I’ve found, to my dismay, that it’s very difficult for me to listen to music for the music itself these days. Since I got into this audiophile game many years ago, little by little my musical appreciation has eroded to the point that I find it very hard to comprehend the music itself if it doesn’t sound good. Too often I’m listening for sonic delights rather than the message the composer is trying to convey. I find myself going from composition to composition looking for audio niceties. When something sounds good I can then begin to get into what the composer is saying.
As a former musician, this would have been unthinkable years ago. Music was everything to me.
Why is it my best stereo? First because it sounds pretty good. But more importantly because I NEVER think about anything but the music. Even my audiophile OCD does not get in the way. Amazing!
What is going on here? I have yet to fully figure it out. But some thoughts:
1) Near field listening.
2) Simplicity of TEAC2025 amplifier IC and full range single driver. While I can not remove the grills, the photo on the box shows a single 2 1/2" paper driver.
3) The combination of watching on YouTube while listening to music at the same time.
4) Small effort, both physically and sonically, invested into listening.
Listening to my main stereo demands a lot from me sonically. At first, the thought of turning it on is "Uugghhh I don’t want to bother with all the effort". Once it’s on and I make the adjustment it’s okay. But there is something distracting about it that always keeps me in "analysis mode".
I appreciate your comments.
Fortunately, I’ve mostly recovered from my long bout with audiophilia. I am able to get into the music now, and still love my system.
The route getting there was a little different than I originally anticipated.
My first thought was to ignore the sound altogether. Just listen to and enjoy the music. That worked up until a point. But, here I had this magnificent machine at my disposal. How could I ignore it.
So, somehow I was actually able to get into the music THROUGH THE SOUND.. I know this sounds implausible based on all our discussions, but it actually happened. The physical sound is an aesthetic in itself. Why not enjoy it!
The result is that I’ve gone back to listening with new ears, not sacrificing the music for the sound and visa versa.
As far as the Benchmark equipment, it synergises with my tubey vintage Conrad-Johnson preamp (recapped by CJ) ideally so that I have the best of both worlds: incredible accuracy and sweet sound.
I tend to agree with you that physical media probably sounds better than streaming (and I have tons of it) but, trying not to be compulsive about the sound, I don’t care. It sounds so good I don’t miss that 1% difference. And, of course, it’s more convenient AND you have the whole word of recorded music at your disposal.
@rvpiano I’ve experienced exactly what you’re describing. The first time I hit the wall I stopped listening to my system for several years. I had a very musically engaging system with B&W N803 speakers, Audio Research CD3 player, ARC LS-25 tube preamp and Pass Labs X250.5 amp. I then “upgraded” to Dynaudio speakers, sold the ARC components and went DAC direct to amp with Mac Mini as a source with my entire CD library ripped to it an external drive. And few months in I reached the point you’re at now. It was all about listening to how the system sounds and listening to and purely appreciating music became difficult. I took a long break and when I came back to listening I figured out what the issue was. I changed the speakers, DAC, got the separates again and began the journey of getting it all back on track.
My recommendation would be to first take a break and then reassess your components. Looking at your system with the Benchmark DAC and amp, that could be a potential starting point. I owned a few Benchmark DACs (DAC 3 HGC was the last one) over time and found the Benchmark house sound to be geared more towards honest albeit cold and analytical presentation. It’s going to show you what’s on the recording but won’t engage you emotionally. Never heard their amps but I’m pretty sure they adhere to the same principles.
Another potential issue is streaming. This is a controversial topic and I’m expecting others to jump in and tell me that I’m wrong, but comparing streaming to physical media when we’re talking low end to mid-fi at best streaming components, you’ll not be getting the level of musicality and engagement you can get into by spinning vinyl and CDs. Not saying streaming sounds bad, it’s just not going to compete with similarly priced CD player or transport in this category.
There are many good DACs out there that will beat the Benchmark in the same price range. Streaming is super convenient and gives you access to amazing music library but it is a sonic compromise. My $0.02.
@rvpiano, Stagnation in discovery of new artists/music can lead to the above mentioned. The thrill of new music discovery tends to save me from all the cons of audiophilia OCD.
About this matter and in a nmore neurological way there is a writer that can be mentioned , if we think about awareness direction and attention modes , as related to two complemented but competing polarities of the brain as with the left and right hemispheres ... One part directed toward details and the other directed toward the wholeness of a situation etc ,,, The books of Iain McGilchrist are very interesting ...
Anyway thanks for these interesting posts hilde45 ...
Especially important sentence for any audio thread:
The ideal of “the absolute sound” is, in a sense, promising something it cannot deliver — a feeling which is generated by the meanings of music. In this sense, sonic equipment is like every other marketer’s genie — offering salvation but only delivering enslavement.
Beyond technology, I think we need to consider the psychological, even the psychoanalytic. Why? Because the OP understands that he wants to enjoy the music. The question becomes, for me, how have we gotten so wrapped up in the creation of simulation?
In part, it's the obsession is with continued advances in technology, ones that induce people to believe these advances will make the simulation indistinguishable from reality. And with the advance of virtual reality and now mixed reality, it's really immersive.
The challenge raised by the OP, is how to switch modes in how we listen -- to distinguish when to be critical and when to just listen. This is an internal, psychological challenge. An analogy for me is with food. At 59, I’m still working out how form a proper relationship with food. Food presents a much larger challenge because food (unlike sound) is tied up with family/relationship feelings which, I think, reaches deeper into my sense of self and security. Food presents itself as “comfort” when it should be perceived as “nourishment.”
The ideal of “the absolute sound” is, in a sense, promising something it cannot deliver — a feeling which is generated by the meanings of music. In this sense, sonic equipment is like every other marketer’s genie — offering salvation but only delivering enslavement.
My opinion as i stated it about the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold condition and his acoustics factors is too abstract but is related to the concrete phenomena hilde45 described well about human intention and attention ...
Then, when I listen to my main system, I’m somehow expecting better than I perceive it to be and I’m back in hyper-critical mode once more. It’s frustrating.
There’s a phenomenon called the "uncanny valley." It was invented, originally about robots, but I think it applies here. With robots (via Wikipedia):
"as the appearance of a robot is made more human, some observers’ emotional response to the robot becomes increasingly positive and empathetic, until it reaches a point beyond which the response quickly becomes strong revulsion. However, as the robot’s appearance continues to become less distinguishable from a human being, the emotional response becomes positive once again and approaches human-to-human empathy levels."
I suspect this is happening with music, as relayed in these posts.
Music goes from being very unlike live music (e.g. crude but lovable) to being close but not close enough (e.g. in expensive or elaborate systems).
When music reproduction is "close to live music but conspicuously lacking" our attention is fixated upon the sound, on the sonic flaws. And that distracts from the music. It would be like reading a text in an elaborate font. You can tell what it says, but the font is so distracting you wind up fixating on the letters.
If this description applies to your musical experiences, then the goal is to find the "good enough" rig, which many seem to be pointing to, here. This would include "good enough" room acoustics.
In short, you need to stay out of the "uncanny valley" of sound. Just before it, I’d say.
Then, when I listen to my main system, I’m somehow expecting better than I perceive it to be and I’m back in hyper-critical mode once more. It’s frustrating.
There’s a phenomenon called the "uncanny valley." It was invented, originally about robots, but I think it applies here. With robots (via Wikipedia):
"as the appearance of a robot is made more human, some observers’ emotional response to the robot becomes increasingly positive and empathetic, until it reaches a point beyond which the response quickly becomes strong revulsion. However, as the robot’s appearance continues to become less distinguishable from a human being, the emotional response becomes positive once again and approaches human-to-human empathy levels."
I suspect this is happening with music, as relayed in these posts.
Music goes from being very unlike live music (e.g. crude but lovable) to being close but not close enough (e.g. in expensive or elaborate systems).
When music reproduction is "close to live music but conspicuously lacking" our attention is fixated upon the sound, on the sonic flaws. And that distracts from the music. It would be like reading a text in an elaborate font. You can tell what it says, but the font is so distracting you wind up fixating on the letters.
If this description applies to your musical experiences, then the goal is to find the "good enough" rig, which many seem to be pointing to, here. This would include "good enough" room acoustics.
In short, you need to stay out of the "uncanny valley" of sound. Just before it, I'd say.
Diversify Your Listening: Explore a wide range of genres, artists, and musical styles. This can help break the pattern of focusing solely on sonic qualities and allow you to appreciate the diversity of musical expression.
Live Performances: Attend live performances or listen to live recordings. The immediacy and authenticity of a live experience can often bring back the emotional connection to the music.
Purposeful Listening: Set aside dedicated time for critical listening where your primary focus is on the musical content rather than the audio quality. Choose recordings that are known for their artistic merit rather than just their sonic qualities.
Balanced Approach: Strike a balance between enjoying high-quality audio reproduction and appreciating the intrinsic value of the music. It's possible to have both a great sound system and a deep appreciation for the artistic message of the music.
Mindfulness: Be mindful of your listening habits. If you catch yourself solely focusing on the audio nuances, consciously redirect your attention to the musical elements and emotional content.
ebxya.com
I feel and think I've hit my personal 'ceiling' (prior to an all-out 'face plant' *L*) on audio accouterments beyond my diy driver diddling.....*waves white flag with odd glyph*....
I can listen to nearly anything I care to and enjoy how it's being rendered by the choice of what I have to render it.
I've established a personal 'baseline' of the means to do so in the equipment at hand; the cables, the ic's, the various 'n sundry....
Not SOTA, by any means, but 'SORTA'....i.e., enough.
I could and can mess with room acoustics, the eq, the occasional swap of one item for another when the muse rises from coma and demands a trigger-pull on X to replace Z....and leaving Y untouched...(pun intended)....
Case in pointless...
If I can listen to 417hz monk 'ohms', segue into The Prodigy live in Moscow, chill with some AON for awhile.....and sleep soundly and soundless.....(I don't dream much, and they're usually sans soundtrack anyway....)
I'm good.*S*
I'll just kibitz at the clan....
Spouse and self are looking forward to an entire Thanksgiving week to ourselves; the employs asked to have the entire following week off...on their own dime, except for the normal holidaze pay....
I'm playing the back nine at this point in my life and of coarse my upper frequency are rolling off with my hearing So I went with a different approach with my stereo rig My main speakers have built in powered subs and I also have two SVS Ultra 13subs with the upgraded plate amps I mostly stream Qobuz and everything is dialed in from my listening chair. The subs are either side of my Tower speakers So I'm having close to a bass array Anyway when I listen to my music now being so full range and dynamic, I can't get the smile off my face!
The problem is not listening to the sound as such , the problem is the fetichist misplaced idea that the sound balance or unbalanced experience comes from each gear pieces , then criticizing a component as being in need to be upgrade at higher cost ... Most of the times the upgrade is not needed...
The balance and unbalanced experience very often dont come from a lack of synergy between parts , which is possible for sure and not rare , but result from a not well embedded system in the room ...
i listen the sound from my system always but i hear always music not sound ...Because all parts are synergetical and well embedded together electrically , mechanically and especially acoustically ... Then if listening is a conscious act, hearing is not a conscious act at all , anyway the more i consciously intend to listen the sound , the more i hear the music and nothing else which is called immersiveness experience ...
Why ? because in a balanced system the sound dont exist out of the music and serve it ... In an unbalanced system some frequencies range , some lack in the transients, some absence of dynamic or some excess ,etc, impose the same sound haunting ghost which hide the recording trade-off choices of any album nevermind the musical choices ...
My solution to that is to focus on lyrics. Their meaning and the way the vocals and music deliver it. Let the music speak to your feelings about the words you hear.
Audiophilia tends to have us listen to the " sound " of our systems. This tends to be more popular than not. IME, systems are designed to allow you to hear the music. The musicianship.....the composition....is it a studio recording, or a live recording ? If you cannot / do not hear / follow the musicianship / the composition, you have the wrong components ( synergy ), the wrong mindset ( mood ), or need a stimulant, such as a gummie / drink, etc. ymmv. My best. MrD.
The truth (for me) is good equipment can be had for not a whole lot of money.
Buying used can get you there too. The trick is once you get that system in place stay with it long enough to appreciate the sound and the music.
I recently noticed an add for a $100,000 DAC? That is what I paid for my house 35 years ago. Of course I still read reviews but I try not to lust after the "next thing".
If it all becomes too complicated and overwhelming, things (music appreciation) tend to get lost. Take a break from the cycle and when you come back, the music can and will sound fresh again.
For me the most important is not the bass lackings at 50 hertz it is the balance between bass and the other range ... I dont feel a sub is need at all ... Anyway it will be costlier and complex to set it really right in a balanced way ... I hate boominess ...
I listen great organ bass on my headphone anyway ... Most jazz and classical tuba included sound great on my 4 inches woofer with my redesigned porthole though ... Without the redesign porthole it is not balanced nor deep enough at 80 hertz ...
For me it ends when mechanical,electrical and acoustical embeddings are done right , nevermind the gear choices if synergy exist between them ...Price tag dont matter for me ...Acoustics rule ...
Now only music exist ...Sounds being is living walking materialized manifested temporary egregora with and through my system/room ...
Similarly, with my Joseph Audio Pulsars, the 5" woofers don’t produce the lowest bass but, depending on the source material, I don’t usually miss it. The Pulsars replace my Aerial Acoustics 10-T’s which actually tended toward too much bass in my 15.5’ x 23’ room so, overall, I’m happier with the Pulsars. I think with some modest room treatments I will finally be happy or.......wonder if I should add a subwoofer.
Similarly, with my Joseph Audio Pulsars, the 5" woofers don't produce the lowest bass but, depending on the source material, I don't usually miss it. The Pulsars replace my Aerial Acoustics 10-T's which actually tended toward too much bass in my 15.5' x 23' room so, overall, I'm happier with the Pulsars. I think with some modest room treatments I will finally be happy or.......wonder if I should add a subwoofer.
RV in exchange for your recommendation for Mussorgsky's Pictures (in another thread) I offer you Kantorow's version of Rachmaninoff's PC #1 on BIS. Of my 8 other versions this fits me best, sonically and musically. I highly recommend it to you. I had a fun couple of hours listening to all of these.
I underline the key element that create the problem :
Then, when I listen to my main system, I’m somehow expecting better than I perceive it to be and I’m back in hyper-critical mode once more. It’s frustrating.
Acoustics is God in audio ...
We expect something that it is not there because we perceive a lack or an excess from an unbalanced system/room ..
A simple example :
Why i did not perceive as a frustrating lack of bass from my 4 inches woofer which goes 50 hertz and not twenty ?
My top headphone goes near 20 hertz...😁
The reason i live well without frustration nor need for a sub woofer even if 50 hertz is not 20 , it is because the speakers/ room are balanced expressing each acoustic factors optimally relatively to one another ...I know i lack bass but it does not bother me at all because all is well balanced ... Acoustics rules and mechanical and electrical embeddings done right rules with it ...
Whenever I visit my brother and we retreat to his basement lair to enjoy a few fine intoxicants, I'm always struck by how much I enjoy the music. It doesn't seem to matter that it's played through a cheap Sherwood AV receiver and a $200 pair of haphazardly aimed Athena towers; the left of which is shoved into one corner with a candle and nik-naks on top.
I get a similar effect listening to CD's on my Arcam Solo and Andrew Jones Pioneers out in my garage shop. It seems as if I give the music a little more respect for sounding better than I think should be possible.
Then, when I listen to my main system, I'm somehow expecting better than I perceive it to be and I'm back in hyper-critical mode once more. It's frustrating.
I suffered the same manic obsession because i was hating my old system...
The problem is not in the developping of the analytical side of the brain , the problem is not in our way of hearing ; the problem is that we now know that the sound acoustic factors are not right and are unbalanced ...
The only way i discovered toward the solution was hard, but efficient and low cost ... It was mandatory for me to retrieve musical ectasy and forgotting sound and at the same time appreciating it with the musicians playing ...
Learning how to embed a system mechanically, electrically and acoustically was the solution .... Especially learning acoustics concepts and here i spoke about acoustics in general not room acoustic only ...
Doing so with a low cost system is possible even if a low cost system could reach not the upper most higher level of sound for sure but it can pass over what i called the minimal acoustic satisfaction treshold... This concept does not even exist in audio threads where all is defined by price tags more than by real acoustic concepts by the way ...
How many are able to describe the acoustic concept of immersiveness and his many conditions ? This concept not only exist but with it clearly understoood you can experiment in your room ...
The good news is a very good system can give astonishing acoustic experience under 1000 bucks as mine ; the bad news is that i dont know how to do it in a clean living room at low cost especially ...😁
When you reach "immersiveness" , sound convey music and you listen in heaven without any need to analyse anymore... Timbre is satisfying etc .... You are there in your own way with a synergetical system nevermind the cost...Acoustic laws, mechanical good embeddings controlling vibrations, electrical good noise ratio principles and problems dont change because the system price is higher ...
For example , the porthole of any pair of speakers as mine , which are low cost, or way costlier one will need to be redesigned probably as mine was in need to be redesigned ... The neck of a Helmholtz resonators efficient in a resonant room cannot be a mere hole and his dimension is a ratio where one of the factor is not zero optimally because Helmholtz resonators works with a volume relating to a neck and the neck or multiple necks connected to the volume must be computed or/ and designed by ears mechanically 😁...
No small speakers designer for example will sell a porthole extending on your desk with a bundle of tubes near 2 feet behind with various dimensions for many of them and they will not dare to ask you after creating this horror big money for it ... At best they will design the porthole inside in a bigger speaker box and hidden but instead of the 100 bucks i paid for my 4 inches woofer speakers they will ask for many thousand dollars for the same sound level quality ...I could had spoke about crosstalk mechanical control instead of immersiveness or Helmholtz resonators or i could had spoke about the way the reverberation time in a small room can be used etc ...Read acoustics and forgot useless reviews of hyped products ...
Music is to sound what the beautiful expressing soul gesture of a beautiful woman speaking and walking is to his proportionated balanced body ...
Thank you all for your very compassionate responses.
The problem is I’ve gotten to the point where I enjoy listening to my system so much it’s hard to turn back. I have these “manic” episodes when I relish the sound alone. Like right now I’m appreciating my newish analog setup for the first time and I’m going through a myriad of records comparing their SQ to before I had the new setup. This is pleasurable it itself. And I do get into the music somewhat.
Conversely there are times I realize I’m not really enjoying the music for itself and the listening for sound becomes a negative and shallow pursuit.
I’m not sure if I’m too far gone.
This side of audiophilia can border on OCD tendencies. And that obviously is not a good thing. Good luck to you, music is still the most important thing. The easiest way to get everything to sound better to your ears regardless of the quality of recording is equalizing. I use a Puffin and a Loki Max. That may help in returning to your love of music.
As I age, I always remember I wanted to be a musician and nothing blocks me from appreciate a great music even if it does not sound very well like garage rock.
I now feel necessity to purchase instruments and electronics to practice, create and mix. So moving to more fair and honest industry of the pro-audio
I feel your pain. Since retiring I have chased "the sound" and finally it hit me. I was wasting too much time in the critical listening arena and not enjoying the music. Then one day, on a whim, I tried out an old pair of Klipsch Chorus ll speakers. I hooked them up to my Luxman L-509Z and played the digital file Hotel California from the Eagles’ When Hell Freezes Over album through my Aurender A20. When Don Henley hit the bass drum and I thought he was in the room with me I realized I was done. No more chasing the ultimate sound. I spent untold hours listening to amps, preamps, speakers, DACs, cables, etc. I found my happy place. I had half a million dollars of gear running through my house over the past two-three years, driving my wife nuts. Only thing left is to do some room tweaks and I am done. Or am I? The plot is always moist...
All I do now is swap out the Klipsch with an amazing sounding set of Harbeth SHL5s. The wife helps with that.
Been in this hobby for about 50 years. IME if you put a well balanced audio system together and use quality sources both digital and analogue, you can enjoy the music. The key is balance. A mid priced system that has components of similar cost and ability will sound better than a system that has one very expensive component which will reveal the flaws of the cheaper components.
I think we all go through what the OP described. In my case I retired 2 weeks ago and my first task was to straighten out my listening room(s), which meant organizing a lot of physical media. In the course of doing so I encounter many long unplayed recordings and I’ve been listening uncritically from an audio standpoint and having a great time. I recommend the OP go wading into his vast collection and just play whatever grabs his fancy
@OP Conversely, as a musician and recordist, I have to turn off the engineering and production side of my brain rather than the audiophile side.
I find it helpful to listen to the radio on an average sounding system - with less information, it's easier to focus just on the writer/composer's intentions.
Like the genie in the bottle, once you acquire the skill of critical listening, it’s hard to turn it off.
As ghdprentice described it, is called "technically perfect, musically dead".
So how to tackle your problem of loosing the music?
You have a great system but I would ditch the Benchmark DAC for sure and go NOS. IMHO, that DAC is made for mastering but not so good for listening to music.
I like Golden Ear but listen to some DeVore O/96. See what you think. They emphasize colors in the music, not detail.
If there are soundstaging issues, listen in mono, not stereo. This can be easily done with a "Y" connector.
I find myself going from composition to composition looking for audio niceties
Ask yourself "How many of these songs do I actually like?" Are you expecting the "sonic delights" to make you like a song that you basically do not like?
Do not throw out the baby with the bath water. As you realized, there are some songs that do sound really good on a hi-end stereo.
There is no shame in walking away from this hobby if it is doing more harm than good.
I’m not sure what you mean by “a function of gear.” I think I replaced my passion for music with a passion for sound. Something I never thought possible.
I’ve been a music lover since I was a child.
As a musician, I performed in many concert halls and soloed with orchestras.
I suppose that after I stopped performing I placed my creativity in the building of an exemplary stereo system.
I succeeded so successfully that it became a primary force in my life.
Of course I still love music and can be transported by it, but this audiophilia is powerful.
@rvpianoDude, you need to get into better music. Or get a well-fettled idler and a Decca cartridge, lots of vintage tubes and er, ESLs. I love my system. Didn't cost that much but I prefer it to most everything I've heard at shows and demos. Remember, damping kills the 🎶 music!
Thanks. No, I don’t think high cost is the only way to get there… but for me… I always want upgrades to be better in all aspects while closing in on the sound I want. You can put together a musical system at most levels. It is about the choices you make… and knowing what you want.
Over the decades in this pursuit I would occasionally hear a system that would really grab my emotions. I can think back to seemingly random systems that just stuck in my mind. When I listened to my 300b headphone systtem, then my main system… it all fell together. All those seemingly random experiences just came together and I completely understood rhythm and pace, the out of proportion details, and what those systems had in common.
Take for instance the Audio research I-50 integrated amp. It cost $6K. So building your system around that does not require a fortune. If you don’t mind ferreting, I am sure you could find some less expensive.
I think also that ghdprentice know what he talk about ...
This does not means that a high end costlier system will not be better but the way to put them together matter the most...It is the way i read his post ...
Yep, I had a $70K reference system. If I was mastering albums… it would be great. But for a musical experience… nope.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
