Can you give me your speaker suggestions?

Could you have this backwards? You should be looking at the source as the weak point.

Just a suggestion.  If multiple amps are having trouble on the low end, you may not be providing an adequate power supply.  Using a power conditioner?  14 awg cord?

@palutena audition B&W 800 series speakers. The SF Sonetto are good too but they don’t have the pulp mids you’re looking for and are light on bass. Other speakers to consider would be the older Wilson Sophia that you can find used within your price range. 

Cornwalls. If you had more power Magneplanar 3.7i 

Ref 3A de Capo

Nice detailed and rich midrange with good bass for a standmount

I also have Klipsch Quartets and I love the live sound they provide but for overall full sound the de Capos have it

running both with low watt 4-6wpc tube amps

I would agree that the quality of the amplification and the choice of speaker are both variables here. In my experience, Klipsch has incredible presence but the sonic challenges you state are common and dissatisfactory. I’ve found Klipsch to work better with beefy SET amps or high current (not necessarily high power) solid state amplifiers. Both of the amps you mention aren’t the best for that.

I had the Prologue Premium about eight years ago. It was a great amp, but it wasn’t until I moved up the chain to realize how much more oomph a better amp would deliver and how much better a speaker could sound with it. If you plan to keep the Primaluna and haven’t upgraded from the stock tubes, I would highly recommend upgrading the output tubes to Gold Lion KT88 if you can find them (seems stock is low nationwide). They are amongst the beefiest sounding out there and will give you a considerable improvement in what you are looking for over the stock EL34.

i  agree with others that power cables and supplies will also make an impact, but in my experience it affects the whole frequency spectrum and not just where you want to emphasize - so while this is worth looking into, it may not easily solve your problems. 

If you upgrade your speakers to ones that have more midbass and midrange density, chances are they will also be harder to drive and require a more capable amp.

Speaker suggestions nonetheless, I would highly recommend looking into Legacy Audio. It’s just above your price range, but the Legacy Classic HD would be one I would recommend. You may even find one on the used market for much less and well within your budget, but ensure that it is the most current generation model as the Classic HD has been around for over a decade.

Ive also been very impressed with the Wharfedale Elysian 2, and it looks like there is a nice pair on one of the used marketplaces that I have no affiliation with. And don’t let the small form factor fool you - that speaker lets out a big sound that flows well and offers good clarity, all while delivering a bit of the Wharfedale/British hifi warmth.

Both are fairly easy to drive and would work well with your Primaluna, especially if you upgrade your output tubes, which I would recommend doing first.

My B&W 803 D3 definitely give me "musicians in the room" but they are not in your budget. I would consider Klipsch or JBL. Just my 2c...

And Monitor Audio. Have the Silver 8s in another system and they make more bass than the 803s.

Strongly recommend Monitor Audio over Klipsch or JBL.

Dyna Contour or Harbeth, used

@palutena Wrote:

Can you give me your speaker suggestions?

I am using a prima luna prologue premium with 37ish watt/channel,

my current budget is around $4-6K USD,

Klipsch Cornwall IV!

https://www.klipsch.com/products/cornwall-iv-floorstanding-speaker

Mike

You sound like a B&W guy. They completely play to your tastes. Load them up with watts (MacIntosh) and you’ll be in Heaven. Go listen to them.

thank you every for taking the time to reply! 

the Cornwalls I feel would be perfect, other than space, even though its a decent size listening area, its a shared room and unfortunately cant have that big of a foot print at leas for the time being. 

you all have peaked my interest on dynaudio, elysian 2's, and B&W, ill definitely have to make a trip to the closest dealers (about 2 hours away) and report back when I get a chance to hear them (hopefully this weekend or next) 

im also playing with the idea of selling both of my amps, and getting a one of the 70ish wpm PrimaLuna amps (either the current evo 400, or the older dialogue premium hp) perhaps this is the best solution for me for the tube sound I like and more power I will likely need. 

Diy is an option for sure although I wouldn’t know which one to suggest.

If you like the live detailed sound of the Klipsch but want more meat in the bones and an easier listen Tekton is really good and can be pushed by about anything with differing sound quality success but not lack of power. Just a thought.

Love me some Focal speakers also. 5-6k won’t get you too far into the newer stuff but some Electras would be really nice.

+1 for Focal Electras.  I purchased model 1027 Be in 2007 and always loved them.  I moved them to my 2nd bed room.  You should be able to find that model or related model numbers of Electras on the used market within your budget.

Truth be told I'm not a fan of Prima Luna. Auditioned the EVO 400 recently but wasn't for me.  With that being said GoldenEar speakers may be an option for you. 

Having desperately tried to like Klipsch, to me, they sound simply awful, I'm sure my ears bleed. Monitor Audio and Harbeth are the other extreme. I use a 40 watt tube amp with EL24 tubes and drive either pair of my Audio Physics ( 89dB/ 4 ohms) louder than anybody needs. Detail is astounding, soundstage is better.

If you are handy, try GR Research speakers. I brought my speakers down for an upgrade and ended up purchasing their NX-Otica's. I listened to their big brother, the NX-Tremes and was totally blown away. I have listened to many high end systems and NX-Tremes were one of the very best I have listened to. The slightly younger brother sound almost as good. Type in NX-Oticas into youtube and you will hear what I'm talking about! Good luck!

I switched from the original Heresy model to Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G and I have been very happy.  One of my listening buddies who complained about lack of bass on the Heresy is now very happy.  Bass is tight and very present, but not overwhelming.  I do have a large rectangular room that is pretty ideal and I am driving them with a Cary Audio SLI-100.

Since you said you would consider DIY, my recommendation is to add a Zobel Network to each driver in the enclosure. Almost every loudspeaker can be improved by flattening the impedance curve and therefore allowing the crossover to perform at its best. All you need to do is remove each speaker, disconnect the wires, and measure the DC resistance and Inductance with a meter. Attach the calculated resistor and capacitor in series between the terminals, reattach the wires and replace the speaker.

Speaker Zobel / Impedance Equalization Circuit Calculator

If you are really keen, you could then add a Zobel Network to the external loudspeaker terminals after doing fresh measurements, and then perhaps even add another Zobel Network at the amplifier. Disconnect the speaker wires and measure the resistance and inductance of the wires while still connected to the speaker.

@captaindidactic I will look into those, I have no problem going the diy route, I’ve watched some of his videos on YouTube and he seems to know what he’s doing.

update:

I got my hands on a eq and had to boost the the 200hz range 4-6db to find a satisfying level. some people have told me it might be a room problem or a source problem because I shouldn’t have to boost it that much in order to find it satisfying.

out of curiosity I dusted off a 20 year old psb bookshelf speaker that my dad had in storage (6ohm 88db). immediately the range I was missing was there, more weight and punch out of a 6 inch two way with the same source and both my amps ran them with no problem. of course with these speakers Im missing the open midrange range and upper frequencies, im missing the way acoustics guitars, vocals and horns just seem to flow out so effortlessly as they do with the heresys. and of course the same sense of scale was not there with the bookshelf. but it was nice to know it seems to not be a room or source issue, and so I will continue the hunt for new speakers.

Perhaps for your case a bookshelf might be a better option?

I think Audiovector R1 Arrete is perfect for your needs. It is incredibly meaty sounding for a bookshelf and certainly has enough bass. 

If you can spring an additional thousand, the new Triangle Magellan Duetto 40th Anniversary is awesome. 

Palutena,

I highly recommend installing a dedicated circuit and a high quality receptacle like the Furutech GTX-D. This was one of the biggest improvements for low frequency response and attack. Dedicated line is about $300 to $400, and the receptacle is about $175.

This will pay large dividends whether you keep or change your speakers. Better yet have a second line pulled, might be a couple hundred dollars more. Use one line for only the amplifier (Plug amp directly into the receptacle and NOT through a conditioner), and the other for signal components.

Use a good power cable, Zavfino, Audioquest , or DH Labs make good cables for a reasonable cost…..$200 to $300, more expensive if you choose.

For DIY, check out my modded Tyler acoustics Halo Extreme.  Upgraded crossover,  Audio Maven 12inch woofers , morel mids and Seas millennium tweeters.  Giant killers. Low dB and you hear it all. The speakers were very nice to begin with but I wanted more and got a little carried away.  Hope Ty don't get mad at me.

Given your sonic preferences, room and budget, you might want to consider used Devore o/93’s.

If you like horns there is no going back as the dynamics are addictive. Sonus Faber would be super boring unless you are into “audiophile” music… I am not. But they would be balanced. I heard the Olympica III and Cornwall Vi back to back at my dealer. The Sonus Faber is refined typical audiophile stuff (good not amazing) and the Cornwall is brash and hard in comparison but has much more lifelike dynamics and snap.

you can get a pair of JBL 590s for $1000 right now they are better in every way to your current speaker. If you hate the looks the 698 is about $1700. Both can be bought from places with return policy (60 day trial).

the Cornwall is the obvious choice if you like Klispch (no hate I own some as well) It is not too bad and will fix your issues with the heresy which IMO is a dumpster fire.

I think JBLs are much more refined and with less resonances (wiggles in the response) than the equivalent Klispch but they are more money. Cornwall IV (demoed) vs JBL 4367 (I own) and I will take the JBL every time as it does all things better.

There are a couple of pairs of JBL 4349 in your price range on audio mart. There is also a pair of 4367 on here right now for $8500. Cry once and own a speaker that is as good as they come.

@auroravengeance I actually love how these bookshelves imaged today, but I think I would miss that sense of scale that I seem to hear with the floor standers ive heard so im pretty sold on a floor stander or at least a big bookshelf type. 

@knighttodd thank you for pointing me to this company, I have never hear of them before and im considering the halo 1 as that may be more practical for me. 

I also found this diy kit that I feel might fit the bill, https://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SBAcoustics-10.htm

he describes the sound as "Bass is deep, potent and dynamic. Need I say more? I won't. Middriver and tweeter deliver an astonishing level of transparency…Transient response is phenomenal!" but I cant find much information on them online from people who built them. 

As for everyone's suggestions, I will be visiting a few dealers that carry a lot of your suggestions, offerings from JBL, B&W, Dynaudio, wharfedale, monitor audio, have peaked my interest

thanks again for taking the time to help me out 

OP- You pretty much described my Fyne Audio F502SPs

@palutena The Duettos are certainly not small and they have a good sense of scale. I’m struggling to think anything as good as the Duettos at their price point, they are that good IMO.

I am going to second the recommendation of Elysian 2. And while at it, if you can, try the Mission 770. For compact floorstanders, I’ve had the pleasure of auditioning QLN Prestige 3 and they were stunning. They were out of your budget, but if cheaper Sonora is even 80% as good the Prestige 3, they should warrant consideration. 

Speakers will by far be the defining sound of your system. Sure, upstream electronics will make a difference and they need to match well, but by and large, speakers are what make a system sound the way it does. It sounds to me you like the idea of your speakers more than you like the actuality of them. I'm a Vandersteen guy and would strongly recommend something in their line as I think they can give you the "in the room" experience that you're looking for. I'd recommend some new model 2s or maybe some used treo or quatros. 

What I'd really recommend tho, is seeing what dealers near you have to listen to. It might be that you need to drive some hours to hear all these options, but go listen. Find what sounds good to you. Once you've done that, you can decide what the best electronics are and it might be that you need to take some time to figure that out. For instance, I just now got some new amps that have improved staging and depth and clarity. This is after spending the last 3 years looking for the right preamp and getting that right a a few months ago. Neither the amps nor the preamp fundamentally changed the sound of my speakers though. 

Ultimately what I'm saying is you'll get some ideas of what you might like here but before you spend 6k, go listen. 

Some great suggestions here, OP ... please take a look at:

https://www.salksound.com

TMR has several offerings in your budget:

https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/?tab=products&page=6

Check out the Volti Audio Razz. Might be just what you’re looking for. Very well hand made in TN by Greg Roberts, sound excellent, very dynamic like all the Klipsch but w/ more nuance & better tone, look nice w/ lots of finish options & aren’t huge. I think they’re Stereophile class B ( if that means anything to you) & around $6K. 

Great advice here. Do not try and match a speaker to your amplifier, try and match the speaker to your ROOM.  https://youtu.be/RbHPylgz4Us

But, if you want to keep your amps, be careful with speaker selection.  I like the idea of high efficacy speakers.  This makes amp selection easier.

I'd look at the Forte IV or CW IV--right up Klipsch's line.  

I'd bet the Forte IV would do the trick.  I actually think they have as much bass weight and meat on the low end as the CWIV because of the passive radiator in the  rear.  

Another option that I think would do it is the KLH Model 7.  It will be $4k a pair with stands.  I heard them at AXPONA and was amazed at what they could do.  I think they are in the league of the CWIV and maybe had a touch more finesse.  These will not hit the market until Q3 of this year per KLH's owner and engineer--who told me and others this at AXPONA. 

PS I own CWIVs

Volti Razz (as someone stated above) is a great recommendation too.  I adore Volta's sound in all of their offerings--ever.  Great loudspeakers. 

I have the following:

ATC SCM150 PSL

ATC SCM20 PSL

highly recommended.

@palutena 

I am very familiar with the Klipsch Hersey and they really benefit from a subwoofer or two.  Look around for a used SVS SB2000 Pro or if you want more umph, the SVS PB2000 Pro. The software is good and allows you plenty of adjustments so it can blend in with your existing system.

All the best.

IMHO a strategy to consider...

Ideally you want a speaker that can capture as much of the frequency response as possible. The greater the frequency response the greater the sound stage.

For your budget that might be in the 36hz - 40Khz range. I would then look for a sub to capture the lower Frequencies, which would not only provide you with the bass response you are looking for, but would greatly enchance the soundstage and flesh out the details within the midrange. 

Once you have identified speakers within the appropriate range, listen to them to find the brand that meets your personal taste. 

good luck

Goldenear…..end of search…

PL owner here. I run KT150s into NSMT model 75s. No bass issues and plenty of transparency. Good luck

If you still own the H3s, I would damp the mid horn, tweeter horn, and the woofer basket, with Dynamat, and use the factory enclosures. I would buy a Class A, ss amp ( I can recommend a few if you go in this direction ), and if you like tubes, use a tube preamp, to give you some of that warmth and color. Some of what you describe, cannot be done with tubes, ime. Elevate the H3s with a good pair of stands ( no longer use the risers of the H3s ), and as mentioned above, get a pair of powered subwoofers ( sealed ), and all this can be done below your budget. I will likely get some slack from folks here, but play a fast and articulate bassist, and listen to the attack, and sustain, of the notes. This is not tube amp territory, I am sorry to say. Any questions, you can email me. My best, always. MrD.

@mrdecibel thanks for your suggestions! I have damped all the areas you have mentioned with something similar to dynamat as I could not find dynamat at the time. I can not use the factory enclosures, the enclosures I built are better in every way. the factory enclosures make the speaker unlistenable to my ears, huge resonances around 2-400hz, anemic bass. I built ported cabinets about the same size as a forte (curved unibody design with bracing, 1 inch thick) and everything I was looking to improve, improved, just not enough unfortunately. they have served me well for about 2 years, and I will always keep them at least in a home theatre set up. 

@curiousjim thanks for your reply, I currently have 2 PB 1000 pro's in stereo, I have the phase inverted on both, as without this setting I struggle to hear them. currently they are at -10 each on the power level, with the subs I am totally satisfied with the everything below 100hz down to about 30-35ish. I have them crossed rather high (80hz at a 6db/octave rolloff) without this, the range that im dissatisfied with (100-400) sounds even thinner and almost not existent.

very happy with the subs and their app, they don't sound boomy or slow, no complaints at all, they are however the biggest I can fit in my space, although I don't imagine I would need bigger.  

@curiousjim Maybe I should mention I have the left one on the left side of the left speaker, and the right one on the right side of the right speaker, both about 5 inches next to their respective speakers 

Depends based on your musical taste I would listen to Martin Logan Montis (one of the best they ever made better then the Summit 🤠definitely only drive with modern tubes though💯

and Harbeth HL5 plus (amazing)perhaps with a REL SUB but if you can stack up more $ then hold out and get a pair of Harbeth 40.2’s those are last stop 🛑 speakers and are very forgiving of electronics and can then upgrade that part as you go😎enjoy !

..just as suggestion....find a Vandersteen dealer....they have speakers at many price points.

Another vote for the Volti Razz. I have never been this happy or this enamored, (makes some of my friends and family a bit concerned).

I’ll add a vote for the Ref 3a de Capo (currently listening to Bill Evans on them).

These are I believe the 6th set of speakers I’ve tried in this room since I converted it from my son’s bedroom. I’m done speaker shopping.

MA352, Feickert Volare w/Kuzma arm, Hana ML, and recently acquired SoundAnchors stands. 

The only time I heard the Reference brand. It was a few months ago when demoing some other speakers from a local seller. He had as a main speaker the Reflector I believe it was. The 12k version of the De cappo kinda ?? I will say it was DAMN impressive being pushed from some big pass amps. 

I'm really surprised at the results you got from the Pathos logos mk2, it was the one integrated I heard to make the mids from my persona 7f sound natural? Goes to show how important component matching is. You built larger cabinets for your speakers...damn. I can't top that.