Fine tuning the system. Where do you start and how do you proceed ?

Assuming that you already have your "reference" copy of a recording, my next step would be interconnects and/or speaker cables.

In a perfect world, you'd have a few sets to try/listen to/compare. 

And, for the record, it's not always the most expensive ones that sound best. You have to find what works best for you in YOUR system.

Most important thing for me is make ONE change at a time.  If you are trying to find the optimum speaker placement , focus on that, don't throw other variables into the mix.    

Same with a component change.   One change at a time. 

I don't use a "reference" recording.  I use a number of tracks.   Most are tracks that are deeply imprinted in my brain.    I think it's easier to notice where a recording shines on a system.   I also use genres I don't normally listen to so there's no bias as to what I'm hearing.    

The chase for sound that does not end for sure...But if what you have is the best you have ever had enjoy the sound and slowly upgrade...I was sort of lucky in some ways that I purchased first tube amp from Raven Audio and tried their speakers from cheapest to most expensive,,And was not happy until I had the Corvus speakers .And I have upgraded 3 times on their Amps and now have the Reflection and very happy with all the detail I hear from my equipment ..But yes but I know that there is still more to capture for me to hear... Move the speakers and if using sub move it around..I know my living room is no sound room but mostly I am happy and wife has to be out of house for me to really enjoy my system for just playing 74db she is not a fan of music...That is when I relax with my Tinnitus goes away into the music...I do not play anything other than down streaming and my best sound is Tidal and using Audio Quest Diamond which gave me the best sound I myself could hear out of 4 cables I tried..Enjoy the Hobby and wish you well in achieving your best quality sound...What are you using for your system amp / speakers etc ??

You seem to have no major issue with the current system.  What exactly do you think could be improved.

  My suggestion is to make sure that you have a comfy listening seat, and adult beverage of your choice, and play music with obsessing about what small differences in sound are possible 

Good suggestion....

1. Keep it simple. look to simplify your system, not complicate it. I like to keep the signal path as simple as possible so I don’t add components. avoid widgets that promise magical improvement. Use good compaonent and good materials. I upgrade wires (not cables) and connectors more than components.

2. Don’t make changes based on reviews and recommendations. Follow the money and you realize that some very compelling words are written to sell you things. Make changes because you understand what you are trying to do and you think the new component will do it. Don’t try to solve problems that don’t exist just because a dealer or a reviewer suggests it.  You may have to do weeks or months of research to understand a change you are considering.

3. Tube rolling is fun and can be fruitful. However, don’t expect miracles. there is a good chance the tubes that are in it are there for a good reason. I just spent several hundred dollars trying different driver tubes and decided to stick with the ones in it, although a different pair of the same tubes. I am still searching for a special variety of this tube. I don’t consider this wasted money. then next pair of tubes, the output tubes, can be several thousand dollars to do tube rolling.

4. Crossovers. most speakers have crossovers that use poor components compared to the price of the speaker. upgrading your crossovers is a fertile ground. I’ve had very positive results. Again keep it simple. Not a beginner DIY project. You’ll need a friend who understands electronics as it isn’t as simple as choosing better components of the same values.

5.Patience. from your posts I don’t think that this is your greatest virtue. Move slowly, do lots of reading, make your own decisions. when you do make a decision, sleep on it and be self critical before making a change.

Jerry

Start by assessing what you like about the sound you are getting and what improvements you want.  Keep in mind that anything that you do, if it is at all effective, alters the sound and that can be for better or worse.  Be prepared to accept that something you do might have to undone.  I am amazed at how many threads talking about power cords, interconnects and tweaks have very little comment about changes that were detrimental when there should be a lot more instances where a change in sound went the wrong way.  It helps to be more open minded about one’s own purchases.  
 

With tube gear, I would start with trying different tubes based on commonly shared experiences reported about tubes.  Some tubes are warmer sounding, or more dynamic and detailed sounding, etc.  I would start with the cheaper tubes, which tend to small signal input and driver tubes.  Even though they can be much more expensive, consider vintage tubes—many are much better than current production.

Interconnects and speaker cables would be next for me; they tend to make a bigger difference than power cords.  But, if you are using the cords that came with the gear, junk that and go with something a little better before searching for the ultimate set of power cords.  You will hear differences between very good chords, but that difference is comparatively subtle and more evident when you have dialed in the rest of your system.

Vibration damping/control via specialized racks, equipment footers, etc. can have substantial impact on sound and I personally find it is easy to overdo this and end up going the wrong way.  Sometimes you don’t even know you goofed until you pull all the stuff out and find out that you now like your system more.

I roll tubes I've rolled cables a little bit of isolation and things sound pretty good here. It's really about trying things and then living with them. Don't jump to immediate conclusions I usually take at least a month to get my head around changes and it becomes more of a vibe thing can I relax into the music or not.

First, the room makes by far the most significant contribution to sound quality (with exception of near field and headphone listening). so discounting room is the a first order mistake.

Second, I listen to music not test records. A good system makes an average record sound good. There is much more variation amongst recordings than there is between system tweaks. So I don't sweat it too much, listen to more music.

I got Paul McGowan's book and test CD. The problem is that the bass test track is played horribly out of tune, so just painful to listen to. And then the phase track did not do anything only to learn that it does not matter in many situations/to many listeners. Total waste of money and time. I learned my lesson and ignore test tracks.

The room, setup, and placement are huge factors. Assuming the gear is good, and cables aren’t the weak link, speaker placement is typically low hanging fruit. I tend to use the music I listen to most as my reference, at least the ones that are decent recordings. Some recordings have more bass, some less, so it’s good to find a happy medium with the stuff you listen to most often.

Isolation of your gear is another subtle way to optimize things, and squeeze a bit more refinement....TT, amps/pre, speakers. TT and preamp are on sorbothane feet. speakers are on isolation spring pucks, amps are on rubber/cork feet.

I tend to use tube rolling and cable changes for final tweaks to dial in the sound I want. There are really no hard fast rules....it’s very subjective, and very unique to your setup, so you have to experiment a bit.

Once I was pretty happy with the overall balance, presentation, and synergy is about the time I started upgrading power supplies and opamps in my DAC and phono stage for a bit more refinement.  Wall warts got replaced with linear regulated power supplies.

Do it step by step, one at a time - that's an excellent advice.

Looking for best pressings is an almost never ending process, but before that you have to find out what the best pressings are. Sometimes it's difficult to know before actually comparing. But this can make very big differences.

My turntable is on a thick maple block which in turn is on the floor. There are big Boston Audio graphite tune blocks under the maple platform. Seems to work fine. Integrated tube amp is also on a thick maple block which is on the floor with Audiopoints brass cones under it. Two tape decks and PS Audio regenerator are on the rack. The Salamander rack is no good but since both the turntable and amp are on the floor, I see no reason to replace it.

Tubes in the amp are excellent, all NOS Mullards and RCAs. I do have to replace tubes for the phono, probably with Mullards or RCAs but might try Raytheon black plates.

Cables are more than adequate, and Nottingham Spacearm's cable goes from the cartridge right into the onboard phono stage amp, no need for separate tonearm cable or interconnects. The table has Boston Audio graphite mat instead of stock.

So, I am not sure what I might want to do in terms of fine tuning. Perhaps some feet under the amp.

Speakers are placed as well as they could be in the room, and most of the listening is close to near field listening.

Fine tuning for me is not necessarily linear path, always about determining the weakest link. Not being afraid to experiment and fail is required, weakest links may not always be obvious. In the end everything matters, sometimes the smallest changes can make all the difference, tuning is an art rather than science.

Tuning is an art indeed.

Leaving wall current alone - it’s a separate big problem. Leaving the room alone too.

Do you begin by seeking out best LP pressings ? Or tube rolling ? Or cables and power cords comparisons ? Isolation devices perhaps ? Something else ?

How do you go about it ?

I tend to start from the beginning - LP pressings.

I have never felt "wall current" or power issues to be a limiting factor, at least where I reside. Room issues are mitigated by my choice of speakers (Tannoy), "mid-field" setup, and light treatment of 1st reflections. Positioning is key.

I obsessed over tubes for a while and have a ton, but it’s not as big a deal to me now. Choosing the right power tube for the amp can be important.

For cables - speaker cables, specifically its silver content, has had the most effect. I like some good solid silver on this link. Large gauge. It definitely sounds different from copper. Unfortunately, it has become prohibitively expensive in modern cables. I buy used.

The biggest issues are: 1. choosing your transducers, and 2. matching your components and transducers to each other. Call this "synergy" or whatever. This is the biggest factor in getting a system to sound good, for me. At this point, I have collected several of every kind of component. The sonic differences by each component (and combination) are very noticeable, and "portable" even to different systems / rooms. 

For recordings - no I’m not going out of my way to seek special recordings. I have some, and they’re great, but are not available for most material. Perhaps 50 - 70% of my vinyl collection sounds "really good" to "great" as is. And I’m grateful for that. Digital has a lower % than this, but there are some bangers in there too.

Beware chasing details.

I would say if you are a tinkerer, leave yourself room to tinker without commitment.  That is, if you want to rotate 2 or 3 different speakers or a couple of different amps, then do that! Don't chase absolutes.

It's kind of important to know yourself here.  If you are just always going to be playing with your setup then get yourself organized for that rather than a constant stream of buying.

Otherwise, it's important to understand where you want your system to go.  What have you heard that's _better_ and not just _different?  What did that sound like?

Components, speaker wire, amp power cord, interconnects, power cords, detailed positioning, acoustic treatments, vibration control. 

I strongly agree that source material has a HUGE impact on how a system will sound, and the right "LP pressings" is the source material that offers the most potential for reaching the pinnacle of this hobby.

However, I'd say that using a record to make a system change is less about "fine tuning" and more about discovering that a great sounding copy of a great record and others like it (meaning other extremely high quality pressings of other titles) requires that we build a system that can bring the recordings on that record to life in the most convincing and satisfying way possible.

IOW, once you start playing truly great sounding records (I'm talking vetted, vintage records here, not the so called "audiophile" records that are released these days) you realize that you need to go back to square one and build a system that can actually play those records, because hardly any system can.

Therefore playing the right "LP pressings" is more about system design than it is "fine tuning". You want to start with those records, not finish with them!

I apologize but it is my opinion that there is no definitive starting point but rather process of optimization by experimentation.  I recommend your starting point is listening to acoustic and amplified music and developing your perception on how you believe reproduced music should sound.  Then you should choose recordings you feel are well engineered with clarity, timbral accuracy, dynamics, and bass and treble response.  The next step is to critically listen to your system and determine which SQ attributes you wish to optimize, for this will determine the actions you take to reach your goal.  For example, if you to solidify imaging and or tighten bass with no capital purchases, you would start with speaker placement and room treatment.  If you are hearing high frequency mains distortions like glare you will need to experiment with cords, conditioning or regeneration.  I could go out on a limb and give you a general order of importance- speakers, speaker placement, room treatment, front end (DAC/Steamer or TT/arm/cartridge/phono pre), amplification (pre/power/int), speaker cable, interconnects (including digital) power cords, power conditioning, vibration isolation.  However, listen and set a goal on what SQ attribute you wish to improve.  Use the process I recommend to do this.   Then research in the press solutions or ask specific questions on how to improve that attribute in this forum.  There are many more knowledgeable than I that I am sure will assist at that point. By using a process of establishing a specific goal and achieving that goal you have a greater chance of reaching a point is satisfaction, and not constantly chasing change for the sake of change.  

op you start at looking at the systems weakest link

to maximize your system you need:

a good power conditioner good power cables

vibration isolation 

room tuning 

performance tweaks  

Dave and troy

audio intellect NJ

@inna ...Now digest all of the personally pertinent parts of the above...

And go have fun following your muse... ;)

Tuning and fine tuning with tubes is a great way to improve the sound or simply to make it slightly different. It can be like putting different strings on the same acoustic guitar.

Playing with isolation/resonance control devices could be fun, but I don't have energy and funds to approach it seriously. This would require tremendous work to find the overall best solution.

When doing fine tuning it would be wrong to dissect the sound. This is the final polishing, the sound is already excellent.

The system will only sound as good as the room allows.  Otherwise you are putting Turtle Wax on a car that only has primer and no paint on it.  

Highly recommend you look at BACCH4Mac with room correction... game changer, biggest overall improvement over anything else I have tried.... 

https://www.bing.com/search?q=baach4mac&cvid=5485145f7ca14770a71652ade00b4723&gs_lcrp=EgRlZGdlKgYIABBFGDkyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQABhAMgYIAhAAGEAyBggDEAAYQDIICAQQ6QcY_FXSAQg4NTI4ajBqNKgCALACAQ&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531

It's all fun enjoy it the advantage of big cities is you could borrow or listen to fellow audiophile stuff.i don't have that luxery.our nearest audio store is 3.5 hours away.the cabel company has a loan program I have not tried that yet but maybe soon.

Tuning by source material is problematic IMO. I have never used a small number of reference recordings to tune my system since this not how I listen. I play all manner or recordings, all genres, all qualities over the long term. If there are shortcomings you'll hear them in time, no reason at all to speed up the process, you'll only go in circles with short term listening with a certain number of reference recordings. Having patience and quit always listening with analytical part of brain is key. Enjoy what you have, the small displeasures may expose themselves over time, only then do you make a change. And never forget one change at a time, too many variables will only confuse.

I just posted this on another thread and think it fits here as well.

I’ve been listening, reading, building, selling, swapping and buying hifi since the early seventies and almost every move has been an upgrade, or at least a noticeable change.  I will never stop reading and listening, but other than changing my DAC, I’m really happy with my current setup. And speaking of the DAC, it’s a Pontus ll and I really enjoy the sound of the R2R sound and would love to hear others, but it ain’t as easy as it used to be.

The Room. Absolutely the most important component in a sound system after your ears.

One thing nice about Agoners is the support of properly treating rooms as a significant sonic issue.

1. The room

2. The setup

3. The gear

However, I have found a significant difference in SQ among recordings. So much so that I grade each one D, C, B, A, A+ based solely on sound quality.

 Almost makes a case for the album making the biggest impact on what you hear.

Always get the best recording you can find. If you get a bad recording, chances are you will not listen to it. So it's a waste. Sadly the more revealing the system, the worst bad recording sound.

Yes, get the best recording you can find for the price you want to pay. 

If you can't move the speakers, or change the room, that is 2 huge things that are keeping you from getting the "best" from your system. If this is because of your other half, try plants, rugs, or canvas wall hangings. In my room, all the pictures are deep canvas, this allowed me to put sound insulation in the backs of them. Not as good as the real thing, but way better over nothing. 

If you are stuck there, the only real thing left is equipment, try some cables, power cords, maybe a better cartridge? Then isolation devices, spike your speakers? 

You didn't say if you have a power conditioner, that is good easy thing to get, as well as audiophile power outlets. There are good ones that will not break the bank, and do make a difference. 

Personally I do not like tuning the system with power cords and interconnects. It's a total crap shoot, with a high price of entry. On my system, PC made a difference, but not sure it was worth the cost. 

For me it’s all about listening to the music and not being too analytical, and I’m an engineer.  But tweaking is a fun part of our hobby.

I love the sound of tubes but I don’t trust myself or hype to pick them for my setup.  I have always gone to Brent Jesse at audiotubes.com for his recommendations.  It’s amazing the experience he’s had with a tremendous variety of equipment manufacturers.  He gets lots of customers feedback on the success of his recommendations.  What’s interesting is the best sound in my equipment does not come from “names”.  And the preamp tubes have a much bigger impact than the power tubes, but you already know that.

Just my experience, but I don’t know shit

For me it’s all about listening to the music and not being too analytical, and I’m an engineer. But tweaking is a fun part of our hobby.

I love the sound of tubes but I don’t trust myself or hype to pick them for my setup. I have always gone to Brent Jesse at audiotubes.com for his recommendations. It’s amazing the experience he’s had with a tremendous variety of equipment manufacturers. He gets lots of customers feedback on the success of his recommendations. What’s interesting is the best sound in my equipment does not come from “names”. And the preamp tubes have a much bigger impact than the power tubes, but you already know that.

Just my experience, but I don’t know crap

Agreed about preamp tubes, but driver and power tubes can make a big difference too.

I have to say for me it's the power source. The are some excellent advice here today.

Don't change power cables because doing so well do NOTHING to the sound. It's fake news. And if you've got 12AWG OFC cables, no amount of money can but any cables that will ever sound better, or different. Again, it's all marketing. All of it. Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem. 

@squared80

Ahhh, not true. Power cables can have a very large impact... in particular on power amps. This comes from my extensive experimentation and experience over several years with at least nine different high end power cords and original equipment and also some low end power cords. I did not find low end cords of any value.