Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 8 responses by classicrockfan

So he is an electrical engineer with a degree and is a truth-teller based on science and engineering principles and never speaks sweet lies. They are  paid trolls aka influencers come here to mislead viewers with their pseudo science nonsense and brag about their certificate degrees from community colleges. 

OMG they gang up on Amir because he's being truthful... what’s wrong with these people acting like bunch of "cry babies"

Amir was being honest with the measurement results he obtained. Science and its engineering applications are based on measurements.

 

"The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience."

Listening tests would be very subjective and subsequent magazine/online reviews and comments would be fallacious and deceptive like one below.

"This quantum based receptacle cover make the ambient atmosphere cleaner so that harmonics shimmer into silent and the space around instruments is even more obvious"

Amir would use his test equipment to prove these claims to be false so that we wouldn't waste our money on s.o. items like this. We have too many paid trolls aka influencers (or business owners themselves or with multiple user names) writing deceptive posts on this forum just to mislead viewers. Don't you want to say something about these trolls? It seems these trolls gang up on Amir.

 

@mapman 

" most of the angst comes from industry people who feel threatened "

Couldn't agree more! I'm sick and tired of seeing this forum flooded with paid trolls (or those affiliated).

@coralkong 

"ASR seems to me to be a place where hoards of people with cheap equipment are so desperate for validation that their $300 "insert piece of equipment here" is just as good as a $6000"

Of course ASR can prove that $300 equipment outperforms your $6000  SCIENTIFICALLY based on their measurements data (not based on your ears/brains) so you need to be thankful (or shameful)

@invalid

"I don’t like the sound of this so called great measuring inexpensive equipment and like the sound of my tube equipment?" Your personal preference. The measurements do not dictate you what to like or what to buy but inform you of the technical properties of an audio equipment. As long as you think your tube amp distort "pleasingly" you got your money’s worth.

@invalid

@audition__audio

You can identify them easily yourself they are all over the forum just pay extra attention to threads about cables/POWER cables/digital data cables/power conditioners/filters/fuses/receptacles/receptacle covers...

@coralkong

"use my brain/ears to judge how a product sounds to me.."

That’s your ’personal’ opinion. You can use your brain to conclude 1+1=3. But we don’t use your brain but use the measurements data/results to develop/analyze circuits/products. What we electrical engineers do at work modeling/simulation/measurements.

Later

 

@andy2 

"a better test would be using a square wave input.. "

You have no idea what you're talking about since a square wave jumps and repeats itself at a given frequency that is a 'discontinuity' you can't possibly use a s.w. input as an audio signal.

@laoman 

"you are a hypocrite - you throw people off your own site for expressing contrary opinions yet come here yet you come here and bleat your opinions like a goat"

You probably got kicked out for being unintelligent on ASR - a site full of engineers and physicists.

@rankaudio 

"Your head is so polluted... "

Now you resort to name calling and insults because you've run out of intelligent  ways to defeat Amir and ASR.

 

 

@nonoise

"defeat" is an aggressive word my apologies I should have used "refute" instead. ASR is not an cult you all are invited to express your opinions and listening experiences that don’t need to agree with the measurements or opinions of other members but don’t go dramatic like saying "my $2000 shunyata power cable made a startlingly significant improvement" or "give it 200 hrs of burn-in it will get better better better" because we know that’s not true. Amir created ASR on the principles of engineering to evaluate audio equipment so that we could trust ASR wholeheartedly since there's no sponsor or advertisement influence and absolutely no paid-trolls... but based on objective measurements.

Later.