Do high dollar mono blocks truly improve the Sound Quality over the mid tier amps

I think you might see a bigger improvement by changing your preamp. You have good amps.

t 

only if the upgrade exceeds 57K

 I've been considering upgrading these amps to the next price/quality level.  My biggest concern is whether I'll get the level of improvement in SQ that will move the needle.

@skinzy 'The next level' has little to do with price just so you know. High end audio isn't driven by price (although many think it is), its driven by intention.

On top of that there's something called the 'Veblen Effect' which causes people to think that if they spend more money they will get more value. Sometimes that's true and sometimes it isn't!

Put another way it sounds like what you really want is something that sounds better. That may or may not be the amps. FWIW, sound quality always starts with the source- get that wrong and nothing you do downstream will sort things out. If the source is right, the preamp is the next step.

Since you are running a balanced power amp, consider this: there is a standard for balanced lines which I've found many high end audio manufacturers seem to ignore. If the standard (AES48) is supported, then you'll find the interconnect cables to not contribute to the sound of the system- they will be far more neutral (which is part of the goal of using balanced lines, other than elimination of ground loops).

A post made in previous threads follows:

"  

I feel like I have left out a recommendation of a Low Powered SS Power Amp' that has thoroughly impressed me during demo's in a variety of Build Models, which I made known recollection of experiences had on this forum.

 The Neurochrome Modul 65 has been in use in my Local HiFi Club as a SS Amp' demonstrator for quite a few years. This Amp' had been used in comparisons to both Valve Power Amp's - Valve Integrated Amp's and the same in SS.

It has been used driving Quad ESL's both Vintage and Modern, as well as much kinder loads for a Speaker.

Where it really showed it strengths, was at a time when it proved quite difficult to separate its presentation qualities during a comparison to a EAR 899 Power Amp.

With the resident 899 in the system used, the system Value is close to £50K

With the Modul 65, the system Value is closer to £40K

Neurochrome Amp's are today my top of the list consideration for Amp's when I retire from using my system that is totally Valve Orientated. 

FYI, In a £200K System with a Soulution Power Amplification and a value of approx' £150ish K with the Neurochrome Modul 686 as the comparison Power Amp', the system was just as impressive with the 686 included. some from the short term demo' received made their preference for the 686 known. The system owner was usually an outspoken individual, which following the demo' was not too outspoken, "

In your system I’d first look at a better streamer from Innuos, Aurender, Grimm, etc.  The Zenith is really good, but I think there’s a good bit more to potentially be had there.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.

I don’t think upgrading those already excellent amps will make a noticeable difference. Better speaker placement, better room, better recordings would imo make much bigger differences. It’s my belief once your amp/amps are very well made and powerful, differences beyond that from upgrading the amps are extremely subtle.

Obviously changing speakers would change your sound. But you have great speakers, so it’s unclear if changing them is an upgrade or not. 

on a serious note: I am sure you can get a different sound that you enjoy more. I don't know how you go up from where you are now.

Wow, beautiful system and house. What a wonderful place to enjoy music!

If you would like better performance I would look at upgrading your streamer and preamp. That is what looks to me to be constraints on your outstanding system. Look at the top of the line Aurrender to put your digital end in line with the rest of your system. For preamp I would look towards Audio Research or Conrad Johnson. 
 

A bit of a different point of view on @atmasphere ’s comment about price. Audio companies have different house sounds (“intentions”) and by moving up in cost of product the house sound is invariably improved. So, in this sense you get what you pay for. I have never heard a lower level component sound better than a higher level one. For instance moving from entry level Audio Research preamps to their flagship. However, you might prefer the house sound of, say Boulder better. So, if you don’t have a wide range of exposure you could consider a low level ARC preamp to be better sounding that a top tier Boulder. 
 

Alternatively. You could add a high end component to your lower tier system and it could sound bad because it just isn’t synergistic. But within sound categories you universally get better sound the more you spend. I’m sure there is a few exceptions or special circumstances, but in my fifty years I have not stumbled into any real concrete examples. 

Tried to focus the discussion on amp upgrade to folks with direct experience rather than a general system critique. @ghdprentice  thank you for your kind words.  In response to comments on my pre and music server I will offer this.  I have the new Innuos Zenith NG on order arriving in a few weeks.  As to the pre I recently sold my VAC Signature Mk IIa (SE) which was in the system.  I preferred the pre in my MSB Reference DAC which has one additional balanced input that I run my phono pre into.  Room acoustics are great.

An Ad in the Link is from earlier in 2024, a very similar Spec' is on sale in the UK for £2K.

This Model Type and Spec' of Amp' will stand 'toe to toe' with Amp's up to 20 X this Value. I have been present and witnessed this this occur with the lowest and highest of the Neurochrome range. The lowest has stood 'toe to toe' with £8K Branded Valve Power Amp's.

There will be substantial funds reserved if the Neurochrome route to Power Amplification is adopted.

Such savings of funds do enable options to be considered to max out on the most desirable upstream supporting devices. Possibly even used sale item Speakers can be discovered, where careful selections are with the potential to create a ' Out the Ball Park' system for the price of Branded Off the Shelf Power Amplification.

If a device is bought from a Competent and Skilled Amp' Builder, there is nothing not to like about such a methodology to attaining a very impressive Power Amplification for a system.  

Those are good amps. Cost alone means nothing. You can always change if you don’t like the amps for whatever reason: to try newer technology or a different design, a different visual look/aesthetic, measured performance, or whatever you please. That’s totally up to you. I just would never ever make a change based on price alone.

Also always a good idea especially with big ticket items to either audition first or be sure to have a cost effective way out if things do not pan out as expected.

Mono blocks are only advantageous if you are switching to them from an amp that had high levels of crosstalk. A competently designed, high-power stereo amp can be just as good or superior. 

@helomech A popular audiophilism is that the shorter the speaker cables the better.  Do you think this is a significant issue?  Thanks.

I have been demo'd ESL's I am familiar with as a model, that were modded to be direct coupled to Power Amp's. These ESL Speakers were indelible and I have not heard a better ESL from any Brand experienced in use. 

I suppose this could be called a Active ESL.

I have not heard non-Active Cabinet Speakers converted to Active so it is difficult to make any further comments on betterment as a outcome.

Is your room well-treated? Any upgrade should consider the degree to which the room will or won't allow a real difference in component to be audible enough to be worth the money.

Yes. A more expensive amplifier usually sounds better.  I went through a long series of upgrades of everything, and I can vouch that every component got better…of course, I upgraded with thought, as there are some very expensive components that may not sound better.

 

 

A popular audiophilism is that the shorter the speaker cables the better. Do you think this is a significant issue? Thanks.

IME that is true to an extent. For instance, using 8’ 16 gauge VS a 25’ 16 gauge cable. But a 10’ length of 14 gauge cable is not going to present a significant LCR difference VS a 5’ length of the same cable.

IME, it’s better to put the same money into a higher power and/or better quality stereo amp, just so long as it has decent crosstalk performance, which will be the case for nearly any modern solid state amp and most tube amps as well.

The vast majority of audiophiles are using speakers that in my opinion/experience are undeserving of a high end stereo amp, let alone high end mono blocks. If there’s anything I agree on with Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio, it’s his claim that most audiophiles are using amps with capabilities that exceed their speaker quality.

The best sounding amp(s) I ever owned were a pair of ARC VTM120s.  The only reason I got rid of them is that they could be a bit unreliable.

Without getting into system synergy, and keeping everything else constant, you would likely find it worthwhile to go from Classe to CH. Mostly midrange layering, delicacy in the highs and tightness in the dynamics. You might have to trade a tiny bit of boldness and sheer impact for that refinement and delicacy you would get from CH. However, if you listen to mostly rock and pop, I would not go there. 

Go checkout AGD mono blocks class D Thst kick butt against 

Anything and everything even above their price class .

check out the reviews  and  go. Have a listen .

I used to work with a guy that bought a pair of CAD 805s.  He was constantly going off about how it was like "being there."  However, I never went over to listen to his system.  In retrospect, now I wish I would have.

I’ve had many Classe pieces in the past: ca-200, 3 of their preamps last 1 being the cp-60, and the last amps being the ca-m600 monos. I didn’t like the newer Classe products and I didn’t like the thinking of Classe was going to be in business tomorrow. So I went looking for new amps a few years ago and went with the ps audio amps, better performance, and I know they will be supported next year and probably for the next decade. The m600’s didn’t sound bad, they were warm sounding like all the Classe amps before them, but I didn’t like all the fan circuitry that could go south. I would buy another ca-200 or even a cam-350 pair for my 2nd system.

I would consider eliminating the preamp as you have the MSB reference Dac. I would also recommend trying a pair of MSB m205 monos. I went from D’Agostino momentum m400 with momentum pre and a discrete Dac to a premier and s200 and am loving it. The pairing of the MSB amp and Dac is great. I will soon upgrade to either the ref or add the digital director.

Great great room  

That’s a lot of glass. Curtains? Other treatments as tolerated. 
 
Pre Amp

Streamer. (Grimm MU2?)

Re original query:  In general, yes.  Price will vary by intent or depth of pockets...

I see "zero" acoustic treatment in a room which appears to be very lively with lots of hard, reflective surfaces. You may not even know how good your system can sound presently. I'd suggest starting there before spending another penny on equipment.

The OP is asking if higher end monos "could" be a significant sonic upgrade.

IMO absolutely yes is the only answer, but the real question is how much is the OP prepared to spend, because price is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT an indication of ultimate quality.

Example: the difference in sonic quality and price between the Deltas and the new 7 series from Soulution is vast.

One way to be sure of the pairing is to ask Wilson which amps they use when they display/demo at Munich and/or Axpona. They'd know better than anyone here how to get synergy with their speakers.

You have some very nice equipment. What do you feel is lacking in the sound it makes? Perhaps room treatment is the direction you should go at this point?

@OP Replacing your XP-27 with an XP-32 would probably be a better value improvement.

Beautiful room. The dimensions are pretty ideal. The glass walls and lack of acoustic treatments make my ears hurt. As mentioned earlier, you would be better off spending your money on improving the room acoustics before buying any new equipment. 

With as nice a system as you already have, it might make sense to look for alternatives that can be swapped in once in a while for a change of pace, rather than replacements.  Yes, there are amplifiers that might suit your taste and system more than what you already have, but, that can only be determined by a trial; I don't think anyone can make a specific suggestion that would necessarily be an improvement.  Someone mentioned Soulution; yes I think their amps sound good, but will you agree?  I think Gryphon sounds good too.

But rather than going the same high powered solid state route, perhaps you can get alternatives that you can use when you get the inch for something different?  i personally don't like most high powered tube amps, but, what about something medium powered from the tube world? I like the Synthesis Roma 98DC Special Edition at 40 wpc.  If you think you need more power, their NYC100, 175 or 200 models are very good for higher powered tube amps.  They also have terrific integrated amps like the A40 and A100 that I think are super bargains and would make nice alternatives (not necessarily replacements).  My local dealer has sold Synthesis amps to several owners of Wilson speakers who were shocked at how much better these lower-powered amps sounded than the D'Agostino, Mcintosh, Diavalet, etc. amps that were in the system.  Many bought the Synthesis amp for their bedroom system, but when they tried it in their main system, that was a surprise.

It's certainly possible, but it will depend on the specific monoblocks.  If the monoblocks are from Convergent Audio, the answer is almost certainly, but everything else also matters.  

The Classe Deltas are not mid-tier.  If anything, they are a bargain compared to

lesser amps that cost more.   B&W frequently pairs their best equipment with the Delta monos — because, according to a Bowers rep Intalked to, they were designed to work together.  I sold more expensive amps to get the Classe because I had Bowers 800D3 with which I was very pleased.  The Deltas were a noticeable upgrade.

The only concern I might have is if the Deltas are a good fit with your Wilsons.  I would suspect so, as they have great ability to push out power, but I don’t know.

I upgraded my PS Audio M700 monos to the M1200s. Wider sound stage with more air. Nice improvement.

@davetheoilguy Thanks for talking about the question I asked and not talking about room acoustics which I did not ask about.  As I said in the OP I love the sound of the Delta amps.  I actually moved from their older model the CT-M600.  When I inserted the Delta's I had an immediate and significant positive improvement in SQ.  That's why I have wondered if there are further improvements to be had. Unfortunately, no one in this thread has responded to my question directly based on direct personal experience with an upgrade.

In a word, no. More expensive amps are often because they use more "interesting" case designs or more colorful shiny bits. 

I looked at the picture of your room and I see a lot of glass there I don't know if it's covered with heavy drapes or blinds but if it isn't you'll be getting a lot of bouncing off the glass which will screw up your sound.

Edibles would be a more direct investment in sound quality. 

Some good advice here, some questionable. The truth is there is only one person who can answer your question and that person is you. If you bought your Classe amps from a local dealer, you should try to talk him into a home demo of the amps in which you are interested. If that is not an option, you would be buying with blindness and hope. As others have stated, you have a very nice system in a room full of glass and highly reflective surfaces. I don’t see any treatments (blinds, drapes etc.) on the large front windows and this could be a WAF issue, but covering those might be of more benefit that changing amps. Otherwise, try to do what we’re all unsuccessful at - enjoying what you already have.

l love the Boulder Preamp idea ... or others on that strata!

Since you have a difficult WAF restricted room, the only thing that could produce significant movement of the needle sonically would be a consultation with a professional acoustician like PoesAcoustics (Matt Poes) or Anthony Grimani (Grimani systems) who have a knack for measurements and discrete non-invasive treatments (made to look like a regular wall/ceiling, room decor, etc), probably a discrete in-wall sub, tuned resonator at a feasible spot, etc.

(Beyond the scope of a forum thread).

Actually...talk to Anthony on this one, if you can catch him (if he ain’t too busy).

@aewarren If you would read my OP you would see this " I'd love to hear from folks who have made this move in their systems or heard comparisons at shows or dealers."  I am asking about OTHER PEOPLES experience with a power amp upgrade.  Moreover I'm NOT asking for a critique of my current gear or listening room.

@skinzy 

”Unfortunately, no one in this thread has responded to my question directly based on direct personal experience with an upgrade”

I’ve learned a lot of the various audio forums, but unlike most of my hobbies I have to say audio forums have  than their share of people who just like to talk and more seriously unfriendly people.  (Not talking about anyone on the thread; just a general comment.)

Back to your question, I would probably reach out to Wilson or your dealer and see what they think about different monoblocks.  The 800D3s have a weird dip (or requirement or something; I have forgotten ) that the Deltas can specifically address.  All speakers will have their quirks, no matter how nice.  You might want to see if there is a particular set of monoblocks that cures  that issue, whatever it is.

My gut tells me you’re not going to do much better than two Deltas, unless it’s four Deltas in a bi-amp set up.

(One other intriguing possibility would be the McIntosh hybrid drive amps.  McIntosh gets a bad rap in audio forums due to being too “common” for a lot of folks — and overpriced in some models.)

But I’m intrigued by the Mcintosh mc451 dual mono amplifier, that has tubes on top and solid state below. From the ad copy “The MC451 Dual Mono Amplifier is a high-end, hybrid amplifier designed for bi-amping loudspeakers. It combines a 150 Watt vacuum tube amplifier and a 300 Watt solid-state amplifier on a single chassis, utilizing McIntosh’s proprietary Hybrid Drive technology.”

Note, I’ve never heard or even seen one of these.  So it’s not  recommendation, just spitballing.

On your specific Amp question, if tubes are acceptable I’d strongly recommend a CJ Stereo Art150. I’ve been using one for the past year with my Wilson Sasha DAW’s. Beautiful, full range amp and a great paring. This was a major upgrade from CJ Premier 12 monoblocks for me.

I’ve heard Wilsons with tubes and SS (A-B testing) and tubes win hands down IMHO. No tubey haze here either. This amp is clear, full, detailed.

It was nice going to a single box from monoblocks for space management. And finally, put it on a Symposium Ultra platform if you do get one to get the best sound from it.

Good luck!

I recently upgraded from JC1 monos to a CH Precision M1.1.  The differences are shocking, as they should be for the price difference.  :)

I suspect your system will improve greatly with the right amp.

I recently upgraded from JC1 monos to a CH Precision M1.1. The differences are shocking, as they should be for the price difference. :)

what was the shocking difference you heard? could you put it in words?

20k --> 100k --> 5x needle movement?

Unfortunately, no one in this thread has responded to my question directly based on direct personal experience with an upgrade.

@skinzy I did. Apparently you didn't consider my answer valid, even though it was based on exactly what you asked about. I gave you an accurate answer; in case it was not obvious it can be boiled down to this: 'It depends.'

I gave the reasons why. Put another way, going up the line may or may not be an improvement; its entirely possible that something far less expensive might sound better.

I can go into the technical reasons why this is so if you are interested.

@skinzy 

Your points are well taken but how can anyone tell you if a higher priced amp will "move the needle" if you are not specific about the replacement in question and the only specification that seems to matter is the cost? Yes, higher priced amps should produce better SQ, but this will not always be the case. And even if I had the history of personally comparing some pricier amps with your Classe's, my opinion should only be a guideline; it's only your opinion that matters. Best of luck.