Help me understand the current amp market

@jyaki:  We too listen LOUD a lot, I'm talking concert-level loud.   Having tried both tube and solid state pre-amps, we now only use tube pre-amps, with solid state amplifier(s).   And, FWIW, we have also resigned ourselves that the best pre/amp synergy (and true experience of "house" sound) is the pre and amp are made by the same company, and preferably both units are at the same rank in the given manufacturer's product line.   

fleshler, thanks for your positive comments about the WestminsterLab Reis. The Sanders Magtech amplifier is superb, especially if high power is required. The Magtech was originally designed for use with electrostatics, given their need for high voltage on the rails (63v), yet it proved excellent for power-hungry speakers and sounded better than the standard model, given its novel regulated power supply. These amplifiers are highly recommended for high-power applications and offer that performance and build quality at an impressively low price.  

For accuracy, Roger Sanders and I were partners in Innersound, a company preceding Sanders Sound Systems. After Innersound, Roger founded SSS and was the sole owner at the time of our last conversation a few years back. 

PS We offer in-home evaluations for parties with a genuine interest in Westminsterlab Rei Class A monos in locals where there is no local dealer. Thanks again.    

@8th-note Power amps that double their power with halving their impedance do NOT have to be hot and heavy. My Class A Westminster Labs REIs are small, 35 lbs., top case runs at room temperature except for the small indented metal screen, goes from 100 watts at 8 ohms to 800 watts at 1 ohm and costs $33,900 a pair. They replaced 125 watt Class A/B voltage regulated tube monoblocks and EAR Class A 70 watt tube amps (after 50 years with only tube amps). ASR recommendations are for inexpensive gear. Amir does not promote the best/better gear which is relatively expensive but not uber expensive like Westminster Labs. 

@zlone I am keeping a tube pre-amp for the added warmth to the REIs which are just plain neutral and pass-through upstream source and component sound. Funny thing, the manufacturer/distributor of the Saunders Magatech who sold the company and is the sole non-Asian distributor for Westminister Labs products is the same Garry Leeds of Hear This.

Frankly, chasing the newest tech pales in comparison to chasing sonics that you subsequently enjoy.  Unlike high tech computers where parts can be interchangeable between manufacturers, high-tech audio deals with proprietary circuit designs and quality parts.  Even proprietary transformers make a significant sonic difference.

That being said, perhaps check out Mola Mola offerings like the Makua preamp, Kaluga mono amps, or the Kula integrated.  After reading this very positive review here, I was surprised at the very deep long resume of experience and expertise of the designer. Cutting edge for sure with great sonics to match.

I’d say there is fair amount of "free riders" - make fancy box, put few Asian parts inside and I give you 100% - someone will hear improvement to their sample music. C’mon, there are amps with huge distortions built on 50 years old tech but people like them.

I have seen pictures of inside of a phono stage by a VERY well known and praised manufacturer. Literally 3x3 inch board in 40" wide case. Costs several kilobucks. For an empty box. Compare to Pass Labs XP - full of parts.

So yes, look who is in charge. Pass, BAT, Denafrips are run by engineers. They literally make gear THEY listen to. Watch out for former big names now owned by a cost-cutting corporate drones putting $5 switching power supplies into $$$$ gear.

Gryphon Diablo 333? I would love to try the Gryphon Diablo 333, but it's a bit out on my price range,
 

@josephp732 You might consider a used Diablo 300. Still a great amp.

That's a pretty broad and tough question. Here's just one man's opinion:

Because every human ear is different- the bones in them that vibrate, the size of the chamber, the thickness of skin and bones around the ear- etc. etc. your listening experience will be different than the next guys even in the same room with the same gear. 

That being said - for me anyway, I like established brands that have decades of R&D, proven history of high quality, and committed engineers and staff as my starting point. ARC, Bryston, Luxman, Manley, Pass and the like have a hard won lineage vs. "the latest thing".  Fine audio is not like women's fashion. It must endure for a very long time and perform flawlessly and in a pleasing way. 

Brick and mortar stores are almost gone. So you should join an audio club- listen to enthusiasts rigs and decide what makes you happy. As questions, and have fun with the search. 

The better retailers will ship you a unit on approval. If you don't like it send it back.  

you're getting recommendations from Benchmark, Pass Labs, & SET amps...wildly different sounds...you would need to define better. 

Benchmark is a technical winner for example...but you may find the sound lean or not organic compared to higher distortion amps that subjectively sound great...like Pass Labs 

Take a serious look at the Boulder 866.  I had been a tube guy for over 40 years but the Boulder 866 is really good 

Current SOTA, sorta....

Expensive and confusing, equipment match concerns, differences in 'what's in the box?' or not.....

Happy to be 'sorta sota' (lower case is appropo....) and happy to listen v. 'getting all clinical 'bout it'....

I don't listen to hear the wires....👍😎

Boy, that Luxman sounds like a keeper to me.  I would be inclined to try some speaker choices.  Fritz has bookshelf/stand mounted speakers that are reasonably priced and easy to drive.  I saw a used pair for about $2300. 

Atmosphere is selling a new Class D hybrid that gets good press. 

My opinion is tubes are a pain.  Hot, unpredictable and expensive.  But, I have a feeling they would sound good in my system. 

I am a Pass XA 25 owner and wont be changing amps.  Good luck.

@josephp732 thanks for the link and good luck with your new system!

@macg19 T+A equipment is always built like a tank. I had a PA 3000 HV that I sold when I was down sizing to a condo (Threw my back out re-boxing that amp). That’s when I went with the Luxman L-509x. I do love the Luxman but miss the warmth and massive headroom. Now I am building a new listening room in a new home, hence me really looking hard at the PA 3100 HV. I also have T+A CRITERION TCD 110 S speakers, that I had put into storage, that I will be using in my new reference system. There was a review of the Luxman that briefly compares it to the T+A:  Luxman L-509X Integrated Amplifier (soundstageultra.com)

@josephp732 I just acquired a T+A PA 3100 HV after plowing through 4 INT amps in 2 years (3 tube, last one was a BAT VK3500 hybrid).

I no longer yearn for anything sonically. It is warm like a tube amp but also very detailed with superb channel separation and seemingly unlimited headroom.

It is a beast though, you could hurt yourself installing it if you are not careful!

Yes, I do like to crank it up a lot, especially when I'm listening to electronic music. I often hear people getting tube preamplifiers with their solid state amplifiers, but do you think that will work with the type of music I like to listen to?

Tubes will give you a warmer sound and add some depth to the soundstage, but based on your listening preferences my gut says to stay with a solid state preamp. Tube preamp owners chime in if you have other opinions, I have only dabbled in that space.

One of the most important things to consider about an amplifier is the impedance and sensitivity demands of your speakers. If you are running a pair of Wilsons or larger Thiels, for example, you need a high powered amplifier that doubles its output with each halving of the impedance. This would cut down your options by 90% or more. Very few amps do this and the ones that do are all heavy, expensive solid state monsters. Modern examples are from Pass, Krell, and Gryphon.

On the other hand if you run (or expect to run) a pair of high sensitivity horn speakers then a lower wattage tube amp, perhaps with SET design, would be a logical choice. An 8 watt tube amp is not better or worse than a 400 watt solid state amp - they are made to drive different types of speakers.

Regarding technology and design the big thing now is Class D. These amps have improved dramatically and some models are now the lowest noise amps ever made.

I realize that I'm going to get whacked for saying this but a good place to get information about the root of your question is Audio Science Review (let the deluge of hate begin). Amir does some of the most thorough testing of audio components of anyone out there and he distinguishes well engineered gear from gear that isn't as well designed. We can argue all day about whether ASR's measurements correlate to sound quality but I am personally interested in how a product measures and how well it performs its intended function.

Speaking from my perspective as an audiophile geezer, I don't see very much that is truly novel in the audio world. 90% of the progress is the refinement if old technologies using better parts, exotic materials, smart electronics, and improved manufacturing techniques. Once in a while something comes along like Class D but mostly manufacturers are tweaking old designs and making up new marketing stories to differentiate their products.

Pilium, for example, is getting a lot of buzz, but the CEO is an ex gym owner that’s an audio enthusiast and not an electrical engineer.

I feel the same way with DACs. Companies charging 6k to add an optional DAC module into an already overpriced integrated. I look for DAC designers with some digital pedigree.

With respect to amps, I have owned the Benchmark AHB2 multiple times. I loved the amps for the most part, except with hard to drive speakers. The AHB2 uses a switch mode PS, and uses a forward correction process to achieve the great sound and incredible measurements. In terms of innovation it is up there.

The new GAN Class D amps are my favorite Class D amps. I had a very innovated amp from PeachTree, the GAN1, which is an all in one but only has a SPDIF input and no volume control. Now that takes some out of box thinking to make it work. Out of the box the GAN1 is very good and after some mods by tweakaudio.com it became great. I have my sitting in my office and need to getting it back up for my headphones but I need to get a SPDIF streamer first.

AGD seems to be the leader of the pack when it comes to GAN, with the designer having a long history with GAN tech.

My current amps are the CODA #16 which has a long history starting with Threshold and CODA and PASS Labs originating from that. My CODA #16 is the cumulation of a few decades of work and sounds incredible with tremendous power. I replaced my Benchmark AHB2 with the #16 because the CODA could drive my hard to drive speakers with ease.

The other amp I use is the Sanders Magtech which really sounds great for Class AB, specifically with Magnepan speakers. It has a unique power supply which I think must be its secret sauce. It was built for Sanders by CODA.

KRELL DUO XD and Westminster Labs are creating Class A using a biasing approach that had traditional Class A amp manufacturers twisting their panties into knots. There was a post on the Gryphon web site saying why this biasing Class A is not the TRUE macho heat producing Class A. I laughed at that since I owned a new KRELL DUO XD amp and it sounded great. I sold it to raise cash. KRELL is supposedly coming out with a trickle down amp in June 2024 from the flagship KSA i400. I want to hear that one.

I’d also look at Hegel. They are very capable and really shine with bass. 

@jyaki Accuphase E-5000 or Gryphon Diablo 333? I would love to try the Gryphon Diablo 333, but it's a bit out on my price range, and being new I haven't seen it yet on the used market. "I think", and don't everyone jump all over me, that the Accuphase line in genal is a bit over priced and though the E-5000 is an awesome piece your staying with a Japanese build house sound philosophy. As a very general statement, my opinion is, that Accuphase, Luxman, Yamaha maybe Esoteric are competing against each other for a similar customer segment. Staying Class A and A/B, I don't see a lot of cross shopping between the Japanese brands and brands such as Hegel, Pass Labs and such.    

Like several others have said, it’s going to take a fair amount of research to find separates that are as good or better than your Luxman. It is so sad there are so few hometown dealers anymore.  
On a personal note, I’ve been wanting to hear some Sonus Farber speakers.  There is no dealer, who has any of the four models I’m interested in within 250 miles of me.

All the best.

@zlone Yes, I do like to crank it up a lot, especially when I'm listening to electronic music. I often hear people getting tube preamplifiers with their solid state amplifiers, but do you think that will work with the type of music I like to listen to?

@rmdmoore Thanks for the encouragement, perhaps I’ll go check them out!

@toronto416 Maybe once the kids are older I’ll look into getting some proper floor standing speakers. The Wisdom Audio speakers I have are line source with planar magnetic drivers so they’re the most musical architectural in-wall speakers out there. So for now, I have to play with the electronics to satisfy my audiophile itch.

@scott22 I agree!

@j-wall Yes, I’m still curious as well. I was recently watching The Absolute Sound’s High End Munich audio show report on YouTube and saw an amp brand that I’ve never heard of before. The internals were absolutely gorgeous and looked extremely well-made. I would think that all amps in this price bracket should look like this, with large bus bars and impeccably clean organization. I’d love to learn more about the details of how each brand manufactures their amplifiers. Here’s the link to the YouTube video if you’re curious.

I agree with @glennewdick that it will take a significant upgrade to best that integrated, very nice! If you like to play really loud, you might see some limitations with the power amp section and may want to look for an amp that doubles its wattage into four ohms. It also has inputs that would allow you to bypass the preamp section, so you could try some different preamps to see what you like. 
 

Given your ample budget, it would be well worth your time to visit some showrooms and hear some other brands, something might really catch your ear. I share the the same hesitance about wasting their time, but you are not, and they are used to it. 

I wish more people answered the original question because I'm also very curious of the varying topologies of amplifiers and learning more about the actual differences versus marketing approaches. 

I love my Benchmark AHB2 monoblocks. You'll never get a hernia lifting them either!

Aren't you glad you asked?

As an observer and member, I am always impressed with the help others are willing to give fellow audio mates. it is just a simple small example of "the better of our being." Human kindness in all forms uplifts us all. 

Two Nad c268's bridged for 300 watts per channel is serving me quite well. I bought them for when I need more power, despite already owning both a sugden and accuphase integrated. For "lower tier" amps, they sound terrific. Class D was never really on my radar, but these amps sound warm and musical to my ears. 

The Luxman L-509x is a hugely capable amp (I have a 509u now in a second system).  

I am not familiar with Wisdom Audio speakers, but having in-wall speakers could be the weakest part of your system.  

Maybe you should be looking for speakers at the same level as your Luxman amp?

@ghdprentice 

You need to think first about tube vs solid state… although some solid state, like the Pass XA series are very warm and tube like and visa versa Rogue.

Brands you should consider first and foremost are Pass (solid state) and Audio Research (tubed). Others, solid state: MacIntosh (tubed or solid state, heavy with midrange and bass… light on detail, look cool), Luxman (heavy on treble and bass… so detailed ( shy on midrange a consequently not musical), Krell (warm) Tubed: Conrad Johnson, VAC, Cary (really warm and musical).

Obviously there are others. Also lower tier NAD and Rotel.

I would read a lot and audition a couple key brands. They have house sounds… so in general they have the same kind of sound with gradual improvements over time… so listening to a current MacIntosh and Pass will give you a good idea of what you are in for with the brand.

Nice amp character summary, I am saving it for future reference! Possibly worthy of it’s own thread.

@jyaki I think if you have audio stores near you that should be part of your decision making process. Being able to go in and listen will help so much with helping you decide on preferences. Don't feel bad about "wasting time". Salespeople in these stores know that part of the decision making process is listening and that its unlikely you're going to buy that day and that its likely you're looking at other products. Thats just part of the gig. 

@josephp732 Have you thought about Accuphase E-5000 or Gryphon Diablo 333?

@soix I agree, this hobby is tough. It seems like you have to somewhat take a leap of faith and hope it sounds good in your system

@grislybutter I do have some high-end audio stores around me, but I feel a bit guilty if I take up a lot of their time and don't end up purchasing from them. So far, most of my contact with audio gear has been through visiting shows like AXPONA and other local events

I have a Luxman L-509X and find it to be an excellent integrated. For me the next serious upgrade would be to some thing like a T+A PA3100HV. I am consider the one listed here on Audiogon for $7k (a bargain considering it sells for ~$25k new), it's a 220/240V version - which shouldn't really be an issue to wire up with two hot 120V wires, the ground wire and a NEMA 6-20 receptacle. 

I have a pair of the new Fosi V3 Monos in house for evaluation.

These things are pretty killer.  I have (2) of the 10A power supplies, one on each amp. 

I did replace the factory opamps with the dual discrete Sparko Labs SS3602.

I agree that these are going to compete against much higher priced amps.

Sweetness in spades so far...

Benchmark AHB2 is the "benchmark" these days for SS amp performance.  Many other good quality amps at all price points, but, if in doubt and in-budget, safe to start there.  Just google search it and you will see.

yes, for the type of music you listed, SS seems to be the way to go. You have a good budget, do you have audio dealers nearby?

I really do enjoy how my current set up sounds…I primarily listen to Tidal and to pop, electronic and some rap (no jazz or classical). Since this is my first "real" hi-fi set up, I don't have a clear picture as to which direction I want to go.

Given this I’d recommend sticking with what you have until you have time to go listen to other systems to identify what specific improvements you’d like to achieve.  At this point you’re just as likely to shoot yourself in the foot as you are to get significant improvements — in other words, it’d be a total crapshoot unless you can try an amp in your system at home first.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.

@glennewdick I do enjoy my Luxman 509-X. This whole thing started when I was thinking about upgrading to the 509-Z. Then I started thinking maybe I should go separates and get the Luxman C-10X with M-10X amplifier. Then, that led to exploring different amplifier options.

@soix @mikelavigne I really do enjoy how my current set up sounds. The Luxman sounds terrific and adding the Mola Mola Tambaqui made a huge difference. I primarily listen to Tidal and to pop, electronic and some rap (no jazz or classical). Since this is my first "real" hi-fi set up, I don't have a clear picture as to which direction I want to go. I guess I'm enjoying learning about this hobby and wanting to see how I can keep improving things. 

@ghdprentice Thanks for the info. Didn't know about HiFi+, I'll definitely check it out

@grislybutter I'm not opposed to tubes, but I really don't know much about them. I figure that the kind of music I listen to is more aligned with the characteristics of a solid-state amplifier?? 

tu be or not tu be 

That's is the... (Sorry)

I agree with @glennewdick - the Luxman is fantastic. If you want to change it, just pick a direction, geography, technology, brands.

The approach I developed over the last fifty years is to begin by assessing highly reviewed and regarded main stream products. These companies have been in existence for decades and are still top brands because of technological innovation and refinement over decades. Highly reviewed should include reviews from Stereophile, The Absolute Sound and HiFi+. These are the best and most respected journals. With professional reviewers you are more likely to get reviews that assess all aspects of the sound qualities and not just a few and to have the reviewer devulge associated equipment and personal values. Over time you will learn about more attributes and choosing well will let you discover new strengths in your purchase instead of finding weaknesses that you did not know about.

Used can be a great way to buy into much better quality and sounding equipment.

You need to think first about tube vs solid state… although some solid state, like the Pass XA series are very warm and tube like and visa versa Rogue.

Brands you should consider first and foremost are Pass (solid state) and Audio Research (tubed). Others, solid state: MacIntosh (tubed or solid state, heavy with midrange and bass… light on detail, look cool), Luxman (heavy on treble and bass… so detailed ( shy on midrange a consequently not musical), Krell (warm) Tubed: Conrad Johnson, VAC, Cary (really warm and musical).

Obviously there are others. Also lower tier NAD and Rotel.

I would read a lot and audition a couple key brands. They have house sounds… so in general they have the same kind of sound with gradual improvements over time… so listening to a current MacIntosh and Pass will give you a good idea of what you are in for with the brand.

My system is actually in my home office and consists of Wisdom Audio L8i in-wall speakers with a Wisdom Audio SCS-2 subwoofer.

the Wisdoms are 91db, 4 ohm. so a medium efficiency speaker. and if your system is in your home office, i’m assuming it is a ’bedroom’ sized room, maybe 15’ x 12’ x 9’? so you don’t need to power a big room.

most amplifiers will be powerful enough to get the job done in that room, so what i would recommend would be to focus on your sonic preferences. do you like a warmer sound? more transparent and neutral? what is your cup of tea? what music is most appealing to you?

reviewing a wide range of amplifier circuit technology is not going to be relevant to your situation. more telling us what you wish was better about your Luxman. as it’s a good amplifier already. and you have a subwoofer taking some of the load. where do you want to go?

What specific improvements are you looking for?

Your Luxman is an excellent integrated, your going to have to spend considerably to get better in separates. 

My system is actually in my home office and consists of Wisdom Audio L8i in-wall speakers with a Wisdom Audio SCS-2 subwoofer. I'm currently using a Luxman 509-X integrated amp with a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. For speaker wires, I'm using Acrolink DUCC copper cables. I'm looking to upgrade my Luxman to separates or a different integrated amplifier

Here’s the budget amp champion: Fosi V3 Mono with 48 volt power supply.120/240watts@8/4ohms. Over 300 watts@1ohm. Price $280 a pair! Lookout all you manufacturers of Five$$$figure amps!

I would start with Linear Tube Audio whose amps are based on David Berning’s novel ZOTL circuit topology and power supply architecture. Bulletproof, lightweight, extended tube life, and super quiet. Amazing sound quality and not stupid expensive. If your interest is in amps that are doing something different, and doing it well, rather than bling boxes with recycled technology and a great marketing plan LTA are them. 

There are lots of different types of amps and budgets. You might want to narrow your question a little. What are your speakers?

Do you like class a, tubes, digital. You will find people in all different camps.

That’s a very broad question, can you tell us a bit more about your system, listening space size, budget and music preferences? From there I think we could help narrow down the types of amplifiers that might be a good fit.