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Are REL the most Musical Subs?

Forgive me if I have created a redundant thread.  I don’t usually post in the Speakers area.

  I have a Paradigm sub in my basement HT that has apparently given up the ghost after about 20 years.  I’m not a huge bass listener.  We used to use the area for movies but lately a different room of the home has taken that over.  I listen to classical music and the system gets used primarily for SACD and Blu Ray.  No desire for multiple subs.  The front speakers are full range, setup is 5.1

  I added a REL sub to my 2 channel system a few years ago, an REL, and have been delighted with the results.  It doesn’t boom at me.  What it does do is add the low level percussion effects that composers such as Mahler, Shostakovich , and modernist composers add to reinforce bass lines.  I never realized, for example, how many gentle tympani and gong effects are in Shostakovich Babi Yar symphony.

The REL integrates all of this naturally without calling attention to itself.  The Paradigm in the basement never did this but it was an older design and more budget friendly.

  So I am inclined to replace the Paradigm with another REL in the basement but was wondering what the current thinking is with subs.  I haven’t paid much attention lately and the stuff that I have pulled discusses multiple subs, Atmos, etc, and doesn’t seem to address my needs.

  Placement will be different as well.  The current sub is placed between the front speakers, and the gear rack is on the other side of the room.  20 years ago I had the energy to bury the cables next to a baseboard heat along the all, after schlepping the sub over the basement testing placement spots,but with advances in DSP I’m now hoping to place the sub next to the rack

mahler123

Showing 2 responses by jheppe815

jheppe815
67 posts
 

@mijostyn writes:

"You need a complete 2 way crossover and steep filters available only in the digital domain for the best performance. 

The best subwoofers are passive, crossovers and amplifiers are outboard."

 

I have employed this type of thinking in my main system and really enjoy the efforts of going this route.  I have custom built cabinets for my low frequency (subwoofer) drivers, an external electronic (digital) crossover, separate power amps for subs and the mid/hi (main) speakers, etc.  Removing low frequency information from your main speakers reaps rewards.  The low/mid drivers in your main cabinets really "clean up" by not having to reproduce the fundamentals of kick drum, bass guitar, low synth notes, and low pitches of acoustic instruments, etc. that are found below the crossover point chosen to divide the subs and main mid/high cabinets.

A huge issue is that most people don't really wish to go through the thought processes and expense of getting all this gear together.  There are a fair number of people, if not most, I suspect, that just want "plug and play" and don't want to deal with the added external crossover, subwoofer amplifier, correctly choosing and designing a passive cabinet with your chosen cabinet maker, choosing the right sub driver, etc.  Essentially, it's a pain in the tail end to get it all right.  Hence the popularity of products from REL, SVS, etc.

It's only my opinion (and yours may / probably will be different) that a lot (but not all) of these mass market, more affordable powered subs with DSP are 'colored' to my ear if a lot of eq is used in the pre-programmed DSP section of the sub.  Most likely done in order to get extended low frequency response that the box/driver design process could not accomplish naturally.

jheppe815
67 posts
 

@mijostyn - I fully agree with your statements on gain structure to get bass outputs at desired levels.  An outboard crossover with gain adjustments is a great piece of equipment to help with any type of subwoofer integration.

Back to the original question as to if REL (and other modern powered subs) are musical.  Back about 33 years ago, I tried to integrate subwoofers into my two-channel system.  I had the outboard crossover and separate power amp setup at my disposal.  I brought home at least 4 non powered subwoofers (all used gear that could be returned) from various local stereo shops.  I tried everything to gain "musical" low end extension and failed miserably at it.  All that was available back then was home theater type subs and all were very tubby and muddy.  Great for explosions on the Backdraft movie soundtrack but did not add anything audiophile like for music playback.  Even the salesmen back then kinda laughed at me as to what I was trying to accomplish.  Fast forward to now and I think these powered cabinets with DSP have come a long way in having the potential to add musical bass to two channel systems without the HT boom.

That said, I think many of these ~$500 - $1,000 subs have compromises due to R&D budget and material cost constraints to meet a price point.  "Fix it with DSP" is the remedy.  For many enthusiasts, that may O.K. and enjoyable.  No harm, no foul.  But, to some discerning ears, one can hear these compromises and to @mijostyn 's point, it may not be worth the effort. 

Is the money better spent on more full range speakers or increasing the budget for the upper-level offerings from these sub manufacturers...?

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