Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

Not that Amir is always right or every conclusion and argument is unimpeachable.

But..he has a hell of a lot of knowledge and experience, and many of the criticisms that from sites like this come from audiophiles who "don’t know what they don’t know." In other words, they project their own ignorance about measurements and the science of psychoacoustics on to ASR and Amir. "Measurements don’t tell us x or science hasn’t determined Y..." are often statements of personal ignorance, not actual knowledge of the engineering or science itself.

Anyway, somewhat along those lines...

@toronto416

ASR emphasizes how it measures and not how it sounds, which is missing the subjective musicality in the equation. I would encourage their members to go to concerts and recitals and listen to more live music and well recorded and well interpreted music as these are important dimensions beyond test measurements. Don’t just test the car, but look out the window and enjoy the journey it takes you on.

That’s a very common mischaracterization. For one thing, that ASR just cares about measurements not how things sound. That’s ridiculous. The whole POINT of caring about the measurements has to do with how things sound! Amir is appealing to plenty of good engineering and science which correlates measurements to how things sound! So for instance once you have distortion measured at certain levels, it’s beyond our capability to detect. Likewise power and impedance measurements of speakers and amplifiers can help put in to context the possible sonic consequences of various pairings.

And of course frequency responses for speakers relate to how they sound. Look at a B&W frequency response and if you know something about correlating the measurements to sonics, you’ll have some idea of how they will sound, especially the upper frequency emphasis. Many people who say "you can’t tell a speaker’s sound from the measurements" are mostly talking about themselves. Just because they haven’t learned the correlations doesn’t mean other people haven’t and don’t find speaker measurements informative about possible sonic issues.

And Amir appeals to some well established science in terms of how certain suites of measurements predicting speaker sound quality and preference ratings - see the research done by Floyd Toole and others. So this idea that it’s "just about the measurements not how things sound" is frankly just ignorant.

Now, though I’m an ASR member I don’t think the ASR approach is the only one for enjoying the hobby or choosing gear. I personally am usually curious about how something measures but, especially with loudspeakers, I always have to listen and go with what I perceive. But on the other hand there is no reason whatsoever to disparage an educated audiophile for buying gear based on measurements. If they know what type of performance they are seeking that’s perfectly fine, and it’s clear many on ASR and elsewhere have had success with that approach too!

Amir has an opinion like anyone else.  He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science.  His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods.  Correct me if I am wrong, but Amir has never designed and built an audio component.  He has not demonstrated the ability to listen and review audio components nor has he been published outside of his own u-tube channel.  The most remarkable thing about Amir is that he has accomplished so much notoriety with so little.

Oh no.  A Golden Ear has spoken.  Whatever will Amir do...?  ;-)

@tonywinga 

You've made some assertions without evidence.

I like Amir's approach because he actually produces evidence.

Amir and ASR don't deserve this much attention.

I find this to be sad.

Nobody needs to agree with everything Amir has said to be able to recognize how much valuable information Amir has produced, both in explaining some of the principles in audio gear, in having provided measurements for many hundreds of products, in taking a look at all sorts of claims by audio manufacturers and seeing if they stand up to more rigorous scrutiny and measurements etc.

It's just sad to be so salty, or incurious, to dismiss Amir and ASR so easily.

Amir actually believes that all things coming out of your stereo can be measured and even subtle differences will show up in testing.

Why wouldn't that be the case?

Remember why we usually create tools, especially measuring tools?  Because of the limitations of our own senses!  That's why we build telescopes to see things we can't with our naked eye, microscopes because our vision is limited in acuity, and we have all manner of instruments that can detect differences we ourselves can not.  That goes for measuring audio gear with devices that can detect "subtle changes" in the signal that our ears can not detect.  And we know enough about human hearing to look at measurements of amps, or speakers, and note which ACTUAL sonic phenomenon our ears are sensitive to or not.

All this suggests that of course measurements are a good tool for detecting "subtle differences."

So I am done with this guy and ASR. What he does has merit but only goes so far. To me he represents a radical stance whose basic premise taints everything that follows.

How about the "radical stance" that you can hear things our most sensitive instruments can not? 

And that no matter how any test fails to demonstrate your claim, we are supposed to just accept that "If You Think You Hear It, It's True" which is a radical rejection of what we know scientifically.

@mahgister 

You miss the point.  Everything you wrote is moot unless it is the case, for any example, that we really are able to detect a sonic difference.  The most reliable method of doing this is listening tests controlling for biases.  And we have learned a lot about thresholds in human hearing.  There are measurable levels of differences and distortions that you will not detect, just as you will not detect with your senses X-rays.

@terry9 

See above.

In scientific terms you are putting the cart before the horse: assuming your sighted impressions to have delivered The Truth, and then inferring from that, well if it's not showing up in measurements then it's the measurements that are inaccurate or incomplete...rather than the possibility it is your perception that is inaccurate.

@terry9 

Agreed. I've often argued that to point out the relevance of measurements and controlled listening test is NOT to entail that audiophiles are required to do any such thing in enjoying the hobby.

I also have perceptions that I just role with in my set up, which I haven't rigorously validated.  For instance, I seem to perceive sonic differences in tube rolling with my CJ amp.  Have I double checked this rigorously with blind testing and can I demonstrate this to someone else over the internet?  Nope.  But that's ok, I'll enjoy the ride anyway.

BTW, can someone explain to me how you evaluate the sound of a product you don't even listen to?

Well, take the example of cables.  Any decent cable should, used within spec, be audibly transparent. 

Take claims about, say, an expensive USB cable like the Nordost Tyr, which Amir reviewed and measured.  The company makes all sorts of claims about the sonic enhancements you will hear over a regular USB cable.  But Amir showed in his review, with measurements, that it did not change the signal in any possibly audible way, vs a cheaper USB cable. 

So...by measurements you can tell certain sonic claims are false, and also that if you replace a cheap cable with the Nordost cable, it won't have any sonic consequences.  You can know it will SOUND the same...from the measurements.

@audition__audio

The crux of this entire thing comes down to the fact that most measurements do not tell you how a device will sound.

This is a "speak for yourself" moment ;-)

People who actually understand measurements can tell quite a bit about how a product will sound. The fact you can’t doesn’t change that.

After all, what in the world do you think audio measurements arose for in the first place? Just some utterly abstract academic project? No. Measurements and measuring equipment grew out of the need to quantify and correlate measurements to how something sounds. That’s the whole point of developing and using measurements! How else do you think audio engineering works? Guesswork? Deliverance from dreams?

How else then could it be that an amplifier with identical specifications doesnt sound exactly like another amp that measures the same?

The answer is: Your imagination.

This is what many audiophiles just seem to be utterly ignorant about: the power of bias. It isn’t just easy to imaging sonic differences that aren’t there: it’s almost guaranteed - we tend to "hear differences" when comparing things, whether they are there or not. That’s why science controls for those variables.

This is where Amir is so completely wrong. We do not know how to measure the things in the audio chain which some of our ears perceive as the most vital in reproduction.

Again, sorry for being blunt, but when you say "We" I think you mean "you."  You seem unaware of the breadth and detail science has gained about our senses and perception.  I work in film sound production, using synths, samples and tons of plug ins.  The only reason all these are possible is because of how much we know about "what causes something to sound this or that way" and have codified it technically.

Prof are you a sophist?

Are you nearsighted?  You seem to have misread my post.

For sure we can tell by measurements that certain sonic claims MAY BE  false ( not are always false as you wrote) this does not means that all audible characteristics of sounds perceived meanings are measurable by few electrical tool ...

 I wrote about a specific cable to illustrate how measurements can speak to how something "sounds."   Please read more carefully.

And sorry, beyond that I'm not too inclined to follow you down your rabbit holes.  Been there, done that.

@audition__audio 

Shame that he may be responsible for guiding enthusiasts away from better sound and in the process decreasing sales from businesses that actually create.

Only if you think in a pseudo-science paradigm, which has been rife in high end audio for years, unfortunately.

Amir has helped so many audiophiles weed through some of the b.s. in high end claims, so they can spend their money more wisely - for instance, his review and measurements of the Nordost digital cable is educational and can help new, or old audiophiles from spending tons of money where it won't make a damned difference.

You may not avail yourself of this information, in which case you make yourself a mark for audio snake oil salesmen, but not all of us want to be a mark.