Are REL the most Musical Subs?

I currently use 6 JL Audio Fathom 110’s, 3 stacked on each side next to my YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2’s in a two channel setup.  No boom, just a natural clean bass that complements the speakers in my living space.

In a word: "YES" - the REL is the King of the Hill when it comes to integrating a sub into your audio system. I like the Speakon connection to my amp's speaker taps, and I've always found that the REL "sub bass" unit brought a wonderful balance across the frequencies, while also adding some transparency and openness to the overall sound. 

Let me put a word in for the much more affordable Hsu subs.  In my opinion they are musical and very economically priced.  I use a pair in my video system but have also listened to them in the main audio system.

https://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-tn1

I replaced a pair with a single RSL 12S, and I could not be happier. My room seems to embrace the change and works coherently with my speakers, using the hi level connection. To each his/her own.

All REL are -6dB@ their lowest frequency and were termed  "SUB-BASS SYSTEMS" by the initialed developer manufacturer Richard Edmund Lord on his Operating Instructions.

Regardless of what their product is called today simply matching the REL volume level to your main speakers is not subwoofer low frequency integration. Their dramatic -6dB roll off at their claimed low frequency prevents them from exciting standing wave modes and allows them to be located most anywhere in the room. This locating convenience comes at the cost of discreetly amplifying and adjusting that delicate sub sonic frequency foundation by a few dB that so many recordings poses and you're missing. 

Like most things in this hobby, if you've never heard the potential there's a good chance you'll be satisfied by using a sub-bass speaker simply doubling your main speakers limited low frequency.

"schlepping the sub over the basement testing placement spots,but with advances in DSP I’m now hoping to place the sub next to the rack"

I'm going to assum your potent Paradigm subwoofer was improperly positioned and adjusted resulting in never experiencing the potential of this -3dB subwoofer. Had it been, you would have returned the REL the first day.

With the sub temporarily located at the listening position a low bass cadence is played through both the speakers and the subwoofer. You simply walk around the room making note of the standing wave modes (usually along the side walls) where the low frequency cadence tones sound their best.

DSP is not a panacea to ameliorate the improper but convenient subwoofer location.

Its an amazing thing to watch while the low frequency cadence is being played through the speakers and the listening positioned subwoofer to see the BINGO! on the face of a novice when they hear the standing waves bass mode in THEIR room for the first time.

THIS is the first step towards subwoofer musicality. Sub-Bass Speakers need not apply. They just don't go low...so, no.

The dichotomy pointed to with regard to music vs. home theater oriented/labeled subs isn't one to follow with necessity, but rather one that rests with either camp and their potentially self-inflicted limitations. Some if not many of the so-called music oriented subs simply lack the capacity first and foremost to properly handle the demanding low frequency material found in a range of movies on Blu-ray/4K UHD's, while also being restricted into the infrasonic territory. Conversely some Home Theater co-labeled subs may be hellbent on squeezing that last ounce of extension out of a small size factor (albeit typically with larger driver diameter), with all that entails and which may lead them to integrate more poorly with main speakers.

It seems to me though that when overall sub size and driver diameter exceeds that of the more "hifi"-oriented or -accepted sub variants/brands they're automatically relegated into the Home Theater segment (and the associations that follow), which is really a load of B.S. Look at REL: they're small and there seems to be a consensus about their integrating very well with main speakers, hence their popularity in audiophilia. Take then, say, JTR and one of their single or dual 18"-loaded subs of more prodigious size, and mostly there wouldn't be a bloody f*ck of an audiophile who'd give them any serious notice because they're (much) larger, not least the ported variants, and oftentimes more functional looking as well, so naturally they're just about blowing off the roof of one's house, right? Wrong. 

What many still don't seem to understand is that with subs you can "have your cake and eat it too," it's just a matter of proper capacity and sufficient* extension from a design that lets size have its say. A well designed and constructed, large and efficient sub will, as always with some groundwork, be able to integrate smoothly with main speakers and accommodate music and movies alike - in both cases even more so than some puny cube of an inefficient sub (unless with a multitude of them). It's not about either/or (i.e.: music or movies), but doing it right from the outset and thereby covering both bases at once. 

* A word on "sufficient" extension. This is an area of debate, but first of all infrasonics do make a difference with movies, although for proper effect and those very low frequencies to be truly felt you need prodigious displacement and a lot of power. Some also swear by infrasonic capabilities with music reproduction and its deemed importance here, but subs tuned that low to my ears don't always sound as "alive" in the midbass region. I've found that covering down to an honest 20-25Hz area is plenty deep for most occasions, even with movies, without negative impact on the midbass area, and this way one can also maintain high efficiency without ludicrously sized sub enclosures (i.e.: 20-25 cf. per cab). 

I think that if the post had read "what is your preferred subwoofer for music?" a good number of people would have said REL.  I've watched a number of review videos and many people feel that REL is the best choice for them.  Lots of very positive reviews. I can't say that they are the best, but I can say that they perform extremely well for me and a ton of other audiophiles. 

If I can add something here, all my friends with six figure and multi six figure systems are running the JL Audio Fathom or Gotham subs.  Either in pairs or 2x pairs.  The reliability issues with the top of the line JL subs has been debunked, they are made in FL USA, I don't know of anyone who has had issues with their top subs (maybe the budget end of their line).  REL subs are made in China. The JL subs have more user control, i.e. they have a fully adjustable phase control where REL just has a 180 degree shift available which is a deal breaker.  The JL subs also have an extreme low filter which allows the the very lowest frequencies to be boosted or rolled off as the room demands.  Also, they come with a calibration mic to allow the built in DSP to make room corrections for nodes and modes while the REL does not.  The JL subs by far have the most punch for the footprint, so if space is an issue they will absolutely eat the lunch of any similar sized sub.  I have 2 JL Fathoms in my main listening room and have had no operational issues with them.  I have two SVS subs in my HT room and both of them have had to be serviced.  Good hunting and cheers.

And like REL subs, many of the Rythmik plate amps provide the ability to be connected to either a low-level source (a pre-amp) or a high-level one (a power amp).

After many months of doing similar research, I came to the conclusion that Rhythmik is the best bang for your buck sub.  Servo controlled.  Super low response into twenties or even the teens depending on room configuration.  I have two F12s in my studio and two LVX12s in my living room.  The F12s are in a 16.5 x 13 x 10 foot ceilings space.  The LVX12s are in the living room which is about 1000 Square feet as it connects to the kitchen and dining area.  

I have not felt the need to upgrade or add additional subs in either location.  They are both set to a reasonable gain and the LVX12s will shake my entire house at probably 60% of their potential output.  Also, they have sounded more "musical" than the RELs I've encountered at the local audio shop.  Which I assume has to do with their super low distortion, ability to handle sub 30 hz content with aplomb, the transient response, and the servo controlled mechanism doing it's duties to control clipping etc.

+1 for rhythmik here - they're like half or less the price of RELs for the same output and distortion from what I see on the charts... but I get that RELs have a reputation and have gorgeous enclosures

@mahler123 Hopefully, you're going somewhere fun. 🙂

I don't know what I'd pick for a subwoofer based on the varied responses in this post.  Sounds like you have time to do some more research.  Check out the various suggestions. 

Well thank you for the input.  I’m leaving town for a few weeks and will be doing something here in a month or so

@mijostyn - I fully agree with your statements on gain structure to get bass outputs at desired levels.  An outboard crossover with gain adjustments is a great piece of equipment to help with any type of subwoofer integration.

Back to the original question as to if REL (and other modern powered subs) are musical.  Back about 33 years ago, I tried to integrate subwoofers into my two-channel system.  I had the outboard crossover and separate power amp setup at my disposal.  I brought home at least 4 non powered subwoofers (all used gear that could be returned) from various local stereo shops.  I tried everything to gain "musical" low end extension and failed miserably at it.  All that was available back then was home theater type subs and all were very tubby and muddy.  Great for explosions on the Backdraft movie soundtrack but did not add anything audiophile like for music playback.  Even the salesmen back then kinda laughed at me as to what I was trying to accomplish.  Fast forward to now and I think these powered cabinets with DSP have come a long way in having the potential to add musical bass to two channel systems without the HT boom.

That said, I think many of these ~$500 - $1,000 subs have compromises due to R&D budget and material cost constraints to meet a price point.  "Fix it with DSP" is the remedy.  For many enthusiasts, that may O.K. and enjoyable.  No harm, no foul.  But, to some discerning ears, one can hear these compromises and to @mijostyn 's point, it may not be worth the effort. 

Is the money better spent on more full range speakers or increasing the budget for the upper-level offerings from these sub manufacturers...?

@jheppe815 Exactly. Which is why the manufacturers continue making second rate subwoofers, they are less expensive and less complicated. My point is that many great systems are better off without subwoofers then employing them in this way which is why subs have such a poor reputation in some circles. You should do it right or not do it at all. Theater is a different subject. One issue you are not quite there on. To get realistic bass at levels that will not hurt your ears you have to apply EQ to boost bass such that from 50 down to 20Hz are boosted 10 dB. This is not due to any woofer defect, it is due to the sensitivity of your ears and cutaneous sensation to low bass. Making subwoofers that are +0, -3 dB from 100 down to 20 Hz is not difficult. Getting them +10 dB 50 down to 20Hz requires digital EQ. Without EQ capability there is one other way to do it, turn the gain up on the subwoofer amplifiers or down on the main speakers while rolling out of the subs 10 Hz earlier, as in sub crossover point 90Hz, main speakers 100Hz. 

@ditusa I sort of think fast is sillier than musical, but who am I to say:-)     https://imgur.com/gallery/building-resonance-free-subwoofers-dOTF3cS

No there are many much better , they are a open  vented speaker with a down firing passive radiator. They will give decent bass 

JL audio Fathom much more accurate and have built in Bass Room Correction.

I’ve got REL and SVS subs.  REL integrate extremely well into 2 Channel, are easy to blend.  SVS are way better for Home Theater and as others have mentioned, bang for the buck is off the charts. They are also surprisingly good with 2 channel, as others have mentioned, the app makes it really easy to adjust, they also will hit harder, dig deeper, if you are a bass head, you’ll prefer the SVS subs.

I’ve had a pair of Rythmik and Rels for 2- channel. The mains were Voxativ — very detailed and fast. I sold the Rels. Rythmiks are harder to integrate,

"Musical subwoofers" is as silly as "fast bass"! see here. 

Mike

@mijostyn writes:

"You need a complete 2 way crossover and steep filters available only in the digital domain for the best performance. 

The best subwoofers are passive, crossovers and amplifiers are outboard."

I have employed this type of thinking in my main system and really enjoy the efforts of going this route.  I have custom built cabinets for my low frequency (subwoofer) drivers, an external electronic (digital) crossover, separate power amps for subs and the mid/hi (main) speakers, etc.  Removing low frequency information from your main speakers reaps rewards.  The low/mid drivers in your main cabinets really "clean up" by not having to reproduce the fundamentals of kick drum, bass guitar, low synth notes, and low pitches of acoustic instruments, etc. that are found below the crossover point chosen to divide the subs and main mid/high cabinets.

A huge issue is that most people don't really wish to go through the thought processes and expense of getting all this gear together.  There are a fair number of people, if not most, I suspect, that just want "plug and play" and don't want to deal with the added external crossover, subwoofer amplifier, correctly choosing and designing a passive cabinet with your chosen cabinet maker, choosing the right sub driver, etc.  Essentially, it's a pain in the tail end to get it all right.  Hence the popularity of products from REL, SVS, etc.

It's only my opinion (and yours may / probably will be different) that a lot (but not all) of these mass market, more affordable powered subs with DSP are 'colored' to my ear if a lot of eq is used in the pre-programmed DSP section of the sub.  Most likely done in order to get extended low frequency response that the box/driver design process could not accomplish naturally.

I owned a pair of SVS SB16-Ultra (recently sold).  I now own 2 pairs of Rythmik F8 8' servo subs. 

I am / will use them for 2 channel stereo with my Wilson Audio Duette... and other speakers as well - mostly GR-Research, including Open Baffle MTM speakers. 

The Rythmik F8 completely outclasses the SVS SB16-Ultra subs.  The F8 are faster, more musical, detailed... just better.  They are in a very large room, but still play plenty deep.  I bought 4 of them because I knew 1) they would be good, 2) can be setup as an array, and 3) I can even use the drivers for custom floorstanding setups. 

Rythmik is definitely not "Mid-Fi".  It is top shelf performance.  They aren't fancy, but they absolutely deliver the goods.   

I don’t know if multiple subs would really make a difference?

Yes it makes a difference, as multiple responses have pointed out. The reason is the way bass notes interact with a room.

Bass notes (say 20-60 Hz) have wavelengths in the range of 19 to 56 feet depending on the frequency. As bass notes bounce between surfaces of the room, they reinforce or cancel with the reflections, causing something called room modes, where certain frequencies have peaks and valleys at certain locations in the room.

When you use more than one subwoofer, they are in different positions and each one creates a different room mode pattern. Blended together, they produce a more even bass response in the room. Two smaller subwoofers are capable of creating higher quality bass than a larger more powerful single subwoofer.

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 HSU ULS-15 subs are musical for sure. Sealed 15"  

You should also consider the KC92’s from KEF. One additional beauty to these is that they can be stackable as well. They sound amazing and extremely musical.

I agree with the above recommendation of adding a second sub to your two channel system.  When I had only one large sub there seem to be areas in the room where the bass was louder or softer with an occasion boom node thrown in.  Adding a second sub (same model) made all that go away.  I too listen to classical music.  With two subs the bass field was more natural and realistic sounding.

Good for you @phusis. Subwoofers should not be musical. They are to be felt more than heard. 

Rel, SVS, Rhythmik and even JL Audio are MidFi subwoofers. Aside from inexpensive enclosure construction they are expected to operate with a low pass filter only which prevents the system they are attached to from performing at its best. You need a complete 2 way crossover and steep filters available only in the digital domain for the best performance. 

The best subwoofers are passive, crossovers and amplifiers are outboard. They have balanced force design and enclosures that are made in shapes that are inherently rigid, out of materials that are self damping. A good subwoofer should be able to pound the crap out of you without any resonance. You should be able to turn the volume up to 105 dB, put your hand on the enclosure and feel absolutely no vibration or shaking as if it were disconnected. 

In my experience, the biggest difference between a REL sub and some others it they input from your speaker outputs, so the match your system better.

As far as placement, I still am using only one and it’s about seven feet behind me.  When I’m in my listening position, it’s perfect. I believe I have it set at 50hz with a 12° roll in.

I replaced my S/510s with Rythmik F12 Gs and couldn’t be happier. They are every bit as fast and musical as the Rels and dig much deeper. 

I'm using two SVS SB2000 Pros and couldn't be happier. Others suggest RELs are more musical, and they may be. However, I've been listening to high and higher-end audio for 50-some years, am a musician (bass player), and am critical as can be when it comes to sound reproduction in the lower regions. From my perspective and from what my ears tell me I'd be hard-pressed to complain about anything I'm getting with the SVS subs. There is edge, texture, definition and color to very deep bass, sometimes nearly shockingly so. Besides the SQ of those subs, three other big pluses suggest a hard look at SVS: Cost, the SVS app, and their customer service. Cost: huge bang for the buck! The app: Worth the price of admission IMO. I had my first SB 2000 absolutely seamlessly integrated within probably no more than 30 minutes, and I never left my chair. Priceless! And SVS customer service: I can't say enough other than it's superb. Besides several conversations over time with staff members that were always friendly and helpful, in the end I bought my second sub used from a private party, and it was perfect except for a small blem on the grill. I called SVS to see if I might purchase one, but they insisted on sending me one gratis. Can't beat that. 

Rel's are unique in that they are meant to be used with the speaker outs on amps, this is the essence of why they integrate so well, the amp determines it's voicing to some extent.

As far as extension, Rel has several different lines, the No. 31, 32 will match any sub in extension.

You can also further tune the Rels with different high level cables, the stock cables certainly not best you can do.

There is no boom in a REL sub because most of the RELs don’t go down far enough to create one. I always think of REL subs as woofers but not subwoofers.

Saying this, I have owned many different subs, including 2 rel S812s, which I sold to buy two rhythmik g22’s. At least in my experience and in my room the integration of the subs was much easier and they now extend into the lower frequencies as they should.

It was a very expensive lesson with REL, and I won’t go back to the hype.

Don’t get me wrong, the S812 was a good speaker, but only a good speaker, and value for the money simply wasn’t there whatsoever. And because of this I understand why people are promoting SVS as well for bang for the buck.

I have had subs from many of the major brands through the years. For HT I would agree with the comments that there is a broad range of products that offer great performance. Many of these I would consider to be a better value than REL. For 2 channel, however, I have not found a product that integrates as seamlessly as REL. I recently upgraded from pair of 212SE’s to the REL 31’s and was really surprised at the level of improvement. After properly tuning the 31’s absolutely disappear to a level I have never experienced before. For reference they are paired with Focal Scala Evos’s and Luxman/Esoteric gear.

In 2 channel music listening, subs should just be an extension of main speakers. They extend lower frequencies and add bass dynamic punch. Find a sub that sounds close to the mains. Klipsch subs are boomy. I think sealed in the music listening, or 2 channel. Home theater subs are meant for different reasons. Loud booms, rumblings, crashes, etc.. I would think bigger and ported subs. These are generalizations. I like Rythmik subs. SVS are good. HSU subs. Many brands. Like main speakers, you have to listen and find your sound preferences. And 2 are considerably better. Especially for troubled rooms. Definitely do a sub crawl test, then do a speaker crawl
I mentioned Rythmik subs because they are servo controlled, and would work for both 2 channel music listening, and great for home theater. They hit hard and go low. The sealed Rythmik subs blend beautifully with 2 channel listening. 

Dual Rythmick F-12s owner here. Flawless integration. Soix is 100% correct, two subs is a must in stereo application. Placement is also paramount. They should be on different walls at different location. I have one a third down along the left wall, the other near the front of the right wall. Placing them by the speakers for a stereo effect is fruitless. All that did in my house of stereo is causing major booming along the rear wall. Finding the right setup is a lengthy process but necessary. Nothing is easy in the pursuit of the best sound. Good luck to you.

The key is to get a pair! 

Although I can’t vouch for REL, I do have an SVS sub and feel they are not only a great subwoofer, but are an excellent value.

At it’s $3K cap pricepoint, the  ATC C1 Sub Mk2 bested all comers in my system.

Highly recommended.

I have recently bought a new sub from Arendal, their 1723 1S. They are a Norwegian direct to consumer manufacturer with distribution in Chicago (I believe) in the USA. They offer a range of both speakers and subwoofers that all come highly recommended by their customers, plus there are some very good online reviews. What I especially like is that they are designed to be corner (speaker ) facing in, plus they offer an excellent app for both Apple and Android that allows easy fine tuning and really straightforward integration. They also offer RCA and XLR inputs, plus a 10 years warranty and 60-day auditioning period, and free pre-purchase advice. I use my Arendal sub with my Sonus Faber VIII’s in a 2 channel HiFi setup. The sub is great and very musical. My only comment is they are about to release a brand new range very soon. So I’d speak to them about that timing, even though they offer an upgrade path to recent purchasers. I also looked at REL, SVS and Rythmik but both REL and Rythmik rely on speaker output for integration, which is not as flexible from a room correction perspective as that provided by Arendal and SBS. Hope that helps.

Velodyne.

I never hear earthquake mentioned anymore. Phusis, what a fantastic explanation. 

I've acquired a few used RELs over the years (costing from 200 to 300 bucks each) using one in my stereo TV rig and two in the hifi heap and they all work as designed. If one dies they were so inexpensive I'd replace it immediately with another REL as I like the "high level" Speakon connection from the amp business. I make my own REL cables with very nice speaker wire. Multiple subs make a huge difference really and no DSP is allowed! I turn the RELs up or down a little sometimes, or use a Schiit Loki Max to help out if needed (rarely, but man...what a brilliant device). 

I utilize Two SVS SB4000’s and drive them with very little signal.  Combined with my old 1978 LaScala's I would say that they are quite musical and not bloated in any way shape or form.  REL’s sound great but for me i chose a different path and couldn’t be happier.  These SB-4000’s are sourced from a Primaluna EVO300 Integrated with KT88’s driving the mains.

Not familiar with the sound of REL subs. However, I have an ongoing love affair with my pair of Vandersteen 2Wq subs with M5HP crossovers. They are out of production, replaced by a newer model, but they do pop up used from time to time. They blend seamlessly and easily with any speaker that goes down to 40Hz. Adjustable Q, and unlike REL, your main speakers see a roll off below 40Hz. I feel that this is a big plus over the REL. I like my Vandys so much that I would never consider a speaker that didn’t work with them.

There are more subs than REL which are musical. It’s kind of a silly question. SVS would be last on my list.

@phusis +10

I have two REL S/510 and a larger 12 inch ported SVS.  For movies, the SVS will shake the house, but I would never consider it for music.  

Are the REL the best bang for the buck?  (I paid $4500 new for the pair).  Possibly not, but they perform well and blend perfectly with my mains. 

Speaking of a sub as "musical" in and by itself is somewhat misleading, and yet it’s not entirely without merit in a system context. Before getting to that however it’s primarily about the implementation of subs, as proper integration with both acoustics and the mains as an outset is paramount.

With that "out of the way" - be that either via a DBA-approach, the involvement of Digital Room Correction, dual subs, symmetrical to mains-placement or asymmetrical, high-passing the mains or not, etc. - I’d say the differences between sub brands as mostly sealed designs is the far lesser factor here, with the varying aspect, apart from the all-important implementation/integration, being more about total capacity (i.e.: displacement/cone area), extension and design. More displacement means less cone movement = lower distortion, whereas more extension from a similar sized sealed package means (even) lower efficiency, which in turn typically implies higher moving mass and the need for more power and power handling. Design choice is important as well as some of them will offer much higher efficiency, albeit at the cost of larger size (Hofmann’s Iron Law).

The aspect about lower extension from similar sized sealed package is not without sonic consequences, I find; those low eff. (i.e.: below 85dB’s) high moving mass, very high power handling and high excursion woofers, even with huge magnets and a ton of power, have a tendency not to mesh that well with the main speakers sounding often too "solid" somehow and with a notable overhang. That is to say: they can sound disjointed and call attention to themselves, less so when being properly implemented overall.

Looking at REL subs they usually don’t extend that super low, certainly not into infrasonic territory, and that tells me they’re using relatively low moving mass woofers which, all things being more or less equal implementation-wise, tend to blend better with the mains - certainly in the more limited context of sealed subs. So, more "musical" with main speakers augmented by subs is aided by proper implementation and integration with the mains/acoustics, in addition to being considerate about what you’re trying to squeeze out of a smaller sized typically sealed sub package.

If you’re really into making a musical sounding combo of mains + subs, ultimately, treat it as a single speaker system per channel and go with a fully outboard active approach (i.e.: mains + subs), high-pass the mains, use a separate quality DSP unit, use identical quality amps top to bottom (potentially power differentiated, but of similar topology/design) and, finally, let physics have their say with the subs themselves; if you want infrasonic territory reproduction, then go the distance and be prepared for prodigious displacement and overall size + a boatload of power. If you can’t accommodate this, forget about infrasonics.

In any case use 2 subs (or more), preferably (to my mind) placed symmetrically to the mains, and use subs with the biggest diameter woofers (or, overall effective air radiation area with horn-loaded variants) you can afford/will. Anything below 12" with direct radiating designs in pairs or more simply won’t do, and the higher efficiency the better.

It’s about physics, design, proper construction and implementation/integration, folks, not the damn brands. For this context and the wishes of the OP nonetheless I’d open up the field of brands and consider them in the light of the above.

@soix +1 SVS includes free shipping and a 45 day return option!

I don’t know, I just perused the SVS site and the prices seem about the same as REL?  Maybe I’m missing something…

The SB1000 Pro is $599 and goes to 20Hz at -3dB.  The HT/1510 is $1699 and is -6dB at 20Hz, or you could go with the S/510 with similar extension for $2899.  You could get two SB1000 Pros for $550 less than one HT/1510 or one for $1100 less, so that’s where I was coming from with a value proposition.