While I have one SS class A/B power amp I have 3 tube integrated amps and have zero intention of moving away from tubes, so hopefully they won't fade away
Class D amps seem poised to take over. Then what?
I am certainly biased by my lifetime final amp being a Class D. But I know that after 30+ years of development, Class D seems to be on a high plain. I know there are now many, many companies focusing on Class D and, maybe, a good handful already as good as it gets. My Class D amp is as smooth and beautifully musical as a great tube amp and as punchy and detailed as a great SS amp. I am satisfied and done with my search. A class D amp has effectively taken me off the amp merry-go-round. It’s about time after 50 years. And, for me, this Class D is a milestone. Will all other classes of amps fade away?
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They will fade away for you, it sounds like. That's cool. But seriously, I'm not sure the line of progress is as singular as this. As long as there are different sounds people enjoy, there will be other amp types to suit those tastes. Just as there are different styles of movie genre, coffee roast, etc. there will be a variety in amps. Until, of course, all amps are simply wired into our brains... |
Thanks for bringing this up. I've been on the fence for the last month or so over the Technics SU-G700. I even got a quote for trade in on my old gear and although a bit on the low side, I'd get it for about 1/3 of asking price. The only thing stopping me from taking the plunge is some new speaker cables that have completely changed the sound of my set up to the point where it's all new music I'm listening to. I still have this nagging urge to just get it as the few reviews out there really like it. All the best, Nonoise |
Tempting as the Legacy is, it’s more than I need and I’d have to get a pre amp as well. An integrated is all I need. I found some German reviews that said the Technics bettered a Lavardian integrated, an AVM, and stood well against one reviewers $30K set up. Now reviews are dime a dozen but even one reviewer answered my email and said to just get it as he almost kept the one he reviewed. I’ve had my present set up since 2013 and from what I’ve read, the tech has progressed enough to make a difference. It’s just that those new speaker cables made such a drastic improvement, but I know I’ll eventually get that itch.... All the best, Nonoise |
I reject the premise of the thread title. I buy amps based on performance, value, aesthetics. As do most buyers. I don't bring "class" into the picture. Class D started as the "beyond meat" of amplification designs. Ok, fine, they have gained a foothold as sonically acceptable. So what? Compile a list of amps for future consideration on a list; class would be "oh, nice to know" tidbit - nothing more. |
Class D started as the "beyond meat" of amplification designs.Now, that’s funny. But, looking at the Technics, they’re not using an off the shelf Class D unit but designed theirs in-house and turned the whole thing into one big DAC/power amp, again, not using any off the shelf DAC from another make. A retailer told me that Technics is doing things other companies simply haven’t thought of. The only other company that comes to mind is Esoteric, who developed their own DAC architecture in some of their players. There must be some others but I haven’t researched enough to suss them out. FPGAs are becoming commonplace but this is another kettle of fish. (grannyring, it’s a Technics SU-G700 and not a Yamaha) All the best, Nonoise |
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Only two from Technics so far are in Class-D royalty. They are the Technics SU-R1000 Integrated and the SE-R1 Power-Amp, both use the GaN technology, the SE-R1 uses it to the max, with a 1.5mhz switching speed, it’s yet to be proved/written if the SU-R1000 has gone the extra yards and used this 3 x higher switching speed. Cheers George |
I sure like mine in the summer TIME and doing bass duty ALL the time. Dropped my temp and PG&E trying to stay cool and listen to music when it's 110 degrees outside. I'm crawlin' into the bunker just to cool off. The older I get the LESS I like the heat or below 30 degrees.. 12 full degrees cooler in my front room from Valves to Class Ds AND 1/3 the AC cost.. Fall, Winter or Spring is whole different thing.. Valves ALL the way.. Still class D amps doing the heavy lifting in MB columns and A/B step baffle servo bass amps (Rythmic plate amps) & GRs drivers. Point to point on the Tape/Phono. Heck I use EVERYTHING.. First Watt Active XO, pretty serious step baffle set up, CLASS Ds just sound wonderful through it.. (For Elixirs monitor section) Wima caps.. God bless um.. BOTH are just full!!.. Nelson Pass and Wima have a romance going on.. I'm tellin' ya.. Good caps too.. Regards |
As others have said, class D is now quite good, and for the majority of users it probably delivers the best value when taking into account sound quality, size, heat, weight, etc. I've got a pair of DIY Purifi monoblocks that sound excellent. But, I recently acquired a pair of Pass XA60.8 monoblocks, and there is something about the sound that is captivating beyond what the class D amps can deliver. I'm sure there are tube-fans that would say the same about their amps. I don't think my Pass amps are any cleaner, more dynamic, or more detailed than my class D amps, so there is something else that is influencing my satisfaction. Perhaps it's minor tonal changes, or distortion harmonics, or maybe I just like a slightly warmer room :). But whatever the reason, I think there will continue to be different options to produce different sonic signatures, since everyone's perception of reproduced music, and preferences, are a little different. I do think class D will eventually dominate as the value leader, but there will always be audiophiles that have enough money to buy what most appeals. This may shrink the market enough that there are fewer choices, but I don't think they will go away any time soon. |
I have had some good class D ,I still feel a very good class A, AB sounds more fluid .I hav3 a Coda CSIB integrated and it has much more. Control ,and depth of performance IMO. Spotted 3,000kva transformer ,and over 80k uf in capacitance runs in pure class A for almost 20 - 1st watts and pure class A preamp ,even my dac runs in pure class A on the analog outputs I am good with my Amplification I think it just has more depth, some class D like Merrill sound very good but Waay over priced ? |
I had a tube amp in the late 60s/early 70s (HH Scott 222c, still have one), a Sony TA-3200F (first 'super amp', still have it) and multiple others. Now I find myself using a number of TPA-3118 based class 'T' amps (D with a few mods as you know) since I have a 4-way with a mono sub, requiring 7 amp channels to quad-amp (rest of the system is on 2 desktop computers). They sound incredible and eat hardly any power, not that I focus on the latter. My only concern was phase effects on the tweeters, what with the RF filter, but since I correct measured phase deviations on the 'crossover' computer's filters anyway it doesn't matter (and there's hardly any anyway). Scoping tweeter waveforms requires some amplitude to overwhelm the residual RF (rough on the ears) but that's the only drawback. Sound is crystal clear, and it's amazing to see tiny chip amps driving big Altecs and horns (though they're exactly what they should be driving, being efficient). Big speaker doesn't mean big amp. I see/hear nothing with these little amp boards that's inferior to what I've seen/heard over the years through my heavy, hot old amps, which I still love. Quite amazing really. |
fuzzy one: many performance car drivers use ultra high performance summer tires which CANNOT be used in cool temps, requiring the use of winter tires which make a huge difference in handling. I personally use ultra high performance all seasons and winter tires, also a huge difference. earlflynn: I have a NAD M33 with the latest Purifi amplification. Have not had a single issue and it runs extremely cool and has great sound. What NAD units are you referring to? |
When I think Class D, I automatically think of the good stuff like Devialet, Linn Amps, and Bryston (sp?) amps. I have a very nice pair of Audio Research DS450M monos that I really like. These are fairly powerful, meaning 450 wpc into 8 and 650 wpc into 4 so no lack of power there, and since these are ARC amps, I know it’s good stuff. They’re even voiced with the ARC house sound. As an added bonus, they don’t cook the entire place after an hour or two of listening like my Pass monos do so they’re good on electricity use, and low on heat generation. |
Heard so many amps with class d. Auditioned a lot of them past years, there was always something missing, always, the sound seemed just .......lifeless? I don’t know.....when switched to an a/b Amp in the listening room, same source, cables, speakers, just the amp was switched over, ...the definition of each instrument, came to life, guitars were more detailed, vocals, high’s ......it all came together, while the D seemed veiled, or,.....just missing the sparkle, or depth of a class A/a/b amplifier. Just my opinion to my ears, and how I feel. After 24 hours of warm up, my system, still makes me shutter, and the hair stands up on my arms, and my scalp gets tingly When the first minute of a song plays. If you love D, great, hope they are reliable for 30 years. \,,/ |
As far as the above mentioned stock IceEdge amps from Legacy.......you can buy a dual mono amp with the same stock modules delivered from Rouge Audio to your door for less than $1600.....same thing, way less money. I can then do a mod on the amp that will transform it for $600..... As far as Purifi.....it depends on the skill of the implementor. Check out 10 audio.....they reviewed the $2000 Purifi based NAD C298 and only gave it 6 out of 10......he just reviewed my modified VTV Purifi amp ($1700 total for amp and mod) and gave it a 9.5....and sometimes bordering on 10. There is as much variance in class D as there is in class A/B or tubes. It is all about the skill of the designer. http://www.10audio.com/evs-vtv.htm There are plenty of new class D amps coming out too (almost all GaN based). The $3K GaN based amp from LSA, the $3K GaN amp from Wyred for Sound, the $6K GaN based amp coming from Mytek, the already released $700 GaN amp from Premium Audio and the latest $2500 GaN amp from Orchard. And for serious money the 500 watt GaN mono blocks from Mytek ($20K the pair). Fun times ahead. |
Modern Class D amps like those from Hypex or ICEpower (used in many high end brands) are simply excellent performers, musical ruler flat frequency response, SN numbers that other amps can only dream of achieving and they are respectful of power use and efficiency. Can you hear any difference? Maybe, some people prefer an amp that is not ruler flat in response but instead tilted up or down to compensate for problems elsewhere in the chain. Speaker too bright get an amp that is warmer and rolls off on the top. My view is that you start with the component that has specifications that are excellent, then you pick your input source and speakers to be as balanced as your amp. Of course all of this assumes you value fidelity to the source. If your value is instead, pleasing to my ears, you might select components that intentionally add or subtract from the original and do not produce a true high fidelity sound but instead produce a sound that pleases you. Different goals and as the saying goes: "You pays your money and you takes your chances." |
Hate to tell you this, but Class-D is not digital. Cheers George |
Class D is to “ sterile”. He is very to the point ,but without “feelings”. There’s no emotion in ( music) class D : for me: Class A tube: I have a VAC 300.1 : amazing !Also my favorites: Ear Yoshino , DarTzeel ; Class D is “to” pure…that’s my opinion. Music is an emotion , “empathizing “with the music… I cannot find it in Class D. |
It has been said many many times. The Class of the amplifier is just one of the aspects of its design. Things like power supplies, quality of components, EMC measures, layout of the board, internal structure, internal cabling, etc all matter. I have been using Class D amplifiers from the early days when some of them he emitted too much energy in the tweeters and could blow them up. The latest Hypex/Purifi/Icepower modules have improved tremendously but that is not to say that you can make a blanket statement that Class D is better than others. |
My class A sugden A21se @ only 30 watts into 8 ohms/ 40 into 4 ohms sounds fantastic to my ears....simply pure, warm, effortless, detailed, full bodied, and natural sound. It has a nice wallop when needed...class D sounds much too dry to my ears...class A has a nice wet sound which I prefer. Sugden solid state class A, still going strong since 1967. |
@douglas_schroeder I especially enjoyed this paragraph, both for pointing out a psychological cause of instant resistance to Class D, as well as the variety of stakes in the way of trying something new. And I don't hear you arguing against a variety of sounds -- just the exhortation to try new things before drawing conclusions. This is the key sentence for me, and I'll quote the context below. The only way I have found to re-anchor is through new experiences; technical and anecdotal evidence often is not enough. Without a new experience, how does one find the impetus to shift their perception fundamentally?" "Anchoring can be a problem for audiophiles. Case in point: despite class D amplifiers being invented in the 1950s and having undergone extensive improvement by audiophile interests, such as ICEpower, for more than 20 years, it is still seen by many as a studio technology, designed to cut corners and save space and weight, a cheaper alternative, harsh and “digital” sounding, and not ready for prime time. It’s time you weighed anchor, because you are dragging. The term “anchors aweigh” means the anchors are cleared and the ship is ready for sailing. As of January 2021, these caveats are no longer applicable, at least to certain class D amps. I attempt to actively resist anchoring to old perceptions about audio systems, as I do not find it to be advantageous, at least not in terms of pursuing the best sound. There are influencers, such as industry members with vested interests, who do not want the paradigm to change, as it could be damaging to their business. There are audiophiles who do not want the paradigm to change because it would adversely affect the resale value of their amplifier. There are some who anchored to an experience of hearing a class D amp from five or more years ago. The only way I have found to re-anchor is through new experiences; technical and anecdotal evidence often is not enough. Without a new experience, how does one find the impetus to shift their perception fundamentally?" |
