That might be my new favorite song! That is high art right there folks. 💩
Think I’ll serenade my wife with the chorus after work..
Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
Showing 23 responses by mofojo
Measurements are a starting point not the be all end all. If everything measured the same assuming we could measure everything (cannot) we would just have one speaker to choose from. Maybe a small/med/large. The china brand dacs they love so much might measure amazing on a 200 buck dac but are they sure don't sound as good subjectively. If I'm not mistaken the newer Topping D9x or something or other does not measure near as well as it's predecessor but it's pretty unanimous it sounds better Subjectively.
|
So tell me how you measure dynamics in a speaker? How fast the speaker is? Is that measurable? Mid bass punch under actual program material? I had pioneer S1ex speakers. Heavy as hell and measured really well. Well they had 0 mid bass and no dynamics for anything other than acoustic rock… which they were amazing at! If I was just that or maybe a classical guy might have been perfect. But alas despite the amazing measurements and the bombshell cabinet it was a no go. My Focal 836w measured worse but similar.They sounded TOTALLY different real world with a multitude of amps both ss and tube. |
“That's right. You need to then apply understanding of those measurements, the engineering behind the design and science of hearing. With all of those factors combined, you can build a high confidence idea of how good a piece of audio gear is vs other choices.”
says who? You? How far can you travel off the perfect measurement path Amir? “That's not to say there is no room for much more expensive DACs. Some of us, and that includes me, appreciate other things than sound such as looks, features (VU meters, EQ), etc. “
So the only difference between a $200 topping and a 2k dac with meters is meters? .. well not many dacs have meters so there’s that. Why the F would they have a meter? lol
|
“In other words, there is too much (upper) bass, than not. Of course in room and without EQ, you would have a lot of room modes to content with so even if your impressions are right, you would have to untangle them before blaming the speaker. I have a room mode at 105Hz which I dial out in my speaker reviews for this reason.”
nope that’s the exact opposite I heard. 0 upper bass no dynamics. Had all kinds of amps including a Krell 200S monster. Same thing. Best thing was a 50 watt Jolida integrated el84 tube amp. If you heard the combos you would agree unless you’re absolutely tone deaf. |
@danager , Did you really order the 80 buck dac? I’m curious to see your reaction when you hear the thing… please keep us updated. I know you could never do a blind test that would suffice Amir but if you do a variant of that it would be curious. Amir told me my Pioneer S1ex were dynamic and had great bass cause the measurements said so. Then it was my room. Then he just stopped talking. Then he said dynamics was just how loud something could play. Then he said…….. well you get the point. |
Nope they do measure pretty well. You were talking about John’s measuements and how it must have been my room(s) and multiple amps I used. Do you believe dynamics is how loud a speaker can play?? Macro/micro? You ignored this last time? Also fast is a thing in a speaker whether or not you say it is or not. Can you measure dynamics?? Most important top 3 for a speaker? How do you measure that with your equipment? Enquiring minds want to know. |
Are you serious Amir? You pick little one sentence snips that work to you narrative like you’ve been doing for the past 2 weeks .?? Ok I’ll be cleaeeaaaaarrrrr then. might even ask chat gpt to do it for me! Jk 1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING? 2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing) 3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS? by the way dynamics is the difference between soft and loud and how well the speaker presents and handles that transition. Just so you know it’s not how loud a speaker can play. How loud a speaker can play is just……. How loud a speaker can play. . . …. |
So other than measuring a bunch of tones, what else constitutes a “great”speaker? How do you measure that? Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute. |
LOL. .. really good at picking out what u want to defend aren’t ya. again: “ Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute. “ “Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? “ also these were not answers to any level of any sane persons satisfaction. 1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING? 2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing) 3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS?
|
Amir only wants to answer what he wants to answer. He will defer and ignore anything else and post a bunch of graphs and babble. I perused his site a bit and in one blurb about listening to a Dac on his headphones he marveled at the amazing dynamics! However here he says dynamics don’t exist and ignores the request to answer how that is measured. Nope sorry said dynamics are how loud it can play… musta been blaring his ears out I guess.. Hmm. |
Sure loves his Chineee Dacs! lol. If they all sound the same and are perfect to human hearing why keep measuring them. Why ever change one out?? Think the Toppings of the world aren’t benifiting greatly from Amir’s unconditional praise? Think he’s gettin paid…? Yep I lived in China for 6 years in a professional position. He’s either gettin paid or turning it down like I did. Somehow I think he’s not. Also my my main question was how do you measure dynamics?? Never answered it. Just “Said” how loud something can play, then you said it’s not a real thing , then in your blog on you asser site you were raving about some amazing dynamics! So… how do you measure dynamics with your test tones?? I’ll just keep posting the same question since you won’t answer it….you snotty little p…k |