I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
This whole saga is about threatening to sue some 'little guy' with a YouTube channel. I doubt most peope are focused on issues surrounding speaker measurements. The thread on ASR stalled out a while back and would've been just another thread on ASR had the little guy on YouTube not been threatened.
Bullying tactics by a manufactuer against a reviewer is nothing new, but this seems to have resonated with the community because of the sheer level of arrogance and disrespect involved on the part of EA. His attempt at damage control evident in his two YouTube videos just added more fuel to the fire.
All that said I think people should move on. It's been a train wreck but it's time to let it go. Life has its way of meting out justice, whether through karma or just the average Joe voting with his feet.
PS - I don't mean 'little guy' disrespectfully towards Erin.
Wow. Interesting thread. Thank you, @amir_asr for clearly explaining things from your point of view. I visit ASR fairly often and I appreciate the work you do.
I'm in a sort of no-man's land regarding this hobby. I'm a scientist by training and I believe in testing methodology that removes bias to the greatest possible extent. I eat a handful of prescription drugs every day and I'm grateful that they were all evaluated using a double-blind process. I have two neighbors/friends who didn't accept the science on Covid vaccinations and they are dead now from Covid.
I have been able to internalize quite a bit of cognitive dissonance in this hobby. I can't hear the difference between interconnects and power cords but I sure can hear the difference between amplifiers (my speakers are quite difficult to drive). I have three DACs and I suspect I could not tell them apart in a blind test but that didn't stop me from spending a lot of money on them, at least one in particular.
When I compare two pieces of gear, I don't have the capability to do an A/B/X test but I always use a control. For example, when I listen to a new set of interconnects I start by comparing two DACs in my system and I evaluate the differences, if any, using the same brand of cables, typically Blue Jeans. Then I change the interconnects in one DAC and listen again. To be thorough, I leave the new cables in place for a few months so that I can go back again and again to see if I can hear a difference (hey, you never know if maybe the wires had to break in before they bloomed). I have utterly failed to hear the differences between interconnects, even silver ones, using this method. BTW, the DACs sound very similar too.
I am prepared to spend significant funds on a component on the basis of pride of ownership even if I doubt it will sound significantly better than something cheaper. But ASR provides excellent data that helps me make a decision. I look at Amir's work as basically answering the question, "Is this product well engineered?" I'm more likely to buy a product that is designed and measures well than one with obvious shortcomings.
My feeling is that if people hear dramatic differences that can't be substantiated through scientific means then more power to them. It's their money and they should spend it on things that make them happy. In my case I know that I am susceptable to bias so I try to control it the best I can. IMO ASR provides a valuable perspective to this hobby.
A fine point that. I watched the moon landing in 1968. Not first hand but as close as most. Sophistry exists but overflow hospital tents and portable morgues are hard to deny. As to Smallpox versus Covid glad the vaccine came out when it did. Future epidemics could/may/will be existential threats due recent irresponsible balderdash.
1. Good objective reviews are important. That includes measurements decent REPRODUCIBLE measurements. As a trained scientist, that is what writing papers is all about, in professional journals. If one cannot reproduce or get similar results doing measurements - then the person doing the measurements are an issue, possibly. But they should be reproducible with the same equipment.
2. Listening from the buyer’s perspective. I would NEVER buy a speaker without buying them. The way a speaker sounds, to the listener, if very subjective.
Hence, I prefer both objective and subjective - one is not more important than the other.
ASR is part of the larger community and like all the bits not without imperfections of approach, synthesis and conclusion.
Until very recently, i spent significant time in the Quantum computing world…. Science is not static… Sad when minds are lost thinking it is. The Ear - Brain is not super well understood… while i own and enjoy speakers built and hand tuned by a manufacturer ( since 1977 ) who DO have an anechoic chamber, and do incorporate measurements rigorously into both developm, production and quality control, I still listen….. so so they…..
A book many of you might find of interest… that pesky ear / brain…thing again… is ; This Is What it Sounds Like by Ogi Ogas and Susan Rogers…. read it… and listen to it… but that might activate…. different parts of the brain…
Also note the ability to observe brain activity / intensity is relatively new science…. which isn’t…. static….
I dont deny most if not all of the Covid numbers. In fact I really havent paid much attention to Covid from the outset. Got the shot/booster and then watched tribalism and politicization occur.
The real problem with this entire fiasco was the reaction of the government to a population that demands immediate, definitive answers and juvenile reassurances. If you dont know admit it. I would even go so far as to say you should divulge just how much you dont know.
I'm in a sort of no-man's land regarding this hobby. I'm a scientist by training and I believe in testing methodology that removes bias to the greatest possible extent.
I have been able to internalize quite a bit of cognitive dissonance in this hobby. I can't hear the difference between interconnects and power cords but I sure can hear the difference between amplifiers (my speakers are quite difficult to drive).
My feeling is that if people hear dramatic differences that can't be substantiated through scientific means then more power to them. It's their money and they should spend it on things that make them happy. In my case I know that I am susceptable to bias so I try to control it the best I can. IMO ASR provides a valuable perspective to this hobby.
Well said. I agree with your views.
The one thing which gives me pause is people who spend money on gear to make themselves happy only because they have convinced themselves they can hear a difference when they don't go to the trouble you do (which is not strictly scientific but better than nothing) to control variables. It would be better if they said, "I'm doing this on a whim" than, "I'm doing this because it's better based on evidence." They have lied to themselves about what counts as evidence rather than simply owning that they're doing it just because they want to. Which is a valid rationale.
Americans dont pay attention to anything in the outside world... Covid crisis was no exception...Some think that covid was about for Biden or against Trump , I will not go further ...Big pharma has anything to do with science and it is a fact They use science they dont did science it is for PROFIT only ( mass control when it is militarily driven ) .. 😊
For the thread question, it is evident that there is no rosetta stone dictionary between measurements of speakers and a specific room translation of the speakers specs. and our own ears... ( The best solution is optimize our room only for specific speakers and use a Choueiri set of filters, then it is job done )
It is simple to know why when you had played as i did with the acoustic materials content of a room , his size , his geometry and topology , and the many devices we can introduce to improve the relation between ears/speakers/room...Room acoustics can induce change that will dwarf any gear change save extreme change in quality and extreme change in design between speakers or amplifiers...
Acoustics measurements rules audio not electrical measures of the gear which anyway in any good design must be driven and submitted to acoustics and psychoacoustics measurements at the end ...
In acoustics science there is the same debates in a way between ecological theory of hearing and non ecological theory...😊
Ecological theory is gaining success because our body play a role in hearing , the body image of sound from the sound source too, so much a revolution in acoustics is brewing ..
I posted three fundamental articles about this in the thread of bolong ; "the experience of sound is mysticism"
I stopped watching ASR when he did a video on a power cord that he never plugged in. He measured impedance and capacitance and rated the cable and said the cord was snake oil and not to waste any money on it. Again, he never listened to it, let alone plugging it in.
I love what Amir is doing with ASR. It gives me more information. I’ve learned lots of useful things there. My system is sounding better than ever, and a lot of that is thanks to solid information on ASR that allows me to make more correlations between measurements and what I perceive as good sound.
The fact that many claim to know what sounds best from years of experience with high end gear is data that is noted, not ignored. Some of those people can't explain what is going on, and don't seem to do well in blind tests. That is noted as well, and never entirely dismissed. It's one thing to note that you perceive a difference, and have a preference. It's another thing to try to explain why that difference is perceived without any substantial evidence. It's the explanation in those cases that's being rejected, not the truth of the perception.
For one ASR imo has no credibility ,there are tons of youngsters that know -0 about real time experiences ,and the way they measure.
I suspect the feeling is mutual. BTW, I am older than many of you . While I appreciate being called "youngster," I got my degree in early 1980s....
a perfect example I had mentioned for the money how good the Denafrips Terminator 2 dac was for the money ,and they are giving a comparison just how much better the $800 Topping measured , sonically the Denafrips is light years better sounding, and I ripped into them and all their childish antics . Myself have been an Audiophile-over 40 years and travel and listen to a lot-of gear ,and having-owned a audio store for a decade I have a pretty good grasp on sonics and reality .
If in all of those 40 years, you had spent just one day doing a listening test blind, you would have been so much better off from that moment on. But no, you allowed your eyes and brain to interfere. And with it, arrived at the wrong conclusion, leading to wasting money left and right on things like that Denafrips DAC.
As to having an audio store, a friend of mine (older than you) co-founded *the* high-end audio store(s) in this area. He sold his shares all of a sudden and I asked why. He said his conscious wouldn't allow him to keep selling things that he knew had no merit audibly.
I used to buy gear from their stores. They would always try to sell me cables at the end of the transaction. I would always tell them that I would take the cables if they were free. They would immediately discount the cost of the equipment by that amount and give me the cables then for nothing! That is how I have collected a full suite of Transparent Audio Cables.
That little 4 inch surplus woofer Danny is using produced the most horrible sound possible. Naturally due to its extremely small size and lack of excursion. To call that a hi-fi speaker would be a huge stretch. To call it Little Giant Killer is science fiction.
As to mono listening you better start doing that as that is the most sensitive type of speaker testing you can do. I have a video on that:
As if things like: imaging, soundstage, ambience retrieval don't exist.
If a speaker is colored, or distorts like hell, I wouldn't care about those factors. That aside, much of what you talk about is in the content and has little to do with the speaker itself. Pan an instrument to the left. Even the crappiest speaker will demonstrate that. Spatial effects are also quite obvious in mono listening.
If in all of those 40 years, you had spent just one day doing a listening test blind, you would have been so much better off from that moment on. But no, you allowed your eyes and brain to interfere. And with it, arrived at the wrong conclusion, leading to wasting money left and right on things like that Denafrips DAC.
When i bought my Tannoy dual concentric speakers, a legendary speakers, i was convinced that they were among the best and after 40 years when i sell them a higher price than the price paid i know that they were reputed good for one reason : they were good...
I know it all along with my eyes and with my brain which i allow to interfere as you said, but why did i never entered in complete satisfaction ?
Because i did not know about acoustics...
What you said about these two dac based on electrical measures of their specs characteristics is right... What you did conclude is wrong ...
A dac performance cannot be evaluated out of any system , in no room , for no ears...
The two dac must be compared in the same dedicated acoustic room with a specific system for specific ears ( ideally measured inner ears and HTRF ) the specs of the dac cannot tell the tale by itself alone blind test or not ...
I let my eyes and brain influenced me when i bought another pair of speakers but at the end they did not please me till i completely modified them ...
Your stance about ears and brain is pop psychology used ideologically to reduce any sound quality to a set of electrical measurements...( simple blind tests are enough anyway and i used them creating my room )
The measures that matter the most are acoustics parameters and psychoacoustics parameters...
Seeing the gear and reading the reviews will not improve the sound ... Acoustics measures and parameters improvements will do ... The specs of any piece of gear dont tell ALL the story at best it can be used to eliminate some purchasing choices and even this minimal use of specs will not always work...
By the way thanks for you article about the Fosi audio sk1 preamplifier i bought it after reading your review and never regret it ... i used it for my secondary headphone ...😊
I appreciate your work indeed but not your ideology...
I am pretty sure you think A.I. will replace human for the better ... i do not think so ... Enough teasings, i wanted to spell my opinion ... 😎
I think what most audiophiles don’t understand is that audio measurements are easy and not very technical compared to many other measurements in science. Audio is slow and the frequencies are long the mechanics are simple. Testing the frequency range of a component its timing or dynamic range or fidelity is really 1st grade comparatively and can be done exceptionally accurately. If the uber expensive cables made a difference to the signal it would be easily measured. There is no magic or secret knowledge you hear only the signal of the output if the signal changes you can easily measure it. ASR is right about this. ASR tested my Genelec speakers nearly the highest rating ever and those speakers "The Ones" are taking over recording studios everywhere, that is no coincidence.
IF your baseline is whatever you like coming out of a DAW… why overinvest in Genelex ?…. just think thru that BEFORE you react….
BTW… i ran with an engineering development / build / Test / Launch / operate on orbit crowd w bandwidth up to light…. don’t oversell the ease of FULLY understanding and measuring the lowly analog…
One starting point for all gear should be proper engineering. If it is badly engineered, then good sound is only an accident. Yes, we have seen the reviews in S'phile of subjective raves followed by Atkinson's baffled measurements.
ASR is a starting point for you to begin listening: I use it to establish a shortlist of gear worth auditioning. Especially since some mfg. tailor their gear to a 'house sound'.
I might add that, since COVID, I find it increasingly worrisome to sit in a confined space with a bunch of strangers and am not eager to go to shows and dealerships, hence increasing reliance on ASR and a VERY small number of reviewers whose prejudices reinforce mine.
@fstein- You know, I definitely build speakers I'm proud of from an engineering perspective, but when it comes to value... humans are not nearly as picky as you'd think.
I can think of a number of VERY successful speakers which had a number of issues I'd raise. So, who is right? Me, the measurements, the buying public?
Definitely not Amir. 😂
I'm reminded sometimes of the Top Gear episode where they were comparing a couple of sports cars on the track. The one with the loose rear end had the worst performance on the track but was the most fun to drive according to one driver. Was he "wrong?" I leave that up to the consumer.
Present thinking is that the original AR speakers were muffled/dull.
I had 3’s then 5’s (vastly underrated)
When Vilchur,Kloss and Hoffman released their epochal design, they deliberately rolled them off with the pots in mid-position because of the harsh recordings of the day. They knew exactly what they were doing, but they measured first. The most neutral response was with the pots cranked up. Of course, if your tube amp rolled off the highs....
The ’Live vs recorded’ demonstrations that they made (eg Grand Central Station) proved their point.
Glad to see Amir-ASR here. Takes some guts given how he gets bashed around in here. I like ASR and think there’s valuable info there. In addition to reviews, Amir’s general write ups on digital audio are very good. HDMI was eye opening. Thanks, Amir.
Saw Tekton Eric’s FB post this morning and his refusal to post measurements. For a long time I listened to pro monitors for my stereo and in my studio. The vendors always provided frequency plots. Very helpful for room setup and subwoofer integration. When I went to electrostatics, Quad and Sound Lab do the same. So this is nothing new.
But speakers are hard no matter what because our rooms are extensions of the speakers. And all our rooms are different. I don’t think you can judge entirely on measurements, but neither does Amir, as he stated above. Because after all, us humans like a little harmonic distortion. Oh! I mean that Warm Tube Sound. B-) 😎
Not that Amir is always right or every conclusion and argument is unimpeachable.
But..he has a hell of a lot of knowledge and experience, and many of the criticisms that from sites like this come from audiophiles who "don’t know what they don’t know." In other words, they project their own ignorance about measurements and the science of psychoacoustics on to ASR and Amir. "Measurements don’t tell us x or science hasn’t determined Y..." are often statements of personal ignorance, not actual knowledge of the engineering or science itself.
ASR emphasizes how it measures and not how it sounds, which is missing the subjective musicality in the equation. I would encourage their members to go to concerts and recitals and listen to more live music and well recorded and well interpreted music as these are important dimensions beyond test measurements. Don’t just test the car, but look out the window and enjoy the journey it takes you on.
That’s a very common mischaracterization. For one thing, that ASR just cares about measurements not how things sound. That’s ridiculous. The whole POINT of caring about the measurements has to do with how things sound! Amir is appealing to plenty of good engineering and science which correlates measurements to how things sound! So for instance once you have distortion measured at certain levels, it’s beyond our capability to detect. Likewise power and impedance measurements of speakers and amplifiers can help put in to context the possible sonic consequences of various pairings.
And of course frequency responses for speakers relate to how they sound. Look at a B&W frequency response and if you know something about correlating the measurements to sonics, you’ll have some idea of how they will sound, especially the upper frequency emphasis. Many people who say "you can’t tell a speaker’s sound from the measurements" are mostly talking about themselves. Just because they haven’t learned the correlations doesn’t mean other people haven’t and don’t find speaker measurements informative about possible sonic issues.
And Amir appeals to some well established science in terms of how certain suites of measurements predicting speaker sound quality and preference ratings - see the research done by Floyd Toole and others. So this idea that it’s "just about the measurements not how things sound" is frankly just ignorant.
Now, though I’m an ASR member I don’t think the ASR approach is the only one for enjoying the hobby or choosing gear. I personally am usually curious about how something measures but, especially with loudspeakers, I always have to listen and go with what I perceive. But on the other hand there is no reason whatsoever to disparage an educated audiophile for buying gear based on measurements. If they know what type of performance they are seeking that’s perfectly fine, and it’s clear many on ASR and elsewhere have had success with that approach too!
But i dont like their general ideology and there is one...
But insults dont replace arguments and science...
I think the same as prof here :
I always have to listen and go with what I perceive. But on the other hand there is no reason whatsoever to disparage an educated audiophile for buying gear based on measurements.
People on a budget should appreciate that ASR identifies many very cost effective products that perform well. Many are so cost effective that it makes sense to consider and compare. You might save a lot of $$$$s if that is something that matters to you. It does to me and I have found some very good values via ASR. Or if you think price always determines quality then probably not so much. You get to choose and be happy.
It’s not hard though to see where ASR reviews may represent a threat to vendors that fear their products may be undercut by others of lower cost. That’s a real possibility but one that benefits the buyer and works against some but not all “high end vendors”. Those that offer unique value or perhaps just an alternate good sound that may or may not measure well should be fine. But it’s clearly the buyers and the more cost effective product vendors that benefit. Other high end review sites that focus exclusively on “audiophile” customers help make up for that though.
People on a budget should appreciate that ASR identifies many very cost effective products that perform well.
When i decided to buy a preamplifier with tone controls for my secondary headphone K240 sextett, i read reviews about the new Fosi amplifier-pre... Then i read Amir review which was very enthusiastic...I bought it...
Not only it is good but better than we could think for a so low cost product...
Measured and confirmed good specs are not enough for me , enthusiastic users reviews for a new product unlike vintage one is not enough for me ...But put the two together and it is not hard to want to try for something under 100 bucks if you need it ...😁
And Amir wanted one for himself after his review ... Even with all his imaginary or real defects he had listen more low cost products than most users ...
Anyway i use all reviews by users and well as Amir one, the less credible one are most official reviewers 😊...
By the way this headphone amp did a better job to drive my top hybrid Akg K340 in a test than a tube amp i tried costing 20 times his price and i returned it ... I use the K340 only with my Sansui alpha though who is hard to beat... Think about how price tags could be misleading when synergy and the right amplification is needed ..
I appreciate that @amir_asr is here. He has been very patient with the attacks on him, on this forum.
Thank you.
Don't forget that both personal taste (subjective) and measurements (objective) come into play when buying equipment. People seem to forget this point.
Many in the ASR crowd as many in this forum had no idea what is psychoacoustics...
Then they quarrel over the small or larger part of the egg... Swift cannot age...
Don't forget that both personal taste (subjective) and measurements (objective) come into play when buying equipment. People seem to forget this point.
Most measurements are worthless to me. Very few measurements I would look at:
speaker sensitivity (this will tell me what kind of amp I would need to make them sing)
Does an amp double in power from 8 ohms to 4?
Is the amp class A or A/B, how many watts in class a?
It is well proven that components that have measured bad sound very good and vice versa. This goes for this guys measurements and stereophiles.
Your ears are the best instruments to use when evaluating audio components.
As for distortion, these reviewers want to see 0 distortion, but you know that speakers have quite a bit of distortion as well as tube amps and people swear tube amps sound best.
Music is art. Art has nothing to do with how good it measures. Art appreciation is a totally subjective thing. Ahhh!
But the gear that plays the music…..that’s technology. Measurements are pretty much the only way to clearly identify technology done well versus not so much. In fact the only way to clearly define a technology is to measure it. It’s all about the numbers and there is no getting around it. Good engineers tend to be very good at math!
So there is no dilemma here. No need to pick just one. Art is subjective. Technology is not. It takes two to tango but only one can lead. Take your pick!
Acoustics exist mapman...music coming from a system/room with objective acoustic parameters toward specific ears canals and specific HTRF is not only and merely a subjective matter it is an objective acoustics matter too...
Acoustics measures and parameters are not electrical specs of a piece of gear...
Acoustics is an art based science or a science applied as an art in architecture for example or in the design of Choueiri filters etc I used it in my room and i used it to modify my speakers which became stunningly better...
I can recommend you an article if you dont like book ? 😊
Music is art. Art has nothing to do with how good it measures. Art appreciation is a totally subjective thing.
I suppose I do not get the point of this thread. Once a speaker is placed and set up in a typical listening room, all bets are off, no matter what measurements were used in the design of them. Other than Roy Allison and his implemental designs with bass using rear wall placement, speakers are unpredictable in real room situations. I do not believe measurements are unimportant, but there are some great sounding pieces of gear, that measure poorly. I do respect Amir, with his testing and measuring. I am saying goodbye to this thread. My best always, MrD.
The most important measurements are acoustics measurements and parameters.
You can change the gear to accomodate a specific room , but nobody sell the house because the gear dont match the room. 😁The important set of measures are acoustics and psychoacoustics. Period. 😊
It is why so useful some Amir reviews could be their ideological tool measures obsession is useless for creating a good system /room S.Q. or at least not enough ...
"I suppose I do not get the point of this thread. Once a speaker is placed and set up in a typical listening room, all bets are off, no matter what measurements were used in the design of them."
Above transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz, speaker dominates. Yes, there are secondary such as reflections but we have a good model to represent them in measurements as well. See this standard CEA-2034 measurement in every speaker review I do:
We can even predict the response with decent accuracy in a room:
In bass domain, the room dominates almost independent of the speaker. So there, you must have a strategy for dealing with room modes, again, independent of what speaker you use.
"Is the amp class A or A/B, how many watts in class a?
It is well proven that components that have measured bad sound very good and vice versa. This goes for this guys measurements and stereophiles.
Your ears are the best instruments to use when evaluating audio components."
It doesn't matter what class an amplifier is. It is all in the implemention/engineering.
And no, it is not remotely proven that badly measuring devices sound better. At best, they sound the same if the impairments are not bad enough for listening to hear.
Your ears can be very useful in assessing fidelity but not when you involve your other senses such as eyes, and sources of bias. Even when there are provable, audible differences, these sources of bias dominate outcome of listening tests. Without controlled testing, you are just generating noise, not data.
And what if you can't listen to the device? Those of us who know the power of measurements, can easily deal with this. Those that don't, miss out on great audio gear.
I bought the Fosi sk1 headphone amplifier and preamp thanks to you ...
But i did not buy it because it was good on the measurements test...
It is a plus and a positive fact ONLY...
I bought it because you listened to it and you wanted one for your headphone which you tested with it... 😊
You were right, a bargain for the price under 100 bucks.
Thanks I used it for my secondary headphones at night for documentaries and movies...A little music ...He drive my AKG K340 hybrid better than a very well known tube amplifier costing 20 times its price. ( i know because i tried it biased by the price tag and reviews) 😁
And what if you can’t listen to the device? Those of us who know the power of measurements, can easily deal with this. Those that don’t, miss out on great audio gear.
By the way i cannot be influenced by the look of my gear i use acoustics to modify my speakers and only use relatively low cost or vintage pieces which i modified in acoustic dedicated room .
You critics can made sense only for gullible passive consumers of relatively high cost products...
Then you accusation of biases are exagerated and do not concern people using acoustics basic...
Your ears can be very useful in assessing fidelity but not when you involve your other senses such as eyes, and sources of bias.
Mind you, you can have all of these views and be just fine in ASR. We have plenty of subjectivists that way. The issue comes up is when you take on the membership and try to tell them how it is done. Naturally you get strong pushback. But that is something you are bringing onto yourself.
I suspect the primary issue many have with ASR is the condescending tone adopted by many of its senior members.
It’s quite apparent many of them are merely there to be in an echo chamber, rather than engage in any real debate. Perhaps the biggest irony is some of ASR’s vehement disciples fail to understand the basic principles of its orthodoxy, such as the ability to read graphs, or, like the author of this thread, fail to understand how the Klippel works.
Let’s be real, many, if not most members of ASR are there for self-validation—to support the notion that they can build a true high-end system on a very modest budget. And I say that as someone who places high value on quantifiable performance.
So he is an electrical engineer with a degree and is a truth-teller based on science and engineering principles and never speaks sweet lies. They are paid trolls aka influencers come here to mislead viewers with their pseudo science nonsense and brag about their certificate degrees from community colleges.
Let’s be real, many, if not most members of ASR are there for self-validation—to support the notion that they can build a true high-end system on a very modest budget.
Some on audiogon as myself think the same... Some others not be it on audiogon or ASR ...
Anybody studying basic acoustics, adressing resonance/vibrations and adressing the electrical noise level of the house/room can reach true audiophile S.Q. experience at relatively low cost...
I dont need ASR to do that. Anyway what will they think of my homemade resonators and acoustics devices , shungite+copper plate and my modifications of speakers with cheap straws and my use of homemade acoustic materials and my use of Schumann generators etc... ? I can listen them laughing at me as also many here ...😊
I am ferociously creative independent and know very well why Acoustics matter over anything else...
Glad to see Amir-ASR here. Takes some guts given how he gets bashed around in here. I like ASR and think there’s valuable info there. In addition to reviews, Amir’s general write ups on digital audio are very good. HDMI was eye opening. Thanks, Amir.
Amir's (sometimes) tone is what gets him bashed. Measurements are useful information, and when Amir delivers measurements or other explanation in a neutral tone, it's all fine.
But sometimes Amir's tone, which is echoed by a core of members at ASR, is triggering. My personal opinion is that someone that "has the podium" like Amir should work to set a better example of respect and civility than he does. Doesn't really matter how stupid the posts he responds to seem to be.
The ASR process has its place. But there are fanatics there like everywhere else and they don't recognize their own biases.
Fellas, send the Madrona Digital Revel dealer (who sits around with 1 speaker klippeling away in his garage...whoop di doo) back to his forum and get this type of information directly from the horses’ mouth. You would think he oughta be busy selling Revels, accepting donations from the herd on his forum, etc, staying in his lane. But here he is...trying to do more "outreach" n all (the deep pocket donors exist here, i suppose). Hmmm, maybe, his herd is thinning a bit, when it realizes that the crap he recommends sounds indeed like crap.
Nevertheless, the fanatical side of his herd will eventually settle on some active that looks like a flat line and sounds like a turd.
It’s about what "errors" a designer chooses to live with or not, i.e., what he feels is saleable to a larger number of ears....when these guys oughta run a business (it’s not like they’re incapable of cooking a flat line for a fanatical herd).
totally agree with you on crossover point analysis...cost tradeoffs....however, I suggest you learn more about the Klippel...you are greatly underestimating it's abilities. ;-)
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