Last Critical Tweak… how to quell occasional high harshness…?

Two choices: go on a wild goose chase spending money, changing gear and accomplishing nothing OR see an audiologist.

What are you using for power cords and power conditioning?  Past that I’d definitely be looking squarely at your Duelund tinned copper interconnects first and also speaker cables.  Here’s a review where he alludes to the interconnects having a bit of an edge to them that moving to the Dual version seemed to ameliorate, and I’d guess there are plenty of other options that would also be a big or bigger improvement (Acoustic Zen, Transparent, Cardas, Snake River, etc.) albeit at higher cost.  Other than these components I don’t see the other equipment in your system being a source of the issue assuming it’s not the recordings themselves.  Just my $0.02 FWIW, and best of luck.   

https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/long-term-listening-impressions-duelund-dual-dca16ga-interconnects-with-duelund-plastic-free-rcas/

Too many possible culprits. I’ll start with the simplest and the cheapest options-

1. Speaker placement - how far apart are your speakers (center to center); what’s the distance between center of horn driver to side wall and front wall (that’s the wall behind the speakers); This can easily influence the issue you describe 

2. Any acoustic treatments on any of these walls

3. Cables - I’ve had this issue with several interconnect cables I tried in my system   Onece I never had this issues with were Acoustic Zen Matrix Reference MkII and Absolute Copper. These cables are slightly warmer sounding with even top to bottom balance. On a cheap to test what interconnects can do, try these cables from Amazon - get the OCC version, replace all Deuland https://a.co/d/6a8DMZE

Also try their power cord on amp and other components including streamer - https://a.co/d/6nQEACK  

May be even give their OCC speaker cables a try

4. And this is a more controversial topic but this is absolutely critical in streaming - Ethernet cables, routers, other network components. You don’t mention your network config. If you have routers or switches in close proximity to your components and signal cables move all of it away to minimize RFI and EMI. For a more or less decent Ethernet cable try Try this cable - https://a.co/d/0gT7wnr

 +1 @soix. The speaker cables stand out as a very likely culprit. 

I agree  your cable are the culprit.

 audphile1 nailed it. Especially #4.

- - - 

Symptoms of un-clean power - link here.

It could be most anything but if it is only occasional high frequency issues you might want to try something like a Loki 4 band equalizer between your source and integrated amp. It has a bypass switch you can use to defeat it when not needed.

But, since it just happened with a system change, if you are up to it financially you might try using different tubes (don't ignore new production tubes, they can work) or new cable (depending on the length needed). I never use less that 12 gauge, most often 10 ga. If you don't understand the differences in cables you might just want to listen to the opposite poles of possibilities on the cheap to see what kind of sound you might like. For example some 10ga Belden and 12 Ga Mogami. Both cheap but will give you some idea which direction you need to be going. 

Logically since you have just 'leveled your system' (whatever that might mean) you might just want to revisit what you are trying to do. If it means you are trying to get a flat frequency response at your listening position you may have introduced the problem which is not consonant with your hearing ability. An imbalance of the frequency response of your ears and system might just be the cause of the problem. For example, the loss of hearing in the highs (mostly overtones) can affect what you hear (emphasized) in the lower range and actually make it sound bright. Not an uncommon experience for some older men who don't recognize the possible effect of age induced hearing loss. 

A complex issue to solve, I don't envy you. :-)

Some good suggestions here. I’m going to suggest a different path. I see two potential culprits:

1) tube microphonics. It’s possible your tubes are introducing distortion from resonance. Only way to really tell is to try something different, which, of course, changes the sonic character overall. But better tube quality does not guarantee lack of microphonic excitation.

2) Get ready for the eye rolling from the usual suspects in these forums, but I banished my last bit of harshness with the addition of the Reiki Audio superswitch and linear power supply. I had a different upgraded (modest) in there and I was skeptical if it brought anything to the table but kept it in anyway. Marginal improvement at best, and perhaps my imagination. The Reiki brought immediately apparent improvement. I’m sure there are other switches that would do the same, but I can personally attest to this one. Digital artifacts are hard to banish and none sound good like 2nd order harmonics do from tubes. At least worth an audition.

My $.02.

Good luck.

Simple EQ can take the edge off and tone it down to your perfect level. 

I would experiment with speaker placement first because it costs nothing. You didn’t mention acoustic treatments, but that would be next on my list if your room is not treated because it may bring you all sorts of benefits In addition to entertaining the highs. 
 

After a cursory look at your components... it is really puzzling. It would take some really bad interconnects to do this kind of thing to the sound of your components. 

Could we please see your system. Please post photos in a Virtual system. When the description of a problems is so unusual, it is often something not mentioned. Thanks. 

Very rare for Duelund 16ga tinned copper to be called harsh, yes, I've seen a few reports but generally  Duelund products natural timbre. On the other hand 16ga is rather thin gauge for speaker cable, may be emphasizing upper mids and highs.

I ran PL Dialogue a bit ago, preferred EL34 vs KT. Also run Duelund wire in my modified Khorn crosssovers, they are not harsh or unnatural, no way.

Without some data about the room, first, I don't have much to say about gear.

Back down on the 'gain'

Sounds to me like you have noise entering into your system. A Snake River Audio Cottonmouth PC on one component would tame this. Alternatively, a Vera-Fi Snubway or MC A/C line conditioner combo would definitely clean up some of the noise. 

You would be surprised at just how much noise can enter a system, using a streamer. Getting rid of that noise (and the different types) can be a daunting challenge. 

Tom

Whatever our ears/brain try to cover the truth, they can’t hide every thing. The truth is all audio systems sound un-listenable harsh. Human ears and brain trick men to not hear it. Many people (who don’t like hi-fi) hear the truth. Therefore, they call us audiofools. Watch below video. All audio speakers sound/behave like the left speaker. Test your system saying "hello" with your speaker playing. Alex/Wavetouch audio

Your speakers sound like the left speaker

OP    This song, horns seem to shatter.  This song, vocals seem to pierce. 

The sources of those sibilance can come from all sorts of places, and can be tough to track down.  I chased similar issues for a while. It wasn’t just one notable thing in my case....it was little bits in a few areas.  

Some trial and error to remove traces of "glare" included changing interconnects (added Furutech Fa-AS22),  changing out cheap speaker jacks for pure copper, upgrading inductive cast resistors to non-inductive resistors in the crossovers, added 1/2" felt wedges around the tweeter, had the op amps in my DAC upgraded to MuseS02 and added a linear regulated power supply to replace a wall wart, upgraded some caps in my preamp, and did enough tube rolling until I got the right combination.  Maybe I got lucky, but that issue has been resolved. 

Definitely a head scratcher. I would start with what is on hand. 

1) Try tube rolling with what you have.

2) Try rolling cables you may have on hand.

3) I have found the larger the speaker gauge, in my system, the clearer the sound. I have moved up to 7 gauge (WBC Quad Pro - a very affordable option).

4) Finally power cables. My experience suggests they impact bass clarity at a very high price. 

In my experience it is the rare system that does not exhibit some harshness at times. I also believe that some recordings and masterings and pressings thereof have a bit of sharpness. But perhaps, most importantly, the Fletcher-Munson curves show that humans are most sensitive to frequencies from 1.5K to 6K, peaking at about 3.75K. By up to 10dB. Additionally, some of us are more bothered by these frequencies than others. And finally, the whole process of recording and playback from microphones to speakers is far from perfect. In fact, it's amazing to me that it works at all and sometimes even sounds like real music. 

I recently switched out my duelund 16ga interconnects exact because they seemed to be exaggerating the upper end. I switched them out to cables that I already had from a prior system (anticables “level5) and it was immediately noticeable. Not sure where I will end up in the cable search. On my prior system I went from the anticables to Cardas clear reflection to the duelund. I sold the Cardas so I can’t easily re-try them. 
let us know!

glen

Assuming everything is in good working order to start with, DSP is the ultimate and most flexible tweak. 

We are playing the original music to hear it. A good audio system should sound close to the original music sound. All upgrade should sound toward to the original sound which is the absolute reference. Any component sounds more different from the original sound, that’ll be the down grade. Alex/Wavetouch audio

Look into ear oil. A few drops occasionally can prepare your aging ears for those bursts of trumpet.

try finding vintage Tung-sol , Sylvania or black plate RCA tubes . 

Serious question.

Does alcohol consumption impact the sensitivity of the harshness?  It has been noted before that individuals that have a drink or two during listening sessions notice a difference in treble / tweeter performance relative to the amount consumed.  

If so, you might consider that as you tweak your system.

OTHERWISE, the harshness is a likely a matter of differences at the recording level / source material.  Different recordings / venues / studios may have differences in tonal balance.  e.g.  DG vs. Philips vs. Decca/London.  Carnegie Hall vs. SLSO Powell Hall.

It’s so funny… I swap out my Duelund interconnect between my dac and my amp with my old encore Ii, and the shrill is gone. 

I haven’t yet tried at higher volumes (I am two whiskeys in to a 2am listening sesh) but I think I will try burning in properly the Duelund interconnect in my frybaby (I didn’t get a chance for a full break in previously), and then compare again against the encore II. 

am quite presently pleased with my old Encore II, the lack of high end harshness allows me to screw my high pass filter back into the Pure Audio crossover, which I had tried removing when the shrill was so pronounced…. And I do love the cymbal sizzle the high pass affords….

now I wonder… so to “complete” (further extend) this pursuit to fully flesh out this mystical music device…. What interconnect may be a Devine choice for this system?

-I had really enjoyed the sound profile of my previous Cardas clear usb cable (currently on an mc zen coax)

-forward rich mids… acoustic and voice and horns and stings and and and

-and of course, NO harshness or shrill…

thank you all for your insights and suggestions! Willing to entertain a wide range of budgets for this rca (as I have released some purse strings for this pursuit)

r

The affordable Primeda cables on Amazon are fairly laid back in the treble while preserving good clarity and excellent sound stage.  A cheap experiment.

You could buy these to compare to the Duelund, and at this price if they don’t provide a meaningful improvement you can sell them likely for a profit so little/no risk.  These interconnects retail for $920 so would be an interesting comparison.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650234922-acoustic-zen-matrix-reference-ii/

I would be open to a high end cable… or if there were some way to audition a set of cables…? A good dealer in New York City?

recs for specific cables up to 1k, ideally used? 
 

and recs for dealers who would loan me a set of cables for me to audition?

thanks,

r

recs for specific cables up to 1k, ideally used?

In addition to the ones I just recommended there are these AZ Silver Ref II at an excellent price that retail for $1750.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650236204-acoustic-zen-silver-reference-ii-interconnect-cables-rca-1-meter/

and recs for dealers who would loan me a set of cables for me to audition?

You could also try direct sellers like Triode Wire Labs, Morrow, Veritas, etc. who offer generous trial periods and all get very good reviews.  I’d also mention Silversmith Fidelium interconnects that don’t appear on their website yet but well worth contacting them about.  Just some more options to ponder.

https://silversmithaudio.com/fidelium-cables/

Interesting options I will look into all of them. 
 

how about a Cardas clear interconnect?

@whyrichard There you go. Cardas are generally my go to cable, never any irritations, resolution/transparency goes up as you go up the line. I borrowed large number of cables over fair amount of years from CableCompany, and I came out with Cardas at the end of things. As for Clear IC, just happened to purchase one just a few minutes ago! Also use Golden Reference, oldie but goodie. Still don't get the reports of shrillness with Duelund cable, as IC's they on warm, lower resolution side of things, other issues in system or lack of burn is problem if hearing upper mid and high issues.

Sit close to the speakers.  Does the problem completely go away?  You jave an acoustics problem and your ropm is too reflective. 

@erik_squires  Sit close to the speakers.  Does the problem completely go away?  You jave an acoustics problem and your ropm is too reflective. 

But that would kill the conversation about cables and capacitors! It's all about the stuff, man.

Good suggestion to take the room out of it first in order to better understand the problem before taking any major steps to address. 
 

If one keeps spares around, which is always a good strategy, substituting one component at a time can help isolate the problem.  Lots of work but the smart way to go about it. 
 

The nice thing about my DSP suggestion earlier is that it is a relatively easy way to fix most issues and still adds lots of value by allowing one flexibility in getting exactly the desired sound no matter what.  If you stream with Roon, the DSP is there and you just have to learn how to use it wisely. 

Certainly major things like room, hearing critical and first things to look to. And assuming the general presentation is to OP's satisfaction he's inquiring about specific anomalies which with some fine tuning could be taken care of. I keep a wide variety of tuning devices such as footers, different stand configurations, cables, etc on hand for just these occasions. There have been some valid suggestions over the thread, up to OP to make informed decision. Unfortunately, sometimes only direct experience will provide the correct solution, one may make mistakes along the way, this not failure, rather a learning experience.

For my PAP Trio15 Horn1 speakers I did this for that:

1. Swapped in Clarity CSA caps in x-over. IMO, smoother top end w/o losing detail.

2. ICs: Silnote Morpheus Reference Classic II Series.

Both tweaks have raised my already terrific PAP speakers to  magical music makers.

OP

I think you should look into those caps. you mentioned that you have the silver Mundorff. I used that in a DIY build a few years ago, and we notice that it seems to accentuate the highs. we change to non-silvers and shrillness was subdued. unfortunately, the owner wanted the accentuated highs 

Never the less it's still good to see an audiologist to get an audiogram and find out what frequencies you have hearing loss.. sound can now be amplified at certain frequencies much better than in the past.you can still experiment with everything else.enjoy the s3arch

Sometimes, adding a ’warm’ cable acts as a band-aid, a palliative for the HF issues. it might dampen the vibrancy and articulation of the music.  It doesn’t solve the root cause of the distortion.  I did that many years ago.  Moved on.

I was typing very fast earlier.  I stand by my statement but wanted to expand a little.  I've found that harshness in the mid-treble, especially when it sounds more like distortion is often room dependent and does not easily yield to DSP or EQ without also suppressing the treble overall. 

It sounds at first like an equipment problem, you don't hear it until you turn up the volume.  You turn down the treble, distortion is gone but so is the treble! 

It has to do with our ear brain mechanism and time.  Besiddes sitting very close to the speakers you can try using temporary things like blankets or pillows in strategic places to see if that helps.  One area which is usually not treated where  I find hash can live is the floor/wall behind and between the speakers.  Fortunately it's super easy to throw a pillow or two there to test. 

Another solution is to add a Stack Audio Smoothlan @ less than $300 [unless tariffs prevail].  It worked out very well for me.  Room treatment also.

Mundorf caps slipped by me, yes, these could be issue. These can spotlight or accentuate higher freq. is some setups. Jupiter copper foils, Audyn True copper Max, Duelund CAST amongst others may alleviate issue.

Perhaps the simplest and most effective thing would be to add Duelund 0.01uf bypass cap to those Mundorfs. You could be quite surprised by how such a little tweak can alter voicing in such a profound way. In my case needed a bit more air, spaciousness on top, went with the Duelund silver bypass cap, wonderful add! Read the many reviews on these. As for Duelund general house sound, natural, effortless sound quality are in the substantial majority of reviews, and this my experience with a their caps, resistors, wire over many years. Negative reviews are outliers, some other issue in those setups, one can likely find negative reviews on virtually every audio product ever produced. 

The Cardas Clear IC while a very nice cable isn't going to solve this issue, in fact it could exacerbate the issue being a more resolving cable than Duelund.