A somewhat local dealer had an event that showcased the Dan D’Agostino Relentless Epic mono block amps, Relentless Preamplifier, Wilson Audio Chronosonic XVX speakers and subsonic subwoofer. Along with the Transparent cabling, HRS stands, DCS Dac and other accessories I estimate the total cost to be over $1Miilion.
I was able to sit in the front row center. The speakers estimated to weigh over 700 lbs. were toed in quite a bit towards the listener.
The demonstrator played a lot of obscure music that centered on some very deep bass. I must admit the bass was quite impressive.
Eventually (reluctantly) the demonstrator played a few tunes that I requested, and I was quite surprised.
With this million-dollar system the music sounded quite dull, the rep called it “mellow”, but to me it was dull. There was no life to the music, limited highs and zero music coming from the extreme left- right.
For instance, I use the Linda Ronstadt track “Blue Bayou” as a reference. Within this track at about the 40-60 second mark there is a mandolin that plays in the extreme left channel. On many systems that information is buried deep into the mix. However, systems with high resolution can play it clearly. Unfortunately, with this million-dollar system I could not even detect it.
So why is it? Can the Wilson speakers be adjusted in such a way as to accent the bass and attenuate the mid-treble? If so, why would they demonstrate that way? Were the speakers too toed in? Or was it because there were about 10 people in the room (btw, a large room) which muted some of the speaker’s energy? Whatever, I was NOT impressed.
Not so good dealer, rather things were assembled in a hurry, not a good match somewhere, i am not fond if Wilson speakers but i know Transparent cabling to be musical, probably too much of a good thing subtracting dynamics.
I was expecting to read that he treble was not integrated with the rest of the spectrum but your comments of lacking life suggest otherwise.
Anyway it is not the first time that negative comments appear on uber expensive gear, the same applies to budget ones too, bit in this case the scale is bigger, the point is that not all who trade them have the knowledge, experience to handle them correctly, with patience and added experimentation that set can play way much better.
I have had the privilege of hearing a similar system some years ago… however, it was in a permanent set up and there was one seat… the one I was in. It was revelatory. No guessing it’s potential, I could hear it.
I have been to a number of demos like this that were just terrible. Systems like this are made for one person… installation comes with a team of people and it takes time. I have found these demos interesting to see the presentations and after fifty years of pursuing the high end I can often hear through the problems.
But, the problem… the demo set up and group audience.
Could it be the system wasn’t worth $1,000,000? Sometimes expectation bias works in reverse, you expect $1,000,000 sound and that might be too big a shoe to fill.
I've listened to a million dollar system (Focal, constellation, clear audio and Transparent) and thought is was absolutely wonderful, so I guess we all have different tastes when relating to the dollar amount.
I understand and I agree with you. I've heard a lot of high dollar systems that are poorly positioned, in a crappy room that sound like crap and easily bested by a mid level system placed right and a proper room.
It's a bummer you had a bad experience, Wilson speakers sound wonderful when done properly and I am grateful I was able to meet Dave Wilson.
@ozzy+1, brilliant! I notice we both use an ADD-POWR product, I am using a QRT Octave (QRT was previous iteration of ADD-POWR before Bill selling it to Nordost) and you are using the Sorcer.
I find that too much toe in reduces seperation or imaging effect in my room. I find I need the speaker more straight toward me with slight inward slant to allow the sound to hit the side wall and reflect back to me from the side. I wish I could recall the song, but I was listening this weekend and I literally had to look to the side to see if someone was to the side of me making noise. I was surprised by the imaging I got.
Yes, I have my speakers with a very slight toe in. I guess with extreme toe in it produces more depth but at the expense of the soundstage.
I still don’t understand the lack of upper frequencies with the demo. I always thought Wilson speakers were actually tipped up in the high frequencies. Could it be the Dan D’Agostino Relentless Epic mono blocks?
I remember being unimpressed by the big VAC/Vonschweickert system at CAF a few years back. I think it probably pushed $1 million or some crazy amount but to me the sound was just “big” that’s all—didn’t sound like music just very dynamic HiFi.
It had to be a poor setup- larger Wilson’s have a huge range of adjustment for fine tuning. Heavy toe in sounds like they were in a hurry to setup or just didn’t know how to approach it.
I have similar experience as with Ozzy and 12many- sources appear to come from the sides (depending upon the recording).
Prices are out of control. Think about how many world class live performances you can attend for a million dollars! Just saying. By the way what is the expectation of a million dollar system?
My guess is with the poor room/setup camp. I'm sure these components can sound superb in the right place/setup. Your experience does reinforce the idea that paying more doesn't guarantee better sound.
I also found he recent Wilsons to be demonstrated in rooms that to my ears were over dampened so they sounded a little dull. Just swapping in our DAC changed that greatly. The system then became more alive. I cannot add more because it is hard to play in someone else's system. Reviewers need that for some reason. Wilsons are also set-up for one listener. So if you are a different height, etc., you will not hear what they are hearing.
Well…. I think it was about a million dollars and it sounded nuts good. Incredible, really….and to this day, that memory is the measure for tuning my system….of considerable less value.
The big Wilsons always sound like that. No surprise there. And if it’s not good, one can always blame the setup. I guess I never heard them set up properly (although it’s always done by the dealers and Wilson’s own rep)...
Possibly over priced, useless expensive hardware, comparable’s available for 1/10th the cost ? Pick it apart and a very well detailed system from 5 or so years ago would pound it ! Marking, pretty names, boxes, BS, it all sells.
Does your recording sound good with other systems? I’ve got two completely different systems set up and there are some recordings that sound great on one system and just so so on the other and vice versa. There are recordings that really sound exceptional on all systems and others that seem to only respond to certain setups. Could it have been that?
Well, setup is a big part of any system and obviously they cant do that very well "on the road". I'd also mention that good systems make bad recordings sound as they should (or maybe the word is "as they do").... bad.
But what you recount is different. Something that was present and audible on other systems was 100% missing. I frankly find this hard to believe, but can't really say any more. Gross errors like that simply don't happen.
So sorry you had a bad experience! I know I’d be excited to hear all the cool toys I’ve read about! And I’d be really bummed if they didn’t live up to the hype.
There’s probably fifty reasons for the lack of treble. The first thing that came my mind you mentioned, the electronics don’t play well with Wilson. The second thing I thought of, was everything “broken in”? Third, The source. There are many copies of Blue Bayou out there and even though it might say it’s HR, it could have been a crappy copy. And was the room well treated? Maybe over treated?
Basically in my opinion Basically with hi fi you are turning a formula one car. When it is all done right it is very impressive but wrong all you have is an old Chevy, Ford or Pontiac. So quite likely setup or matching etc etc was wrong or parts of many different small things. But no question the amount of money spent is not how good it sounds the best formula one car needs the crew and the driver to win.
Wilson loudspeakers should not be excessively toed in. The higher resolution the system, the more potential there is to destroy its sound with bad setup.
Knowing the sound quality of the individual components involved, that system has the potential to sound magnificent. If it didn’t, it's down to the room, the setup or a combination of both.
I’ve heard Wilson Watt Puppies that made you think the singer was in the same room with you. They were paired with a Nagra preamp and a Mark Levinson power amp. Many years ago but still remember the incredible detail.
Was it LMC in Scottsdale AZ? 18 months ago, I spent 3 hours auditioning their set-up showcasing Dan D’Agostino monos & pre-amp. Wilson Audio Chronosonic XVX speakers and subsonic subwoofer towers. Transparent cabling, etc. I was informed I was listening to a $1M+ system that Wilson's representatives had personally spent 2 full days optimising the speaker placement.. It was dynamic, but little else. No soul, no finesse, soundstage was muddy and compressed, etc. They let me drive their streaming set up via an iPad interface. None of my goto tracks sounded good. I was highly disappointed by what I heard, and was thrilled to return home to my own listening chair.
The ultra high end speakers have like 17 drivers in them and not even a 1000w mega amp can drive them properly. Imagine trying to design a coherent crossover for such a multi driver array, with many of those drivers housed in 4-5 different separated cabinets.
This is why all they excel in is the bass and large orchestra, the smaller scale stuff and music at low volumes sounds terrible.
The other issue is lack of positioning. A movement of cm, even a few mm, can dial in a speaker drastically. These top of the line ultra speakers all weight at least 200kg, sometimes 400-500 kg each. They just get plonked down and that's it. Yes they calculate the position beforehand, but this can never account for the real world room conditions, and its impossible to do trial and error positioning with such heavy speakers.
100% perfect, unattainable on Earth by the means of mankind; Mount Audio Olympus, where the Gods live; they have no equipment; they just ask for music and its so amazing that they break down crying.
Then there’s the real world where we live, and the best we can attain is 96%.
It’s shockingly easy to attain high 80’s or 90%, with learning and wise choices, but those last few percentage points are where we wonder if there’s more to be had, and debate what is best.
The difference between 90% and 91% vs 95% and 96% is like the scale of earthquakes or the force of wind, not a gradient scale but an exponential scale: it’s easier to go from 90% to 91% than it is to squeak out those last few percentage points to enter the elite realm of 95% or 96%.
It's because all of these once great companies have become parodies of themselves trying to eclipse "the last great thing."
I remember my Krell KSA80 amps blowing my mind with gut-wrenching LF control and sweet mids and highs. WTF did I sell them? GAS...
I've listened to every iteration of Dan's amps. Every amp has, in some small or occasionally minuscule, been a step away from MUSIC.
I remember KSA Audio Standards, in a system with more $$$ in interconnects than our entire system. When my wife and I were getting in the car after an extensive listening session looked at me and said "let's go home and listen to music!" Sterile, emotionless and souless musical reproduction just needs to go away.
do you know why there was no life to the music Ozzy? that's because they were using those crappy transparent ofc junk cables that they charge an arm and a leg for, those boxes screw up everything they make everything sound dead and lifeless the best cable to use is OCC single crystal wire, has been proven now for 50 years to be the best wire for audio far superior to anything ofc at any price.
Its description doesn’t make much sense to me. For instance:
"The audio circuit topology starts with a new discrete differential FET input stage featuring a voltage input signal capability of an extraordinary 30 volts."
Why would one want 30 volts of input sensitivity? For XLR input, a sensible default would be 0.775 volts, for RCA 0.250 volts.
It is fashionable these days to go up to 4.0 volts and 2.0 volts correspondingly for XLR and RCA, yet 30 volts is just way too high.
Output of, for instance iPad, would be way too low for that, with resulting subjective lack of dynamics.
"All signal gain is realized in the current domain using proprietary multiple-output current mirrors with nearly 30 times the linearity of other designs" .
There is no gain in a current mirror circuit. That is why it is called "mirror". Well, one can argue that a gain of 1.0 is still a gain, yet I would argue that one could also get a passive switch box with passive volume control instead of a bunch of current mirrors, and be done with it.
"Utilizing no negative feedback anywhere ..."
How does it achieve linearity then? Does it use some alien technology amplification components instead of transistors or vacuum tubes? If not, and the input signal swings the whole allowed range, then absence of negative feedback must result in non-trivial distortions.
If the idea is that the expected input voltage is standard, so that the input differential stage operates over a small portion of its range, thus increasing linearity, then the issue of excessive noise arises, subjectively perceived as lack of detail. Unless, of course, the preamp, once again, uses some kind of alien technology for amplification and passive components.
"Total Harmonic Distortion <.006%, 20Hz to 20kHz"
At what input voltage? At what gain setting? Without specifying those, the specified distortion figure isn’t overly informative. The preamplifier may well be nice, yet it also may be both more distorting and noisier than typical professional gear used in mastering studios. Hard to tell from the description and specs.
I've listened to a few different systems at that dealer I know exactly what you are talking about, my buddy and myself looked at each other and said how completely underwhelming that was. I don't know how they sell the stuff that they do when it sounds so mediocre.
@ozzy It may be that the sound of the system simply did not suit your taste - we each have different sound preferences. Presumably your own (much cheaper?) system does suit your taste. So just to put us in the picture please let us know the components of your system.
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