is not a useful topic for an audio forum.

You’re on the money @artemus_5.    

When I bought an ARC SP-3, D51, and D75 in 1973, they were priced at $595, $695, and $995. Not that much more than the price of mass-market mid-fi components. Sure, the price of ARC products has over the ensuing years risen far more than has inflation, but many would argue so has their sound quality. But $25,000 for a pre-amp?! I lay the blame for the absurd price of ultra high end products at the feet of Mark Levinson, who started the whole high end (I hate the term) "snob appear" movement. He, and Harry Pearson and his accomplices at TAS.

On the other hand, do Schitt products (and Rega, and others) sound better per dollar than did budget components of the 70’s and 80’s? IMO, based on sound quality vs. cost, there are current products which are a better value than at any time in the past. I would now much rather own a pair of Magnepan LRS than a pair of AR-3a’s, which in 1968 cost $500/pr. The same can be said of Vandersteen’s Model 2 loudspeaker, or any number of other beer-budget products.

For those who don’t mind buying used (as with other above, imo THE way to go), one can pick up a Music Reference RM-10 for $1500, an RM-9 for $2000, and an RM-200 for $3000. Better than comparably priced ARC amps, but then no bragging rights. Except to those who value design genius, build quality, reliability, sound quality, and value. The RM-9 is a far, far better amp than is a used $2000 ARC. IMO.

When it comes to value, I will once again point ya’ll to the Eminent Technology LFT-8b, imo the absolute best deal in all of audiophiliadom (an opinion shared VPI’s Harry Weisfeld, who proclaimed the LFT-8b to provide the best midrange reproduction he has ever heard, regardless of price. As the owner of the QUAD ESL, I wouldn’t go THAT far ;-). I expect that advice will be, as usual, ignored. Suit yourself.

Go to a high end outlet. Cruise a few mail-order websites. See what you can get for the total amount you want to spend. Read equipment reviews. Read Audiogon.. Chances are decent you'll be able to put together a system that'll please your ears and not completely decimate your wallet.

The sky high prices are sweet music to the ears of the Chinese manufacturers. They are offering great value at excellent prices. The other hifi manufacturers are just accelerating the process of digging their own graves.

chinese manufacturers  Chinese communist party 

as i see it there is definitely a proliferation of nosebleed priced gear by many makers... i think it is in response, predictably, to the emergence of top 1% ers in society ... if one looks in stereophile or tas the top categories seems to be exclusively populated with just insanely priced gear

that said, in more affordable price tiers, there is also excellent choice of gear, and i would venture to say, more and better choice than ever, and that is where helpful forums like this come in, advice and experiences by real users who live in the real world of money shared openly

a great example i have recently put together has been maggie 17i’s driven by a hegel h190 amp streaming roon... a core computer, a decent network switch, an ethernet cable into the hegel, speaker cables into the maggies... so simple, not too expensive (less than 10 grand in gear at msrp, more like 5.5-6 grand used) and the sound is absolutely, simply superb...

another example is a system recently put together for a dear friend - classic spendor sp1’s, pair of older rel q150 subs, bluesound node 2i streamer into a nuprime ida-8 integrated w dac... 3500 in cost used, sounds just lovely, full range, played soft or loud

the existence and marketing of ridiculous nosebleed gear like $20,000 amps and $10,000 streamers and $30,000 speakers should not dissuade real audiophiles and music lovers living in the real world who still appreciate the value of wisely spent money

@nonoise + 1

@gregdude

Having worked in high tech manufacturing and spent years working on mainland China… Chinese Manufacturing is just that. Chinese that have put together a business, hired Chinese workers to produce and sell a product. They are like us… try to avoid getting in trouble with their government… know the boundaries of how to avoid it… know when their government is lying to them… and work to support their families… enjoy going out to dinner if they can afford it. They also have a cultural way of interaction among themselves… more aggressive than we are. But they know our manor of interaction and treat us accordingly. I have also worked in supply chains and manufacturing in Japan, across Europe and Mexico, different cultures, but good people working within the distant confines of their government.

If you think audio equipment prices are getting high, they are flat lining compared to lumber prices,. Read this quote:

"On Tuesday, the cash price per thousand board feet of lumber was at $1,391, according to industry trade publication Random Lengths. While that’s down a bit from its $1,515 all-time high set on May 28, it’s up a staggering 288% since April 2020. Prior to the pandemic, the price usually floated between $350 and $500."

You see 2x4 studs at Lowes for $8.00. and 1/2" 4’x8’ plywood sheets at Home Depot for $57.00, both ungodly prices. Those prices have precluded building a woodworking shop at home until hopefully prices get back to pre-Covid levels next year. But that was supposed to happen this year, along with this years significant increase in lumber production. I’ve invested in a new tonearm and cartridge instead this year.

Mike

Marantz is coming out with a very favorably reviewed class A/B streaming integrated amp for $2500.00, just add a couple of mid-priced speakers, speaker cable, and a Qobuz subscription and you’ve got a very good system for easily under four grand.

The sky is far from falling for reasonably priced gear!

viva la revolution. history will repeat itself.  what happen to Reagans trickle down economy?  

@tsacremento : +1! We live in the new Golden Age - which means the Rich get richer (way richer) and the Middle Class and the Poor increasingly suffer and struggle to afford necessities. Nobody needs a $10K phono cartridge or a $100K speaker system!

@andy2 I think the root cause is the FED has been printing money. I mean look at their balance sheet...

I am not sure how the FED going to unwind their 8 trillion dollar balance sheet. Is it even possible? What if we going to have a crisis tomorrow, what are they going to do? Just adding more to the existing 8 trillion? This inflationary condition is not going to be "transitory". What if it’s here to stay.

Yes. Except that it is now pushing 9 trillion dollars and rising (see chart - opens a bit slowly, then use pointer) and the Fed is clueless about what to do.

The *rate* of increase may slow, eventually reach a plateau, as has been anticipated for quite some time. Just guessing.. But as to a decrease, the implications of doing so are scary. The Elites won’t let that happen in a hurry.

Mr Powell is indeed a clever man, being a lawyer by trade, and a member of the establishment Elite.

Add all this liquidity sloshing around the world, negative real interest rates but nominal rates rising, with supply chain constraints, inflation genie out of the bottle, massive budget debt and ongoing deficits, geopolitical tensions, and other structural issues, and stick on When the Levee Breaks. Like in the closing credits to the film The Big Short.

I would rather have an engineering marvel like a Ferrari than an equivalent priced high end audio system.

Say a 296 GTB  for example - $568,300  Jays Audio is often reviewing systems in his basement , for this sort of price  

Or alternatively you could  have the Ferrari - With a long legged blonde in the front seat in tiniest  of mini skirts

C'mon men what would you really want?

Around 1985, I bought a Harman Kardon integrated amp (the 645 vxi) for around $250 IIRC. It's still hooked up in a bedroom system. These days, NAD sells a similar product (the C316BEE V2) for $479 (Crutchfield price).  So the price hasn't doubled in ~37 years.  But neither product has ethernet, USB, WiFi, bass management, upsampling, or an LCD touch screen.  In many HiFi components, new technologies not only inflate the price, they often become outdated within 5 years or so.  Same with vehicles. An infotainment system adds maybe $2000+ to the price, and is outdated many years before the engine starts burning oil.  Yet it provides little capability - much less, really - than you'd get from a $500 tablet. 

There are frequently frictional lags in the degree to which the prices of goods track input costs. However, the current global circumstances have created an unusual, if not unique, situation. We have become accustomed to a having very low interest rates and very low inflation, but that situation is now reversing. We also have the various global supply chain problems arising from various circumstances including the pandemic and the current war being waged by Russia on Ukraine. The UK is suffering from further cost increasing pressures arising from Brexit.

Often when faced with input price rises, manufacturers and service providers try to absorb the costs to maintain their position vis a vis competitors. However, there eventually comes a tipping point where they have to raise prices and the effect can look rather sudden even though it's the result of a period of sustained pressure.

Separate to all that, the stock of wealth in capitalist economies tends to increase over time as a result of rising productivity and also inheritance.

Aside from the current price pressures, I haven't seen radical rises in the price of high end audio. But what I have seen is the introduction of higher priced lines i.e. product lines where the price is higher ab initio - Constellation Audio and Techdas are examples.

@audioguy85,

This is what we call a sh**post.  This is how entire threads get deleted. A completely off-topic little rant.  I'm glad you feel better.

I live in a summer vacation hot spot where multi million dollar homes with 100k + sports cars and SUV’s are parked in garages. The homes are occupied 2 months of the year and occasional weekends. Thankfully my modest 3 bedroom 2 car garage Cape within a short walk from many of these homes is valued at over 700k vs it’s build price of 180k including the lot back in ’98. I enjoy the same restaurants and beaches while having earned a good living designing and installing home automation systems and theaters in quite a few of these homes. As ridiculous as it seems to me and many others here in the area to have so much invested in a home and vehicles that get such little use, our local economy thrives so I for one don’t care what people choose to spend their money on let alone how much of it. I do however feel very strongly that the return and reward in a 2 channel audio system above a given investment cost today is marginally very slim compared to other areas of investment such as real estate for example. How much reinventing of the wheel has there really been with amplifiers for instance in the last 60 years in comparison to automotive engineering or medical advancements? The DIY community thrives in the restoration and enjoyment of older tube gear because of the great value both monetarily and for the fact that they can produce sound that rivals modern production pieces costing much, much more. The end goal most of us desire is the ultimate sonic experience available within our budget. The funny thing is most are never satisfied and keep chasing the unicorn. Proof is in how many components are bought and sold by individuals on a regular basis. Are you making uninformed decisions, never content, believing BS hype? I want to sit my ass in the chair and enjoy the music...I know unicorns don’t exist except in fairy tails.

It has nothing to do with inflation. Go to an audio show. I did last month and $35k-over $100k speakers sound much worse than say the Revel salon/studio 2’s for $23k or lower. If it was inflation and you also based it on sq, the revels would be $150k. There were some nice sounding speakers at the show but instead of $30k or more, they should have been priced for sq around $5k or a little more

Focal Sopra 2's are my judge of price gouging. Just two years ago they could be had for $15k. They now cost $22k. There is no way to slice that cake to justify it. Glad I got mine before the gouging began, but I won't be back to Focal. 

Maybe some things have become out of control, but has ARC ever been cheap? Or how about McIntosh? Heck I took out a loan on my first large speakers. The used Bozak B’s were mine for 24 easy monthly payments.

JD

@audioguy85 ,

It would serve you and the health of this thread well if you confined your idiotic political opinions to yourself and your ignorant, like-minded buddies.