Enough is Enough

yeah, his system is like a million bucks! Nothing I can and will ever dream of 

Sorry for any misunderstanding, but I didn’t ask for the dealers opinion about my system. I let my wife’s ears(she hears better than me and is honest about what she hears), my ears, and how much I want to spend determine what to purchase. I usually listen to components in my system, but the dealer I usually buy from only carries DCS and Chord. DCS doesn’t work in my system, based on my preference. A friend recommended I try to get a home audition for the Ideon ION DAC. That’s why I reached out to this particular dealer.

I won’t post the dealers name, because there’s no value in it to me. I honestly posted my experience to highlight how some dealers behave. My hope is "we" all learn to use our own ears to decide what to purchase and not be shamed for not owning what some dealer says we should own.

Slightly off topic, but related. I had a tv calibrator who I had used twice before refuse to calibrate my projector because I was using a Yamaha surround processor and amp. Related to that, I was in the market to replace my front main speakers and another dealer told me that my Yamaha gear was garbage and that I needed to change out my hardware.

Man, that is pure insanity.

I’ve been a record store owner for a very long time, and have on again, off again, been an audio dealer, and we are currently making a strong play to get very heavy into Hi-Fi. 
 

I have VERY often told people the exact opposite. Get to know your system, and upgrade slowly. Then, each change you make will be just as impactful as swapping an entire rig out. 
 

You know that feeling you get when you get a new piece of kit and you get to rediscover your entire record collection all over again? 
 

Why wouldn’t you want to do that over and over again? Isn’t that part of the fun? 
 

Morrison @ Hardcore Hi-Fi
 

As stated by @rbstehno 

I will never ask a dealer for their recommendation because I know what they will say. You need to trust your own ears and audition a component in your system in your room.

Simply that.  If you must visit a dealer, look, listen, and then arrange an audition in your system.  Some dealers are knowledgeable and may share interesting observations but, at the end of the day, your opinion is the only one that counts. 

deep_333,

You can’t see my other sub, but I have two subs. The subs were set-up by the dealer using a mic/REW and several hours of listening,

@ricred1 , Well, considering where everything’s at with your 2 channel gear you are pretty much stuck there..

unless, you get a li’l more adventurous and get a BACCH processor from Theortica Applied Physics. You may never know what it feels like to get launched inside a recording until you have something like BACCH in the chain (for 2 channel audio, that is, multichannel’s a different story).

Otherwise, you could keep swapping dacs, amps, cables, etc forever... with no quantum leap, it is just another case of being stuck in the same watering hole comparing notes with the same ol’ guys who are stuck there as well...(thinking y’all heard this or that).

Further, If you need to know about the kind of room treatment that gets you notches further in a dedicated room like yours (something you could strive towards in the longer term), it isn’t cheap or easy to do...(a bit cheaper if you’re diy savvy though).

Here’s one if you’re NOT a diy kinda guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-ydC9IB0G8

Here’s another if you are a diy kinda guy.

https://youtu.be/tKWAI21G0bc?si=Q7GARnEkHvC26dJ7

Hope that helps.

I would recommend you listen to a Goldnote DS1000, which runs “only” $8k.  I have a DS10, and a good friend of mine had a DCS Bartok (not Apex).  We did head-to-head listening tests.  With the optional external power supply, I preferred my Goldnote to his DCS - more midrange magic, and at less than half the price.  There are a number of Goldnote dealers in Texas.  Another interesting choice is a Simaudio 681 at $12k; again, more flesh on bones than dcs imho.

You didnt mention your DAC model. You have Rowland 625s. I have the 925s with the Aeris DAC and Coherence II preamp. Couldnt be happier. I run it with a Rockna Dreamwave Server bypassing the Rockna DAC and a separate Roon Core. Couldnt be happier. Try and find a used Aeris if you can. 

audiojacks,

I currently use a Chord Dave DAC. Prior to the Dave I had a PS Audio Directstream, Bricasti M1 SE, Jeff Rowland Aeris, and a Rockna Signature DAC. I prefer the Dave to the aforementioned DACs. Hearing the DCS Rossini APEX in my system made me want to pursue changing DACs.

I had a JR 625 S2, but currently use JR 735s with the Corus preamp. I'm considering changing my DAC and nothing else.

deep_333,

Thanks for the information. I already sent AcousticFields an email.

Can't help on DAC choices, but would like to share a couple of experiences with salespeople!  By way of background, I live in Canberra, have lived in Melbourne, and visit Sydney a lot.  In Australia, distance is usually measured in driving-hours and these places are 3, 7 and 10 hours apart.

One day in Canberra, my trusted universal disk player failed and I only had a couple of spare hours to find a replacement.  There are really only a couple of dealers worthy of the name.  I told the first I was looking for a universal player that could handle SACDs.  He said "SACDs are no good, don't bother with them" and pushed vinyl.  I watched him demo some electro-techno noise, getting him a cheap speaker sale.  I did not bother to tell him I had 70 or so SACDs in my motorhome, and hundreds more at home. 

The second dealership asked me about my setup, and said they had just got the new Reavon players which looked like Oppo clones.  I'd never heard of Reavon, but walked out with one.  I was in a hurry!

There are a couple of world class dealers in Sydney.  One let me trial Krell gear on a full refund basis, even though I lived in Melbourne at the time. Recently they had a trade-in offer on Sonus faber where the full price you had paid on your trade-ins would be refunded.  I called in to see what the gotcha might be.  OK, the new speakers had to be at least 2.5 times the original price of the trade-ins, which in my case were Quad ESL-2905 electrostatics.  I asked if I could listen to some candidates, even though they were outside my price range. Nothing was too much trouble.  On my way out, I mentioned that I was really looking for some cheap speakers like KEF LS50s as standbys while I repaired my Quads.  The dealer does not sell Quad, nor KEF but mentioned that he had just traded a pair of KEF Reference 1s on the Sonus faber offer! 

Next day I auditioned KEF and other speakers at another dealership, who asked me absolutely nothing about me or my system, I phoned my original dealer to see if I could hear the Reference 1s.  When I got there, they were out of their boxes, properly positioned and the music I audition with was already cued on the streamer.  After a few minutes I said it was a pity they had to take them out of the boxes - sold!

In many ways they are better than the Quads, so I think this was a win-win.

A good salesperson will ask questions to find out what his prospect really needs, and a good prospect will help by being open and honest in his answers.  I hope I am not being sexist here but there seem to be very few hi-fi sales ladies, or female buyers.  When my partner goes looking for hi-fi with me, I have a hell of a job persuading salespeople that she is their prospect!  In fact, one dealer won't give me a price anymore because she bought a complete system elsewhere.  The dealer assumed she was a price shopper, but she paid much more to get good service on the same items.  Come to think of it, she bought from a female!

Ask yourself two simple questions. Did you build your system to please yourself or to please others? Are you happy with the result? If the answers are 'yourself' and 'yes', why would you care what others think of your system, especially someone who has never even heard your system? Only an ignorant blowhard would make such an asinine judgement. 

My experience with dealers has been similar some stated above. Further my situation is much like the guy in Australia...no decent dealers locally or within an hour or two. Every place I have been in recent experience has been disappointing both for the lack of knowledge and tact of the salesperson or the willingness to show something more than a passing interest in meeting my need at the time. So consequently, I have sworn off dealers completely and will only buy direct after reading and trying to understand the differences in potential choices and choose what seems right for me. Not an easy task to be sure, but it beats the expense of running around to dealers hours away from home who don't give S**t whether you buy something appropriate for your needs/wants or not. Indifference to the customer is a huge turnoff. The inability of the salesperson to have at least an equivalent knowledge of audio and satisfy what I need with a suitable recommendation is frustrating and a complete waste of my time. I refuse to play that game anymore. I'm done with dealers.

Dealers are in business to make money. Each salesperson has their own tactics, and some are more pressured to make a sale. You are looking, and they are selling. More industry experienced shop owners and sales people might have handled this differently.  If they don't know how to start by helping you to optimize your existing system, there are plenty of other dealers who can help you with that. 

Of course dealers are in the business to make money. In sales your learn A,B,C(always be closing)...I taught Professional Selling Skills many years ago. I told my trainees to be honest with people,  always perpetuate, think longterm, and treat people like you want to be treated. People's financial situations often change over time. When you treated people right they usually become long term customers. When you mistreat customers, not only do you loose a sell, you loose future sells.

@ricred1 

I’ve just had a look at your system (I wasn’t aware this was possible on Audigon!)

What would you say your Chord Electronics Dave dac is lacking..?

im streaming from an Auralic Aries S1 > Chord Mscaler > Chord Hugo TT2

terenthia,

Listening to the DCS Rossini Apex made me realize that there are DACs that do things that I prefer over the Dave. Like I’ve stated, unfortunately the Rossini Apex was too bright in my system, but the soundstage, retrieval of details, and a more 3-dimensional soundstage could easily be heard between the Dave and Rossini Apex. I'm not talking night and day differences, but easily discernible differences. I don’t know what I don’t know, so I try to listen to different components in my system to understand what a particular component is doing vs something else. I have zero desire to change any other component in my system and honestly can live happily with the Dave.

@ricred1 

You have a beautiful system.  It’s a total shame, with brick and mortar stores closing right and left, there’s still 🤡’s out there. I wonder if he knows that he blew a potential $25k sale and that you will probably never step foot back into their business again?

Took me a very long time to trust dealers again. The second brick n mortar the salesman pushed for a budget then tried to hard sell me a meh sounding system. Luckily the first store had GoldenEar Tritons with Parasound electronics so I knew what a decent system sounds like. Spent many years on my own researching online/magazines and demoing gear at brink n mortar/audio shows to build my analog+digital chains. Only recently that I found a dealer I can trust aka meet my needs vs making the sale - a shout out to Chris Thornton at Artisan Fidelity

You guys that have 50k to throw down for a single component are way out of my league...50k for the whole system would be the upper end for me. I just can't throw more than that at a single system.

Per @mitch2 ’s excellent six DAC review thread, maybe a demo of Mojo or Merason would be worth a shot. 

deep_333,

Thanks for the information. I already sent AcousticFields an email.

Hope it works out for ya... I bought the ACDA carbon panels, as is from them. For diffusion, i went the diy route and followed their formula (formula, wood, saw, glue, nails, garage, saved some cash). You can see what they suggest for your room.

With your room size and a few of these acdas in there, taking care of the 'room resolution' bottleneck.. you're in for something you never heard at any show or anywhere...There's nothing wrong with being curious about different gear, different flavors. But, once you address the above mentioned and create the right foundation, you won't be 'missing' anything with your existing gear (diving into rabbit holes). 

I believe their core market is still pro, upper echelon studios, etc...but, it seems more audiophiles have caught on to it in recent times. 

Seems to me audiophiles with quality systems very aware their systems high quality, some audio salesman stating its low quality speaks volumes as to their character and/or lack of knowledge, you should be educating that salesman and/or dealer.

sns,

I understand your post. I don't feel the need to prove anything to a dealer or anyone about my system. I know the dealer never heard my system. Even if he did and didn't like it, it's no big deal to me. Building an audio "system' is personal and very subjective. To be honest, when I first started in this hobby, I was concerned about what others thought about my system. I wanted to own certain components for the wrong reasons. As I grew in this hobby I've learned to trust my own ears. My wife has a lot of input about what I purchase. She hears better than I do and is usually right with her analysis. 

deep_333,

I have a phone appointment with them today.

You are asking a barber if you need a haircut.

No point to upgrade dac if we dont study acoustic first to really hear the system/room at his optimal potential.

Then forget Dac and buy BACCH system as recommended above ...

It is what i would do....

But i am in ectasy with what i have now...

This hobby is weird. It is very easy to look at the next purchase, another mod, update, etc. and forget that what you ALREADY own is excellent. Maybe you should sit tight.

The next product, next upgrade, etc. are always interesting but maybe what you have now sounds terrific. It feels great to just enjoy what you already own. Just a thought.

You have an awesome space that's perfect for relaxation and looks to be a very nice system.

I had a similar experience, a girl I dated Felt no romantic attraction to me so I gave up on dating.  The same holds true with your dealer experience.  Maybe you can find a way to recover from your bad experience.  I am still haunted.

I decided to keep my Chord Dave DAC and leave my 2-channel as is, but I did order a Trinnov Altitude 16. I want to improve my HT  and be done with it all!