Enough is Enough

@ricred1, I suggest you ignore your retailer and maybe find a new one. BTW, my retailer also said negative things about my components. Listen to your ears and what sounds great to you.

This is why I practically stopped going to dealers 20 years ago. I was even told to change music I listen to - all because THEIR system didn't sound any good with MY source material. Call BS and walk away. 

hgeifman and mikhailark,

Thanks for the response to my post. I guess it’s unreasonable to expect an Audio dealer to actually help a customer without insulting what they have.

Well, if they told you, "Oh man, your system is fine. You don't need to help me send my kids to college by buying anything from me!", they might be telling the truth. But that isn't likely to happen. 

I've come to the same conclusion watching all the YouTubers too much and next year, I think I'm going to give them a rest. Every other week it is "something new and improved" that makes everything prior suck by comparison. Well, not exactly. 

DACs and such have gotten to the point that while they definitely don't sound the same, we can surmise that at similar price points they all should sound pretty good. 

These people have a vested interest in making you feel you need to part with your money.  That's the name of the game. 

Some dealers are obviously stupid. Even if your system has problems(they all do) this dealer doesn't know how to sell or advise. And he's of no use to you. Stay away from him. Find another dealer who explains things and suggests improvements and a DAC for you now, of course.

Best advice trade in your dealer for a new one.

moonwatcher,

I don't know everything, but I don't expect or need a dealer to tell me my system is fine. I'm simply asking a dealer to recommend a replacement for my Chord Dave DAC. 

When you find a new dac, be sure to call that dealer and let him know what you bought.  :) 

It's funny, I've lived in about 6 or 8 US cities and have done business with dealers in each place, and I never had one use such tactics on me.

Your dealer is probably a moron, and probably desperate to hit your wallet after throwing you in a rabbit hole.

It looks like you have some good gear. Why do you even need a new dac? What’s wrong with your dac? Looks to me like you don’t need a new dac.

The only issue seems to be that your single sub is most probably in the wrong location and very poorly integrated.If you have 24ft, speakers are say 4 or 5 ft from the wall and you are sitting 10 ft away from speakers, you have ample space to put that sub behind you....That’s where it most probably should be. Sub placed up for aesthetic reasons is most probably a fail.

Do you have a mic/REW? Ever measure anything?

You could also put something diffusive at the ipsilateral/contralateral reflection points.

deep_333,

You can't see my other sub, but I have two subs. The subs were set-up by the dealer using a mic/REW and several hours of listening,

@OP Any sensible dealer will never dis a customer's system, so I would just go somewhere else. Nice system BTW.

Your dealer is right. Your system sucks! I’m happy to take it off of your hands for 25% of retail value. J/k 😃

all kidding aside, this is a great system that most of us would love to own. 

Yes, find another dealer, Just wondering who the dealer is who doesn't like your equipment. 

I cannot believe that the dealer asked you to chuck away everything in your system. Only a moron would say things like that about the components you own and the treatments you have in place to make it sound optimal. He must have smoked something, just before you entered his store!

@ricred1 I got your PM but audiogon won't let me reply unless I give them a credit card.  with all the hacks going on, I don't put my credit card on servers just to sit there and be hacked, so I can't reply.  

I found the Lampi bigger and fuller and extremely detailed.  the soundstage is indeed excellent on the DAVE but loved the sound of the GG3.  I can't compare to the Atlantic since I went right for the DHT.  However, Lampi's flagship, the Horizon is a Pentode based output.  I recently spent a weekend listening to it with Lukas and a few others using the Taiko XDMI and it was spectacular, but way above the price range you're shopping in.

Best of luck,

Jerry

20 years ago when I was just getting into high-end audio and had money to burn, my audio dealer talked me out of buying a new preamp." The world does not need a new preamplifier company, and you don't need a new pre-amplifier." He had not sold me my preamp and could have sold me a brand new one for more but he knew that I didn't need it. His son still carries on his business in Maryland years after he died and I'm always going to remember what an honest and thoughtful guy he was. So any dealer who tells me that I would have to start over is simply asking for money and not for trust.

Once upon a time of mine, long ago and at the west end of this country....

I was in the market for a new Toyota p/u.... Living in Oakland at the time, I visited a local dealer and got what I felt was a reasonable ask, but wanted to push the point and see if I could improve on a deal.

Visited a different dealer or three, who all came up with a number that was generally higher, the last claiming in it's ads they'd beat any other dealers' price.
When I mentioned the price quoted at my local dealer, he sniffed 

"Those n*****s will do that just to make a sale and screw you over anyway.."

I excused self to visit the restroom shortly, and sought the sales manager, and repeated the comment...."You ought to have fired that assh*le yesterday".. and left.

Yes, the local salesman was black, stayed on the quote, and the Toy was a 'runner' for our 10-ish years, sold to a buddy who, last seen, was still driving it.

Some salesfolk of the time should have been riding the trash trucks of the time on the back of it.

What I hope for in sales personnel is rationality and couth...If I dare 'waste one's time' it's to pay attention to the attitude of the F2F encounter v. the entity I've encountered....

Since then, I describe self as 'beige', not white....to the point of adding it on a form.

To quote Frank:  "I'm not black, but sometimes I wish I wasn't white...."

The truly white have to wear protection from the sun....and the condition is exhibited in all races....

Any audio sales shmuck that would imply that I ought to dump my happy collection of audio odd would and will get the same rough route from me.

Life is short enough as it is...and I'm closing in on the stub of it.

....and "heaven is in your mind..."

Know yours. 👍  Good luck, J

@carlsbad2, As per my PM TO You, Audiogon did Not ask me for a credit card to send you my PM. You said “you got your PM but audiogon won’t let me reply unless I give them a credit card”.

I do not understand why Audiogon asks you for a credit card. Please review.

@carlsbad2,

MY ABOVE POST IS INCORRECT!  You must have a verified phone number and payment method to send messages.

i checked my Audiogon profile and discovered I did have a credit card on file.  I removed it and can no longer send private messages.  I am investigating this. 

You can send all the dm's you want without having an on file payment method.

You just can't respond to any. If you want to respond, simply initiate a new dm.

I have been into audio for over 40 years and member of or part of audio clubs ion the east coast ,making recommendations , fine tune your Audio you don’t have to start from scratch.I can say yes maybe upgrade as I mentioned before a digital cable upgrade ,I just recently found a Gem in Tubulus Audio cables ,their Digital cables and a couple power cords ,truly kicked my very respectable system up a notch . I truly think the front end is slightly more important then the Loudspeaker ,Why for it is the first part of the Audio chain , once the signal goes down stream you Cannot make up the clarity or resolution , the Loudspeaker is second , everything counts though . I sell Denafrips Audio and their latest philosophy in their New Gen-15 series ,such as moving the Pontus to the previous Venus 12 th  which was just upgraded last year for Pontus money is a first ,

the same holds true for the new Venus 15 ,last years Terminator12, The New Terminator15  was the Upgraded Terminator plus , without charging Any increase in $$ in fact your saving well over $1k per product .and all were tuned even more so ..it’s a great strategy ,for each model can compete very well with the competition in their respective price categories.

Don’t let that one salesperson ruin your experience.  There are a lot of highly qualified and experienced audio sales people around who are willing to add value to your purchasing journey.  

My take: two-fold on your dealer salesman’s uber-crass and uber-insulting response,

(1) I would only have one thing to say your dealer salesman: it is the slang profane pejorative embodied in GENESIS 9:7.

(2) Furthermore, I would not even call him the slang term for a protologist’s subject matter, because  an a****le actually serves a useful function .

"So now I say, maybe enough is enough; because no matter what I have some poster will tell me it's crap and I have to start over. "  

Nothing to see here.  Move along.  (Jedi)

😆

Sounds more like a shady used car dealer. Of course he said your system is crap and how convenient he just happens to sell stuff that will make it the best system ever. As others have said, you'd do well to find a different stereo business to deal with.

Dealers will always route you to something they sell. It isn’t even that dishonest, IMHO, call it a grey area. So basicly, you have to pretty much ignore whatever a dealer says. I know some people have dealers they trust. Still those dealers cannot be perfectly objective.

Owners can’t be fully trusted either. they are going to have confirmation bias toward whatever they spent much money on. and they often just repeat what the dealer told them.

Reviewers never give a bad review. they are playing the game.

Best bet is to: 1. understand the technology behind it to figure out what is likely to sound better. 2. listen with your own ears. A physics degee helps with item 1.

OP:  if you're in socal, stop by and listen to my Lampi.  I haven't gotten around to selling DAVE yet so we could do an A/B.

Jerry

@carlsbad2,

Audiogon reports “the credit card is not stored with Audiogon. If you add a Credit card it is stored with PayPal. Audiogon had to make this requirement to prevent bots and spammers from sending messages in the forum’s”.

I was a retail owner for many years, now retired.  We offered personal service and hired [and fired] many salespeople over the years.  Some of them, you could tell would thrive at this and others were pretty obvious that this was not their calling.  Sounds like you got one of those.

 ricred1  Forget dealers suggestions , trust your ears. I have Ideon audio DAC now and it is the best dac i ever had . They know how to kill USB hum.

@ricred1,

I also suggest you forget your retailer and trust your ears.

I like my Bricasti M21 DAC very much because it sounds great. The DAC has a 24-bit delta sigma DAC, a 20-bit ladder DAC and true 1 bit DSD for DSD content. It includes an Ethernet connection so the M21 is recognized as a DNLA device and becomes a powerful media renderer. Maybe add it to your audition list.

Thanks to everyone that took the time to be part of my thread. I just wanted to share my experience with other's in this crazy hobby. 

Thanks to the nice comments about my system!

We all have our own journey. Individually we decided how much we want to spend on a component and the sound we prefer.

Some have commented that I don't need a new DAC, but I'll tell the story of how I got to this point. I do have a good dealer(3ma Audio) and I try to purchase from them when possible. For over a year I listened to several speakers in my price range. I never heard speakers within my price range that made me want to sell my speakers. 3ma Audio recommended subwoofers and they brought them to my house. My wife thinks adding the REL No. 32 subwoofers was a great decision. I did the same thing with my amplifier and preamp. I sold my old amplifier and purchased Jeff Rowland 735 mono-amps. My next focus was on my source(music server and DAC). I was grateful to be able to get a home audition of the Antipodes Oladra music server. I don't want to exaggerate, but the Oladra simply took my system to the next level. Many said the DAC had more impact than the music server, so I got a home auditions of the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC, DCS Bartok(non-APEX), and DCS Rossini APEX. The Tambaqui was very similar to the Dave. In my system the Bartok lacked detail. The Rossini did everything better than any DAC that I've ever heard in my system. The soundstage was bigger, better spacing, and more detail. Unfortunately, in my system the overall tonality was too forward/bright. My experience with the Rossini made me want to pursue changing from my Chord Dave. I would love to find a DAC that does everything the DCS Rossini APEX does, that isn't as forward/bright. 

Perhaps consider approaching an established YouTube reviewer for feedback on your system.

I have access via Patreon (£30 subscription) to the British Audiophile who has provided excellent feedback and suggestions to improve my system synergy.

Of course there are many YouTube reviewers who offer this service, John Darko, Ron at New Record Day, Cheapaudioman etc.

Enjoy the music!

I’d have some fun with the idiot…Go back with some really poorly recorded media, some really poorly mastered stuff, some cheap 80’s vinyl or something…Let him play it on his so called better system… LOL, then tell him how crappy his stuff sounds and walk out … LMAO 😂😂😂

@hgeifman So paypal probalby has good cybersecurity...but we thought all the airlines did too.  and we thought United Healthcare did too.  Now most of our SSNs and healthcare history is on the dark web.  

and did Audiogon really erase it or did they just delete it and it is sitting there waiting for a skilled hacker to restore it?

I'll pass.

Jerry

In my experience, dealers are useless. I'd love to give a brick and mortar store my business, but so far it's been mostly disappointing. 

- when looking for a TT upgrade, shop said LP-12 or bust. Said I don't like the LP12, never got a reply, so went elsewhere.

- Tried to get a Pass amp and also a Rega table from local stores, but they cannot provide.

- Tried to get some TT education and requested testing set-up (at their discretion) to find out whether I could hear differences plinths. Flat out refused/could not do it. And that was a major, well-known player, from whom I bought stuff before. The critical mind wonders why that could be ...

- bottom line, I just pick equipment based on reviews&discussions then find someone who can ship. So far so good.

If the salesman wasn’t the owner/manager, I would have a conversation with the manager regarding the salesman’s comments regarding your current system. Obviously, the salesman must use this tactic to generate sales. Unfortunately, he just ran into someone who is experienced and isn’t intimidated by these tactics. Again, talk to the owner and describe how they lost this sale as well as all future sales. I would also warn your local audio club members. 

I've had some great experiences with really good dealers. My most recent experience seems to be a more common theme with several people. How does this hobby grow, if dealers refuse to meet potential customers were they are? Everyone can't spend or doesn't want to spend over $50K for a component. 

carlsbad2, 

Thanks for the invite, but I live in Texas. For some reason I decided to stay away from tube based DACs. I will drive to Dallas before the new year and directly compare the Dave to the Ideon ION DAC. Although it will be different from my system, it should allow me to identify discernible differences between the two.

 prevent bots and spammers from sending messages in the forum’s

there are many ways to prevent it. Storing credit card info is probably the fishiest. 

I was absolutely torn about having to add my credit card but having received some friendly inquiries (and so much hate-mail too ) I did not want to be rude.

rubicon15,

He is the owner. I believe in humanity and try really hard to treat people the way I want to be treated. Some dealers have no use for people that only want to spend $20K on a DAC. 

Sounds like a poor salesperson.  There are good and poor salespeople in every sales setting.  Having sold and supervised sales people for years, I  do my research online before contacting a business.  I ask questions and listen to their answers.  There is usually some BS but if I hear too much and/or don’t enjoy interacting with the person I move on.  The only people that have to like your system are you and your wife.  The worst is when you get an arrogant salesperson that tries to overwhelm you with their knowledge and make you feel like you don’t know anything.  If I have time I’ll play the game and then walk away.  If not I just walk away.  Enjoy your musical journey and don’t let the turkeys get you down.  

Your system looks incredible to me. I gravitate to dealers that compliment what I have already. Insulting a customer in any way is foolish.

terenthia,

In my opinion Youtubers are worse than dealers. I've heard a Youtuber belittle people by stating that a poster is jealous of them or doesn't have the money to purchase the same level of equipment. I have a friend that owns a 2 million dollar home that's paid for, but doesn't own a super expensive audio system. He has the money to purchase what ever he wants, but chooses to save his money or spends it on other things he values more. The same Youtuber says you can't comment on equipment you don't own, but wants followers to make comments on what they're hearing over Youtube? Sorry, but for me Youtubers are for entertainment purposes only.

bubba12,

Thanks.

I don't need a dealer to tell me my system sucks. 

I belong to the Audiophoos of Oregon. They tell me free of charge.

ricred1

From my own personal opinion, I’m afraid I can’t agree with your statement.

Of course I respect your stance and you are entitled to it, however slowly slowly catchy monkey, research is key and of course in the end, it’s all down to your own lug ‘oles…

In many decades, I have been at a couple of dealers that were any good. Most of them will tell you that their stuff is the best, even here on agon. 
I attend shows and when I find something I like, I will bring it home along with others to audition them in my room and in my system. Most manufacturers/online dealers/local dealers will give you up to 30 days return policy. My buddy brought in many dacs a few years ago and for weeks we did many eval sessions. He bought 1 and returned the others.

I will never ask a dealer for their recommendation because I know what they will say. You need to trust your own ears and audition a component in your system in your room

@ricred1 

Well I went onto your profile and had a look at your system. If your dealer think it sucks then I think they might have to invent some new words to describe mine.

I wish I had a system as wonderful as  yours. Maybe mention the name of this trash delaer on this forum. They deserve to be shamed! Then find a new dealer.