Enough is Enough

I decided to keep my Chord Dave DAC and leave my 2-channel as is, but I did order a Trinnov Altitude 16. I want to improve my HT  and be done with it all! 

You have an awesome space that's perfect for relaxation and looks to be a very nice system.

I had a similar experience, a girl I dated Felt no romantic attraction to me so I gave up on dating.  The same holds true with your dealer experience.  Maybe you can find a way to recover from your bad experience.  I am still haunted.

This hobby is weird. It is very easy to look at the next purchase, another mod, update, etc. and forget that what you ALREADY own is excellent. Maybe you should sit tight.

The next product, next upgrade, etc. are always interesting but maybe what you have now sounds terrific. It feels great to just enjoy what you already own. Just a thought.

No point to upgrade dac if we dont study acoustic first to really hear the system/room at his optimal potential.

Then forget Dac and buy BACCH system as recommended above ...

It is what i would do....

But i am in ectasy with what i have now...

You are asking a barber if you need a haircut.

deep_333,

I have a phone appointment with them today.

sns,

I understand your post. I don't feel the need to prove anything to a dealer or anyone about my system. I know the dealer never heard my system. Even if he did and didn't like it, it's no big deal to me. Building an audio "system' is personal and very subjective. To be honest, when I first started in this hobby, I was concerned about what others thought about my system. I wanted to own certain components for the wrong reasons. As I grew in this hobby I've learned to trust my own ears. My wife has a lot of input about what I purchase. She hears better than I do and is usually right with her analysis. 

Seems to me audiophiles with quality systems very aware their systems high quality, some audio salesman stating its low quality speaks volumes as to their character and/or lack of knowledge, you should be educating that salesman and/or dealer.

deep_333,

Thanks for the information. I already sent AcousticFields an email.

Hope it works out for ya... I bought the ACDA carbon panels, as is from them. For diffusion, i went the diy route and followed their formula (formula, wood, saw, glue, nails, garage, saved some cash). You can see what they suggest for your room.

With your room size and a few of these acdas in there, taking care of the 'room resolution' bottleneck.. you're in for something you never heard at any show or anywhere...There's nothing wrong with being curious about different gear, different flavors. But, once you address the above mentioned and create the right foundation, you won't be 'missing' anything with your existing gear (diving into rabbit holes). 

I believe their core market is still pro, upper echelon studios, etc...but, it seems more audiophiles have caught on to it in recent times. 

Per @mitch2 ’s excellent six DAC review thread, maybe a demo of Mojo or Merason would be worth a shot. 

You guys that have 50k to throw down for a single component are way out of my league...50k for the whole system would be the upper end for me. I just can't throw more than that at a single system.

Took me a very long time to trust dealers again. The second brick n mortar the salesman pushed for a budget then tried to hard sell me a meh sounding system. Luckily the first store had GoldenEar Tritons with Parasound electronics so I knew what a decent system sounds like. Spent many years on my own researching online/magazines and demoing gear at brink n mortar/audio shows to build my analog+digital chains. Only recently that I found a dealer I can trust aka meet my needs vs making the sale - a shout out to Chris Thornton at Artisan Fidelity

@ricred1 

You have a beautiful system.  It’s a total shame, with brick and mortar stores closing right and left, there’s still 🤡’s out there. I wonder if he knows that he blew a potential $25k sale and that you will probably never step foot back into their business again?

terenthia,

Listening to the DCS Rossini Apex made me realize that there are DACs that do things that I prefer over the Dave. Like I’ve stated, unfortunately the Rossini Apex was too bright in my system, but the soundstage, retrieval of details, and a more 3-dimensional soundstage could easily be heard between the Dave and Rossini Apex. I'm not talking night and day differences, but easily discernible differences. I don’t know what I don’t know, so I try to listen to different components in my system to understand what a particular component is doing vs something else. I have zero desire to change any other component in my system and honestly can live happily with the Dave.

@ricred1 

I’ve just had a look at your system (I wasn’t aware this was possible on Audigon!)

What would you say your Chord Electronics Dave dac is lacking..?

im streaming from an Auralic Aries S1 > Chord Mscaler > Chord Hugo TT2

Of course dealers are in the business to make money. In sales your learn A,B,C(always be closing)...I taught Professional Selling Skills many years ago. I told my trainees to be honest with people,  always perpetuate, think longterm, and treat people like you want to be treated. People's financial situations often change over time. When you treated people right they usually become long term customers. When you mistreat customers, not only do you loose a sell, you loose future sells.

Dealers are in business to make money. Each salesperson has their own tactics, and some are more pressured to make a sale. You are looking, and they are selling. More industry experienced shop owners and sales people might have handled this differently.  If they don't know how to start by helping you to optimize your existing system, there are plenty of other dealers who can help you with that. 

My experience with dealers has been similar some stated above. Further my situation is much like the guy in Australia...no decent dealers locally or within an hour or two. Every place I have been in recent experience has been disappointing both for the lack of knowledge and tact of the salesperson or the willingness to show something more than a passing interest in meeting my need at the time. So consequently, I have sworn off dealers completely and will only buy direct after reading and trying to understand the differences in potential choices and choose what seems right for me. Not an easy task to be sure, but it beats the expense of running around to dealers hours away from home who don't give S**t whether you buy something appropriate for your needs/wants or not. Indifference to the customer is a huge turnoff. The inability of the salesperson to have at least an equivalent knowledge of audio and satisfy what I need with a suitable recommendation is frustrating and a complete waste of my time. I refuse to play that game anymore. I'm done with dealers.

Ask yourself two simple questions. Did you build your system to please yourself or to please others? Are you happy with the result? If the answers are 'yourself' and 'yes', why would you care what others think of your system, especially someone who has never even heard your system? Only an ignorant blowhard would make such an asinine judgement. 

Can't help on DAC choices, but would like to share a couple of experiences with salespeople!  By way of background, I live in Canberra, have lived in Melbourne, and visit Sydney a lot.  In Australia, distance is usually measured in driving-hours and these places are 3, 7 and 10 hours apart.

One day in Canberra, my trusted universal disk player failed and I only had a couple of spare hours to find a replacement.  There are really only a couple of dealers worthy of the name.  I told the first I was looking for a universal player that could handle SACDs.  He said "SACDs are no good, don't bother with them" and pushed vinyl.  I watched him demo some electro-techno noise, getting him a cheap speaker sale.  I did not bother to tell him I had 70 or so SACDs in my motorhome, and hundreds more at home. 

The second dealership asked me about my setup, and said they had just got the new Reavon players which looked like Oppo clones.  I'd never heard of Reavon, but walked out with one.  I was in a hurry!

There are a couple of world class dealers in Sydney.  One let me trial Krell gear on a full refund basis, even though I lived in Melbourne at the time. Recently they had a trade-in offer on Sonus faber where the full price you had paid on your trade-ins would be refunded.  I called in to see what the gotcha might be.  OK, the new speakers had to be at least 2.5 times the original price of the trade-ins, which in my case were Quad ESL-2905 electrostatics.  I asked if I could listen to some candidates, even though they were outside my price range. Nothing was too much trouble.  On my way out, I mentioned that I was really looking for some cheap speakers like KEF LS50s as standbys while I repaired my Quads.  The dealer does not sell Quad, nor KEF but mentioned that he had just traded a pair of KEF Reference 1s on the Sonus faber offer! 

Next day I auditioned KEF and other speakers at another dealership, who asked me absolutely nothing about me or my system, I phoned my original dealer to see if I could hear the Reference 1s.  When I got there, they were out of their boxes, properly positioned and the music I audition with was already cued on the streamer.  After a few minutes I said it was a pity they had to take them out of the boxes - sold!

In many ways they are better than the Quads, so I think this was a win-win.

A good salesperson will ask questions to find out what his prospect really needs, and a good prospect will help by being open and honest in his answers.  I hope I am not being sexist here but there seem to be very few hi-fi sales ladies, or female buyers.  When my partner goes looking for hi-fi with me, I have a hell of a job persuading salespeople that she is their prospect!  In fact, one dealer won't give me a price anymore because she bought a complete system elsewhere.  The dealer assumed she was a price shopper, but she paid much more to get good service on the same items.  Come to think of it, she bought from a female!

deep_333,

Thanks for the information. I already sent AcousticFields an email.

audiojacks,

I currently use a Chord Dave DAC. Prior to the Dave I had a PS Audio Directstream, Bricasti M1 SE, Jeff Rowland Aeris, and a Rockna Signature DAC. I prefer the Dave to the aforementioned DACs. Hearing the DCS Rossini APEX in my system made me want to pursue changing DACs.

I had a JR 625 S2, but currently use JR 735s with the Corus preamp. I'm considering changing my DAC and nothing else.

You didnt mention your DAC model. You have Rowland 625s. I have the 925s with the Aeris DAC and Coherence II preamp. Couldnt be happier. I run it with a Rockna Dreamwave Server bypassing the Rockna DAC and a separate Roon Core. Couldnt be happier. Try and find a used Aeris if you can. 

I would recommend you listen to a Goldnote DS1000, which runs “only” $8k.  I have a DS10, and a good friend of mine had a DCS Bartok (not Apex).  We did head-to-head listening tests.  With the optional external power supply, I preferred my Goldnote to his DCS - more midrange magic, and at less than half the price.  There are a number of Goldnote dealers in Texas.  Another interesting choice is a Simaudio 681 at $12k; again, more flesh on bones than dcs imho.

deep_333,

You can’t see my other sub, but I have two subs. The subs were set-up by the dealer using a mic/REW and several hours of listening,

@ricred1 , Well, considering where everything’s at with your 2 channel gear you are pretty much stuck there..

unless, you get a li’l more adventurous and get a BACCH processor from Theortica Applied Physics. You may never know what it feels like to get launched inside a recording until you have something like BACCH in the chain (for 2 channel audio, that is, multichannel’s a different story).

Otherwise, you could keep swapping dacs, amps, cables, etc forever... with no quantum leap, it is just another case of being stuck in the same watering hole comparing notes with the same ol’ guys who are stuck there as well...(thinking y’all heard this or that).

Further, If you need to know about the kind of room treatment that gets you notches further in a dedicated room like yours (something you could strive towards in the longer term), it isn’t cheap or easy to do...(a bit cheaper if you’re diy savvy though).

Here’s one if you’re NOT a diy kinda guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-ydC9IB0G8

Here’s another if you are a diy kinda guy.

https://youtu.be/tKWAI21G0bc?si=Q7GARnEkHvC26dJ7

Hope that helps.

As stated by @rbstehno 

I will never ask a dealer for their recommendation because I know what they will say. You need to trust your own ears and audition a component in your system in your room.

Simply that.  If you must visit a dealer, look, listen, and then arrange an audition in your system.  Some dealers are knowledgeable and may share interesting observations but, at the end of the day, your opinion is the only one that counts. 

Man, that is pure insanity.

I’ve been a record store owner for a very long time, and have on again, off again, been an audio dealer, and we are currently making a strong play to get very heavy into Hi-Fi. 
 

I have VERY often told people the exact opposite. Get to know your system, and upgrade slowly. Then, each change you make will be just as impactful as swapping an entire rig out. 
 

You know that feeling you get when you get a new piece of kit and you get to rediscover your entire record collection all over again? 
 

Why wouldn’t you want to do that over and over again? Isn’t that part of the fun? 
 

Morrison @ Hardcore Hi-Fi
 

Slightly off topic, but related. I had a tv calibrator who I had used twice before refuse to calibrate my projector because I was using a Yamaha surround processor and amp. Related to that, I was in the market to replace my front main speakers and another dealer told me that my Yamaha gear was garbage and that I needed to change out my hardware.

Sorry for any misunderstanding, but I didn’t ask for the dealers opinion about my system. I let my wife’s ears(she hears better than me and is honest about what she hears), my ears, and how much I want to spend determine what to purchase. I usually listen to components in my system, but the dealer I usually buy from only carries DCS and Chord. DCS doesn’t work in my system, based on my preference. A friend recommended I try to get a home audition for the Ideon ION DAC. That’s why I reached out to this particular dealer.

I won’t post the dealers name, because there’s no value in it to me. I honestly posted my experience to highlight how some dealers behave. My hope is "we" all learn to use our own ears to decide what to purchase and not be shamed for not owning what some dealer says we should own.

yeah, his system is like a million bucks! Nothing I can and will ever dream of 

@ricred1 

Well I went onto your profile and had a look at your system. If your dealer think it sucks then I think they might have to invent some new words to describe mine.

I wish I had a system as wonderful as  yours. Maybe mention the name of this trash delaer on this forum. They deserve to be shamed! Then find a new dealer.

In many decades, I have been at a couple of dealers that were any good. Most of them will tell you that their stuff is the best, even here on agon. 
I attend shows and when I find something I like, I will bring it home along with others to audition them in my room and in my system. Most manufacturers/online dealers/local dealers will give you up to 30 days return policy. My buddy brought in many dacs a few years ago and for weeks we did many eval sessions. He bought 1 and returned the others.

I will never ask a dealer for their recommendation because I know what they will say. You need to trust your own ears and audition a component in your system in your room

ricred1

From my own personal opinion, I’m afraid I can’t agree with your statement.

Of course I respect your stance and you are entitled to it, however slowly slowly catchy monkey, research is key and of course in the end, it’s all down to your own lug ‘oles…

I don't need a dealer to tell me my system sucks. 

I belong to the Audiophoos of Oregon. They tell me free of charge.

bubba12,

Thanks.

terenthia,

In my opinion Youtubers are worse than dealers. I've heard a Youtuber belittle people by stating that a poster is jealous of them or doesn't have the money to purchase the same level of equipment. I have a friend that owns a 2 million dollar home that's paid for, but doesn't own a super expensive audio system. He has the money to purchase what ever he wants, but chooses to save his money or spends it on other things he values more. The same Youtuber says you can't comment on equipment you don't own, but wants followers to make comments on what they're hearing over Youtube? Sorry, but for me Youtubers are for entertainment purposes only.

Your system looks incredible to me. I gravitate to dealers that compliment what I have already. Insulting a customer in any way is foolish.

Sounds like a poor salesperson.  There are good and poor salespeople in every sales setting.  Having sold and supervised sales people for years, I  do my research online before contacting a business.  I ask questions and listen to their answers.  There is usually some BS but if I hear too much and/or don’t enjoy interacting with the person I move on.  The only people that have to like your system are you and your wife.  The worst is when you get an arrogant salesperson that tries to overwhelm you with their knowledge and make you feel like you don’t know anything.  If I have time I’ll play the game and then walk away.  If not I just walk away.  Enjoy your musical journey and don’t let the turkeys get you down.  

rubicon15,

He is the owner. I believe in humanity and try really hard to treat people the way I want to be treated. Some dealers have no use for people that only want to spend $20K on a DAC. 

 prevent bots and spammers from sending messages in the forum’s

there are many ways to prevent it. Storing credit card info is probably the fishiest. 

I was absolutely torn about having to add my credit card but having received some friendly inquiries (and so much hate-mail too ) I did not want to be rude.

carlsbad2, 

Thanks for the invite, but I live in Texas. For some reason I decided to stay away from tube based DACs. I will drive to Dallas before the new year and directly compare the Dave to the Ideon ION DAC. Although it will be different from my system, it should allow me to identify discernible differences between the two.

I've had some great experiences with really good dealers. My most recent experience seems to be a more common theme with several people. How does this hobby grow, if dealers refuse to meet potential customers were they are? Everyone can't spend or doesn't want to spend over $50K for a component. 

If the salesman wasn’t the owner/manager, I would have a conversation with the manager regarding the salesman’s comments regarding your current system. Obviously, the salesman must use this tactic to generate sales. Unfortunately, he just ran into someone who is experienced and isn’t intimidated by these tactics. Again, talk to the owner and describe how they lost this sale as well as all future sales. I would also warn your local audio club members. 

In my experience, dealers are useless. I'd love to give a brick and mortar store my business, but so far it's been mostly disappointing. 

- when looking for a TT upgrade, shop said LP-12 or bust. Said I don't like the LP12, never got a reply, so went elsewhere.

- Tried to get a Pass amp and also a Rega table from local stores, but they cannot provide.

- Tried to get some TT education and requested testing set-up (at their discretion) to find out whether I could hear differences plinths. Flat out refused/could not do it. And that was a major, well-known player, from whom I bought stuff before. The critical mind wonders why that could be ...

- bottom line, I just pick equipment based on reviews&discussions then find someone who can ship. So far so good.

@hgeifman So paypal probalby has good cybersecurity...but we thought all the airlines did too.  and we thought United Healthcare did too.  Now most of our SSNs and healthcare history is on the dark web.  

and did Audiogon really erase it or did they just delete it and it is sitting there waiting for a skilled hacker to restore it?

I'll pass.

Jerry

I’d have some fun with the idiot…Go back with some really poorly recorded media, some really poorly mastered stuff, some cheap 80’s vinyl or something…Let him play it on his so called better system… LOL, then tell him how crappy his stuff sounds and walk out … LMAO 😂😂😂

Perhaps consider approaching an established YouTube reviewer for feedback on your system.

I have access via Patreon (£30 subscription) to the British Audiophile who has provided excellent feedback and suggestions to improve my system synergy.

Of course there are many YouTube reviewers who offer this service, John Darko, Ron at New Record Day, Cheapaudioman etc.

Enjoy the music!

Thanks to everyone that took the time to be part of my thread. I just wanted to share my experience with other's in this crazy hobby. 

Thanks to the nice comments about my system!

We all have our own journey. Individually we decided how much we want to spend on a component and the sound we prefer.

Some have commented that I don't need a new DAC, but I'll tell the story of how I got to this point. I do have a good dealer(3ma Audio) and I try to purchase from them when possible. For over a year I listened to several speakers in my price range. I never heard speakers within my price range that made me want to sell my speakers. 3ma Audio recommended subwoofers and they brought them to my house. My wife thinks adding the REL No. 32 subwoofers was a great decision. I did the same thing with my amplifier and preamp. I sold my old amplifier and purchased Jeff Rowland 735 mono-amps. My next focus was on my source(music server and DAC). I was grateful to be able to get a home audition of the Antipodes Oladra music server. I don't want to exaggerate, but the Oladra simply took my system to the next level. Many said the DAC had more impact than the music server, so I got a home auditions of the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC, DCS Bartok(non-APEX), and DCS Rossini APEX. The Tambaqui was very similar to the Dave. In my system the Bartok lacked detail. The Rossini did everything better than any DAC that I've ever heard in my system. The soundstage was bigger, better spacing, and more detail. Unfortunately, in my system the overall tonality was too forward/bright. My experience with the Rossini made me want to pursue changing from my Chord Dave. I would love to find a DAC that does everything the DCS Rossini APEX does, that isn't as forward/bright. 

@ricred1,

I also suggest you forget your retailer and trust your ears.

I like my Bricasti M21 DAC very much because it sounds great. The DAC has a 24-bit delta sigma DAC, a 20-bit ladder DAC and true 1 bit DSD for DSD content. It includes an Ethernet connection so the M21 is recognized as a DNLA device and becomes a powerful media renderer. Maybe add it to your audition list.

 ricred1  Forget dealers suggestions , trust your ears. I have Ideon audio DAC now and it is the best dac i ever had . They know how to kill USB hum.