I think you are right on the spot...
Krall will help us all ...😊
Great map ... Thanks
Made In China
There seems to be a lot of varying opinion when it comes to China and the products that are made there. I personally know of an audio store in my home town that made the decision to no longer carry products with manufacturing ties in China. Maybe that’s why they have such a limited show room? Recently, I purchased a Cayin RU2 portable DAC and headphone dongle that‘s made in China. It’s the only audio product that I own that’s solely manufactured by a Chinese company and so far I have no complaints. Of course, my Apple products were likely made in China and I like those a lot. And if I’m correct (and I’m likely incorrect), Denafrips and Schiit Audio products are assembled in China but I’m uncertain where those companies are located. So I’m just wondering about audio products from Asia that offer high end build and sound quality. I would assume that most products from China, Korea, Japan, etc… offer a high value for the dollar? Anyway, please feel free to share your opinion and knowledge on this topic as I’m wanting to learn more about what‘s out made and engineered in that part of the world.
Thanks!
75 responses
It's all about the Dollar. If you can produce a product that's similar, for a cheaper price people will go buy it. Is the cheaper price worth it? In a small town when you buy something from a local vendor the money will spread throughout the village and all within that village will prosper. Jobs are created. However, the sad truth is...it doesn't matter if the manufacturer is from your village. We now can easily extend past the village. The enticement is powerful. Even if they are a friend or neighbor people will now quietly buy the cheaper product to save money. Even though it will hurt the local economy and possibly put your friend out of business, it doesn't matter, there is NO loyalty to do so. I believe that people would buy product from the Devil himself if it was a cheaper price. A short sighted view with no consideration of long term effects. |
japan is where you get the finest gear made by the best at prices commensurate to the quality and craftsmanship of the gear, not really a place for bargain hunting. |
Political concerns aside, quality can be problematic. I deal with them for heavy equipment and components in oil and gas production. They will just absolutely lie about what a sub component is, with fake test results and counterfeit labels. Things like a certain grade of steel pipe not being what they say. Or heat and vibration resistant capacitors from Switzerland being a knock off with a fake label. So even good faith assemblers in China get garbage passed onto them without them knowing. They have no comprehension of intellectual property or trade names. And it tends to get worse as you go along. After years of things going well, suddenly garbage starts being shipped. Long way of saying, it can be great stuff, but very much buyer beware. |
Yes indeed, Chinese commies are threatening the sovereignty of the world’s countries (No, there are no US bases circling China and Russia, i don't see any...I see Chinese and Russian bases all around the USA). Only Diana Krall playing @60 db for the audiobool on his fleawatt amp and 15k power cable can bring back world peace.
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There are many reasons not to buy a Chinese made product when there is a suitable alternative that’s made in a country with a similar playing field to the USA. Where I believe many companies go wrong is they don’t consider that country of origin is important to many of us, and not supporting the Chinese economy is in all of our best interest. Audio equipment is a source of pride for many of us, and something that connects with our soul. B&W is an example of not understanding how many audiophiles think. While the 805 series of speakers are made within their UK factory with pride, you only need to drop down to the 700 series to find they are made in China, and the 705’s cost a whopping $3400! For that price there are a whole lot of other options that aren’t made in China. As so often happens, when a business becomes too large, or is taken over by a large corporation, the location of manufacturing becomes less important for them, and it’s all about the marketing and incremental profit. A savvy consumer, and someone who is looking for more than a brand name at a cheap price, will seek out quality, and something they can be proud of. This is certainly a conversation that could go on forever, and if you have time, I’d love to talk about Vice-Grip…. |
You are so right... Even an ex Chinese exile woman interviewed by Tucker Carlson from the CCP living here in the US recognized with fears the ideology of our so called "free and better society " as pure propaganda by many social aspects ... Canada under Trudeau is becoming a jail under surveillance as CCP modelled it in China right now ... the WHO unelected privately controlled institution proposition for the censorship about any matter of Health or politics is evident proof.. it is useless to boycott a selected country agression and not all the others countries who do the same agressions in their own way.. Selected boycott is only propaganda.. truth inhabit the heart of some people around the world not the politics of a country presented as a model ...
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You take a fact i gave out of his context... Read my posts context... I compared a country number of planet earth bases and conflicts numbers out of his historical borders with another country number of bases and conflicts out of his historical borders... I never suggested that a war is right invading another country...On this count Us beat Russia by the number of wars in all countries around earth ... It is you who takes propaganda as fact and appeal to censor my post... Facts are facts. And i did not begin the propaganda lies here... I only propose facts to counter them... back to audio... You are right about this... 😊
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I kind of started from scratch a few years ago. I purchased a Topping D90. Still have it and enjoy it. The digital section has very good parts. I don't know about the analog side but sound is neutral. I don't have the budget to experiment. But I am curious. I purchased silver coated OCC copper with Rhodium coated 45 degree angle bananas that have expanding ends to lock them into place. 2 M speaker cables $93. I am sending my American made ribbon wires to have the same ends put on. Those wires were $100. I have American spirit. I love America. I have strong opinions but it is a waste of time in most cases to argue with people. Especially here. Either buy or not, there are personal reasons one way or the other.. |
@mahgister you seem to know very little about Russia's history. But let's move on. By your logic, anyone can use the historical border argument. The World would be a bloodbath in a split second. Historical borders were arguments used in devastating world wars. I would recommend you look at maps from a few hundred years ago. |
Ukraine is part of Russia history and historical borders... And an historical fact is not a defense of agression it is only an historical fact ... Second: Us had 750 known military bases around earth...Russia own 20 bases mostly all in the borders of the ex Soviet union...then Russia has no bases all around the earth.. What is threatening between two countries , the one owning bases all around a planet or the other who did not ? These are FACTS... Not propaganda as is your appeal to censorship...
Are we not in a free country here ?
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My 2 cents: Boycotting goods for political reasons is a form of political activism. We intend to induce change, or at the very least opt out of involvement with those we don't agree with, or find utterly disgusting. While we might feel better about ourselves, our "activism" may not produce the change we looking for. Oftentimes our "good intentions" actually make things worse for those we are trying to "help." I can sight many examples. As far as the CCP is concerned, you don't have to look very deep to see how complex the income stream is for that country. Political royalty from all over the globe have expressed "public anti-CCP ideologies" yet take bribes and do business with those who, let's say, don't have our best interests at heart. So, we're sitting here at our desktop agonizing on whether or not to purchase a DAC from a Chinese company, while billions are being pushed in their direction by those we "trust". Yes, I get the "living with yourself" factor, and we all want to do the "right thing." I boycotted an American company that insulted their customers: "Here's our stance. If you don't agree with us you're stupid, and a terrible person." I understand the hesitation to support those who (as reported) are 180 degrees out of phase with our core values (or grossly misinterpret our values). It gets back to the audio. Value is certainly a consideration. But, there not one person here that isn't willing to pay more to get more. Sometimes Chinese goods fill that basic requirement as well.
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@mahgister Russia not "owning any military bases out of their historical borders" other than an entire army in another country, bombing cities and villages, killing and and raping and torturing civilians and shipping babies and children into brainwashing camps. Small nuance. I thought you were somewhat reasonable. What does it take the admin to remove this wildly politicized post? |
The stereotype of China making junk is really outdated, and simply not true. I focus on buying Made in USA when possible and practical, but judge other purchases by the company making them, not the freakin location. I work for one of the top three electronics contract manufacturers on the planet, and have for the past 28 years+ with plants and employees in China and all over Asia and the rest of the planet. We make high tech stuff for the top names. Many of these places operate extremely high tech and high quality manufacturing. We live in a world economy, so you cannot escape the fact that some components of whatever you buy will not be Made in USA for many reasons. Get past the old stereotypes of Asia making junk as that is not the case even though there is still a lot of low end stuff being made there, it's not the rule. For folks who focus on Made in USA, there is still a lot to choose from if you look. |
I purchased interconnects from china for under $100 per piece. I’ve owned some good interconnects in the past such as the sigma v2, and a used pair of the stealth audio Indra V10 (these were not cheap $$). Are the chinese cables as good as either of them? no but honestly, they are not that far off. To get this quality elsewhere I would have to pay many multiples more I havent purchased anything else directly from China but the value is there. You cant match the bang for buck Would I rather support a domestic company? of course But the price disparity is ridiculous. Like maybe if I could match the quality of these interconnects for $1,000 we could have a discussion.... but I cant. Some of these xlrs are 5 figures and the price gouging is out of control so I have no regrets |
I notice that anytime a question is asked about Audio Equipment that has anything to do with China, a large percentage of comments become political. While we are all entitled to our opinions, I would remind everyone of the story of Glass Houses and Stones. When I look at the mess in our own countries, I question the Holier Than Thou attitudes being tossed about. Let's get back to discussing audio equipment and leave the saving of the world to those more qualified. Like The Donald. 😭 |
laoman - freedom and democracy are not free, nobody’s playing revisionists history here, you must not have the same meaning as I do when is say, “In modern times…”. The Vietnam war was a debacle and with the luxury of clear hindsight, a mistake. War is now being played out, when possible, with precision munitions so that collateral deaths and injuries are eliminated or greatly lessened. But it’s not always possible, and it’s often very ugly both to body and mind. But that can’t take away the good the U.S. does in this world, in these MODERN TIMES, not 50 years ago. hilde45 - nobody is stealing oil out from underneath anyone’s sand, it’s being bought and paid for. If this moron of a president we have now had half a brain we’d be oil independent. And by the way, I think they’re both morons, I simply like conservative policies much better than the alternative. |
Jay's CD Transports Gustard dacs LHY switches Excellent quality, great connectivity, no issues for multiple years. Hard to believe there are better values anywhere. I own equipment from China, Japan, USA, Portugal, UK, Danemark and Taiwan. It all sounds right to my ears. If I picked only equipment from countries that would align with my personal values, I would own nothing.
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For me it's a difficult choice. I'm an American. I love American made quality. I love legacy American products- like Audio Research, Pass Labs and Magnepan. I prefer to keep my money in my home town- local businesses get my dollars whenever possible. After that nationally. I'm cool with Canadian quality products as well- like Bryston. However the issue of quality matters too- I drive a Lexus not a Cadillac- (although I do own a 1971 Eldorado convertible) If a piece that is exemplary happens to be ChiFi I'm OK with that- sorta. I have iPhones. Meh- my first DAC was ChiFi and pretty good quality too. Again meh- I guess as a Detroit boy and a former steel producer I'm pained by American industry being lost to Globalists. So I am happiest when I support my countrymen. So it's ARC over a Burmister for me! |
We win the second world war among many factors at play for two economic understated reasons here in North American comic books and movies about Hitler : First the price in combats numbers and battles in men : here Us had no right to compare to Russia loss ... 420,000 deaths compared to the huge Russia sacrifice fixing Most Hitler forces on the ice of Russia: 27 millions of death.
Without Russia no way US can win against european nazified industry... It takes and it is my second point the huge 1000 boats of the merchant fleet of Norvegian navy transport for England survival to annihilate the Hitler conquest by alimenting England as a fortified island.. The russians and the Norvegian fleet did the hard job.. wikipedia : «Without the Norwegian merchant fleet, Britain and the allies would have lost the war".[1
I recommended to buy Norvegian and Russian audio products. 😁None of these countries being Nazis or communist right now. None owning any military bases out of their historical borders. By the way Norvegians refused to comply and do not delivered jews and saved 90 % of their jew population... America refuse to host most jews demanding asylum... Truth matters... We all love our country but blind nationalism is only propaganda...
It is like in audio many people takes the truth in reverse mode : It is acoustics and psychoacoustics science that rule gear design quality and it is acoustics then the main knowledge to reach audiophile experience not merely an upgrade of amplifier or speaker in itself most of the times. The only exception will be to go from very low cost speakers as my 100 bucks one to my past Tannoy dual Gold concentric for example ... but i modified my little speakers low cost they almost compete with the Tannoy if we put them in a living room instead of a dedicated acoustic room...
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I peesonally try to keep my money close to home. North America. Canada makes some really good products. It seems that most gear made in the US is out of my price range. Schiit exclueded. Canada offers the Anthem and Paradigm brands, which i own and really like, at relatively moderate prices for their mid level gear. For the money that was the best i could afford of the North American companies. My sub is a rel. Yes china made but they are just good at what they do and its what Im familiar with. Im not ruling out an American made sub in the future but i think rel is hard to beet in the world of subs. |
@laoman +1 |
The best products for a small country is Denmark they make a lot of great products Germany also , North America too is very good . Products from Taiwan ,and Hong Kong are the pretty sound . Several big cable companies have some of their connectors made in Taiwan by their standards . Schiit uses some parts from China inside on a few components. ,I have owned their dacs , the freya + the vast majority is U.S or Europe ,a few parts from China to say made in U.SA I believe as long as over 50 % parts and assembled here then it can be called. That. Your budget too will dictate a lot of this . Many Loudspeaker drivers that are pretty decent are made in Taiwan, Malaysia ,Parasound made in Taiwan . I opened up a friends McIntosh to recommend parts for rebuilding . they were owned by a Audiophile then sold out to a corporation , parts quality for sure should be higher in some areas.when corporations buy them it’s all about cost savings and production , sad but true . The pricing is getting way outof control during coved now prices25% higher . Now it’s more an investment. You have to save for . That’s the way it is . |
anotherbob: "The U.S. promotes freedom and democracy around the world". Wow there is a bit of historical revisionism going on there. Whenever I travel to Xieng Khouan and see many limbless kids and adults because they picked up anti personnel weapons dropped by the US - more bombing per head of population than during the whole of WW2 I will think of that comment Bob. |
The World has always been, and will always be, an imperfect place. If you truly want to keep yourself free of human exploitation you need to live in a monastery, wear a hairshirt and grow your own food. I don’t have the perfect answer but listening to well reproduced music is one the few unadulterated pleasures that I have. |
In modern times, the U.S. has done more in military aid, economic aid, and humanitarian aid than any other country in the world. The U.S. funds the lions share of NATO, and also offers economic and humanitarian aid during natural disasters in far flung places around the world. The U.S. promotes freedom and democracy around the world. The U.S. militaries play a large roll in insuring freedom of navigation in disputed and contested waters around the world. Terrorism is fought, though based on the current administration’s border “policies,” many middle eastern and Chinese “military-aged-males” have been strolling unopposed right into our country primarily from the south, but also increasingly from the north. It chills me to the core thinking what the results of this administration’s gross negligence on the borders will end up costing us. No, the U.S. is not perfect, most of its inner cities face soaring crime, horrible school attendance and grades, but some crimes are starting to go down, and graduation rates are inching up. Drugs, particularly Chinese sourced ingredients and production equipment for making fentanyl continue to be a problem. More US teens and young adults have died from fentanyl overdoses than died in the Vietnam war. But despite all her shortcomings, on balance the U.S. continues to be among the strongest, most generous and compassionate countries in the world, promoting freedom, peace, democracy, and when needed, a strong military across the globe.
But for those citizens, illegals, and everyone in between, just remember, you can leave whenever you want, can’t do that everywhere. |
The challenge I have with MADE IN CHINA products is the fact that Chinese companies (some are joint ventures with their western counterpart) continue to be opaque in their relationship with or ownership by members of the Chinese Communist Party, as the majority of companies in China have ties with the CCP. Just google the "Construction Cranes Made in China" to see very recent troubling developments there... Having said that, most audio companies are rather SMALL compared to automobile manufacturing companies... and I have my doubts if CCP will exploit audio companies for their political / economic advantage. BUT, I still do not trust the CCP, period. |
Back to the OP's question. A company I'm quite familiar with, Vincent Audio, has a lot of their products built in China. All of their products are designed in Germany, and they built their own factory in China and have the control to maintain the build process to their strict standards. I currently own three examples, all hybrid tube/ss, which is something Vincent got into early on. IMHO, their gear bats way above it's price range and the build quality rivals that of western countries. It is also some of the best sounding gear I have owned, and, with several years in, I have yet to experience any problems with my examples. |
Lots of High-End audio equipment is manufactured in China and many people don't even realize it. It all comes down to the quality control of the manufacturing and who is driving it! I own Holo Audio May DAC and Serene preamp from China and I can assure you the quality is first rate and better than that of many high-end companies from other places including the US! I also own Korean made equipment and American made equipment. I remember when I was a kid everyone knew Japanese products were junk! That all changed due to Deming and the US helping them improve the manufacturing process after WW2. China is certainly capable of manufacturing high end audio equipment and a lot cheaper that most countries! |
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Opera Consonance and Music AM make outstanding amplifiers. I tend to avoid products made in America as I am strongly against the foreign policy pursued by that country over the years and its interference in foreign regimes. As you posted, "It comes down to common decency.". I am also boycotting anything made in Israel until that country sees a regime change, |
IAG is an innovative vertically integrated maker, and their Warfedale 85th Anniversary Heritage speaker is an amazing value at $1400 a pair. Hearing is believing. Many say this is the best speaker in world under $2k matching speakers that sell over $5k. I drive them with an amp made in the Midwest US 40 years ago. I love them both. |
Any country that keeps 1.3 million Uighurs in concentration camps where mass rape, waterboarding, and sexual abuse are practiced is hardly a "wart" to be overlooked, or being "holier than thou" to notice, or a hypocrite either. It’s pretty cold blooded to do business with those perpetrating those atrocities in China in order to save money on our equipment. It does not come down to being a "status or culture war". It comes down to common decency. The horrors being perpetrated in China are intolerable just like the WW2 era Nazi concentration camps, not a joke, and not be ignored. Many horrors have been perpetrated throughout history throughout the world. Looking the other way on issues this big has not been the answer then or now. Mike |
If you were shopping for an ICBM would you avoid North Korea because they starve their people? Would you avoid buying goods made in the USA because you have come to realize that 99% of our elected politicians are bought and paid for by big business? If a person were to compose a list of countries that continue human rights violations and only buy from from wonderful people like the Swiss-haha, Israelites, Mexico, Guatemala, you will be kidding yourself. Personally I avoid China made goods and support US companies but not in every case. Why? Well nobody's perfect! |
This may be splitting hairs but "made in China" and "assembled in China" are different in my opinion. I have owned several Hegel amps and loved them all. Manufacturing takes place in China, leaving the Norway HQ for product development, circuit design, parts sourcing, testing, repairs and software coding. I have no issue with a company assembling product where it makes economic sense. We live in a global community. |
Every industrial country has or is committing some sort of social injustice. English, French, Dutch and German products come from countries that were steeped in colonial imperialism or outright genocide. US and Canadian products are produced on land stolen from the indigenous peoples with societies built on the backs of slaves and exploited immigrants. Japanese manufacturing grew out of the brutality of their Asian conquests in WWII. S. Korea is highly stratified with throngs of under paid workers. Chinese labor practices have already been covered. Most other manufacturing countries have their warts, too. So what it really comes down to is whether or not the product performs well for the given price. What country it originates from is really a status or culture war issue. |
