Are REL the most Musical Subs?


Forgive me if I have created a redundant thread.  I don’t usually post in the Speakers area.

  I have a Paradigm sub in my basement HT that has apparently given up the ghost after about 20 years.  I’m not a huge bass listener.  We used to use the area for movies but lately a different room of the home has taken that over.  I listen to classical music and the system gets used primarily for SACD and Blu Ray.  No desire for multiple subs.  The front speakers are full range, setup is 5.1

  I added a REL sub to my 2 channel system a few years ago, an REL, and have been delighted with the results.  It doesn’t boom at me.  What it does do is add the low level percussion effects that composers such as Mahler, Shostakovich , and modernist composers add to reinforce bass lines.  I never realized, for example, how many gentle tympani and gong effects are in Shostakovich Babi Yar symphony.

The REL integrates all of this naturally without calling attention to itself.  The Paradigm in the basement never did this but it was an older design and more budget friendly.

  So I am inclined to replace the Paradigm with another REL in the basement but was wondering what the current thinking is with subs.  I haven’t paid much attention lately and the stuff that I have pulled discusses multiple subs, Atmos, etc, and doesn’t seem to address my needs.

  Placement will be different as well.  The current sub is placed between the front speakers, and the gear rack is on the other side of the room.  20 years ago I had the energy to bury the cables next to a baseboard heat along the all, after schlepping the sub over the basement testing placement spots,but with advances in DSP I’m now hoping to place the sub next to the rack

mahler123

Showing 3 responses by mijostyn

@seb_audio Sealed subwoofers rule, but the concept of speed is a fallacy when it comes to subwoofers. Smaller drivers have to move farther to displace the same volume as a larger sub driver. As the excursion distance increases the tension on the suspension increases. The suspension becomes non-linear until it can not move any farther. As the nonlinearity increases distortion increases. Suspensions in general are only linear in the first 25% of X Max best case. Larger drivers produce less distortion. You can compensate for small drivers by using them in multiples. 

@bdp24 I hate to tell you this but all those designs have to compensate for serious flaws which can be avoided by design. They are ....unique. As an example, a large subwoofer driver that is operating within 25% of it's X max does not need a servo mechanism. It's distortion is already very low. Servos are a crutch for small drivers operating outside of their parameters. Also this does nothing to compensate for room issues. A sealed subwoofer does not need any dipole correction circuit. 95% of the problems encountered with subwoofers come from the enclosure and inappropriate integration schemes.  What subwoofers need are large and multiple drivers, unflappable sealed enclosures, a lot of power and digital equalization to get the proper balance in a residential situation. 

The best teacher is experience. I started using subwoofers in 1978 when I purchased two RH Labs units, a Dahlquist LP 1 crossover and two Kenwood LO 7M amplifiers. Selling that system was a big mistake. After that I had a set of early Velodyne subs which where pretty weak and eventually self destructed. By then I had a workshop and started making them myself. I also listened to every subwoofer I could find on display. Ported subs are for theater use only. Good subs can be used for both theater and HiFi. I tried open baffle subs given I always use Dipole ESLs or Ribbons. The response in room was impossibly lumpy. This misstep was followed by three sealed designs, the last being the most accurate I have ever heard up to about 100 dB. Going louder without distortion would require more or bigger drivers and I have not got room for either. The sad problem is that making enclosures like this are not economically feasible for manufacturers. The price would severely limit the market. I published the design so that anyone interested can make their own or perhaps have them made. Any good cabinet/furnisher maker could do it. The drivers cost $600 per enclosure and the enclosures somewhere between $10 and $20K each!  Can the same performance be accomplished with much less expensive construction? I'll leave that for someone else to figure out. 

@bgross You bet. It is that feeling that counts. 

@jheppe815 Exactly. Which is why the manufacturers continue making second rate subwoofers, they are less expensive and less complicated. My point is that many great systems are better off without subwoofers then employing them in this way which is why subs have such a poor reputation in some circles. You should do it right or not do it at all. Theater is a different subject. One issue you are not quite there on. To get realistic bass at levels that will not hurt your ears you have to apply EQ to boost bass such that from 50 down to 20Hz are boosted 10 dB. This is not due to any woofer defect, it is due to the sensitivity of your ears and cutaneous sensation to low bass. Making subwoofers that are +0, -3 dB from 100 down to 20 Hz is not difficult. Getting them +10 dB 50 down to 20Hz requires digital EQ. Without EQ capability there is one other way to do it, turn the gain up on the subwoofer amplifiers or down on the main speakers while rolling out of the subs 10 Hz earlier, as in sub crossover point 90Hz, main speakers 100Hz. 

@ditusa I sort of think fast is sillier than musical, but who am I to say:-)     https://imgur.com/gallery/building-resonance-free-subwoofers-dOTF3cS

Good for you @phusis. Subwoofers should not be musical. They are to be felt more than heard. 

Rel, SVS, Rhythmik and even JL Audio are MidFi subwoofers. Aside from inexpensive enclosure construction they are expected to operate with a low pass filter only which prevents the system they are attached to from performing at its best. You need a complete 2 way crossover and steep filters available only in the digital domain for the best performance. 

The best subwoofers are passive, crossovers and amplifiers are outboard. They have balanced force design and enclosures that are made in shapes that are inherently rigid, out of materials that are self damping. A good subwoofer should be able to pound the crap out of you without any resonance. You should be able to turn the volume up to 105 dB, put your hand on the enclosure and feel absolutely no vibration or shaking as if it were disconnected.