Class D amps seem poised to take over. Then what?

You rang?
Yes, I am still here. So is infinite eternal bliss and love. Please tune into the love and bliss as much as possible for the sake of all humanity and yourself. Every single moment is a miracle beyond your wildest imagination. You have 60 trillion cells dancing in your body. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak the truth about our magnificence. 

BTW.....the person was pointing his irritation at someone else.......please do a search.....most of us know who "the person" is....from down under.

@ricevs ?

So the irritating poster from down under does not post here anymore and we all stop talking about Class D?
I was wondering if anyone got a chance to compare Purifi Vs GAN amps?

So, it seems you have heard Bakoon. How would you describe them? Current drive?
Speaking of tintinabulation, I get that fully with AGD.

I was referring to the post above mine rather than the amp. Not many people use 'tintinabulation' these days :)  but its a useful word for things having to do with audio.

I had the 50 watt monoblock 5515M on loan for a few months.They are what got me hooked on the Bakoon sound.As friend said you can’t unhear that sound.I agree the Bakoons excel at the musical and tonal flow.I have never heard an amplifier [well a Kondo IOngaku does] do little note bends/lilt like it.If you listen to say Avashai Cohen,Anat Fort ,Bill Evans,The Flying Bulgars,Cat Empire or a sublime singer like Eddi Reader you hear all that interesting stuff which I am sure you would hear in a live performance but most amps can’t properly resolve.

But it was Ralph who said "excluding the Bakoon".
I believe the Bakoons are superb and that the HP-1 is the lessor of the models. I need balanced for preamp/phono and TT rig. And really need the 100 wpc of the top model.
My general feeling though is that Bakoon is not quite as "juicy" as AGD.
Although it is super clear and musical. Bakoon captures the flow and AGD more gets the phrasing.
But before I bought my AGDs I really considered the Bakoon. The 50 watt one would have probably be enough power but it was no balanced and no mono blocks.

No  it was me with the Bakoon .You really need to hear a Bakoon amplifier rather than just a headphone amplifier.Even the very affordable 15 watt 7511 Mk3 will give you a good taste of the Bakoon sound.The Korean Bakoons look a lot nicer than the Japanese ones and have fancier boxes but are not as good value.

Ralph, 
So, it seems you have heard Bakoon. How would you describe them? Current drive?
Speaking of tintinabulation, I get that fully with AGD. Not quite as much with Bakoon.

However what is missing is the decay,the harmonics, the shimmer,the lilt,the atmosphere,the musical feel,the tintinabulation.

Lovely. This property is not the perview of any particular technology IME.

This is a matter of scale and I’ve not heard a conventional solid state amp including those on this list (excluding the Bakoon) that is as smooth and detailed as a good class D.

Ralph,Yes I can see how somebody might make that conclusion and be seduced.The smoothness and detail is there.I would add articulation and leading edge precision to that.The Bakoons have all that too.However what is missing is the decay,the harmonics, the shimmer,the lilt,the atmosphere,the musical feel,the tintinabulation.To quote our former Prime Minister Paul Keating-all tip and no iceberg.

I definitely feel fortunate. I listen to AGD Audions in my main rig and a Bakoon HP-1 in my headphone rig (with superb ZMF Verites).
The Bakoon is excellent. Similar to the AGDs in that “open window” perspective. It is not easy to compare headphones to speakers but I would say that the AGDs take things to a higher level. Not to diminish the Bakoon. And to get the power output range in Bakoon is $18K. They are not balanced. And they don’t make mono blocks.

You can certainly get plenty of body and warmth out of SS amps.It may not be typical for the breed but SS amps like that are not hard to find.Most of the Nelson Pass amps,Audio Flight,Electrocompaniet,Usher,Sugden,Dartzeel and
 many more.And Bakoons which are really special and seem to combine the very best traits of SETs and class A SS.

This is a matter of scale and I've not heard a conventional solid state amp including those on this list (excluding the Bakoon) that is as smooth and detailed as a good class D.

I just got the Technics SU-G700 and love it, but I feel it's an acquired taste.

I'm not 100% sold on the class D vs ??? Debate (don't know enough), but I was really tempted to get the SU-R1000, and am in love with the SU-G700. It sounds great, but as others have said it really fluctuates it's sound based on what other source components you have before and after it.

It seems like it obviously has more potential than your classic integrated amplifier, but again some of the new things/tech could be gimmicky, and others may not like the tonality of it all.

The most interesting thing about this amplifier is that my DAC (Gustard X26 Pro) which has three filter settings and according to the internet primarily only is one good (Vivid), sounds overly bright and almost has the degree of reverb that resignates through most vocals with LAPC enabled. When utilizing all the Technics digital wizardry the amp doesn't project the sound of vocals as well forward as my other amps (as opposed to off center right or left IDKW?). 

This is a really strange kind of amp, but I love it and it does sound really good!

If you combine a DHT preamp and a transparent SS amp you are most of the way towards a very good tube like sound. 


I've never owned a DHT tube preamp, but with the octal preamp and solid state amp I'm using now I tend to agree.

You can certainly get plenty of body and warmth out of SS amps.It may not be typical for the breed but SS amps like that are not hard to find.Most of the Nelson Pass amps,Audio Flight,Electrocompaniet,Usher,Sugden,Dartzeel and
 many more.And Bakoons which are really special and seem to combine the very best traits of SETs and class A SS.
If you combine a DHT preamp and a transparent SS amp you are most of the way towards a very good tube like sound.

Can I simply inquire as to whether the new age of Class D amps are fostering that feeling of warmth and body that one gets from Tube or Solid State amps?

@briggtrim If the class D amp is designed properly, yes, it will sound smooth with warmth and body like a tube amp, something a conventional solid state amp (IME) cannot do.

I use almost all types of amplifiers and class D can sound great if implemented properly. I do at times use a tube preamplifier with class D you get that warmth and lite from within quality that tubes do so well with the low noise massive dynamics and great bass drive that class D amps can produce. 

Hello....Can I simply inquire as to whether the new age of Class D amps are fostering that feeling of warmth and body that one gets from Tube or Solid State amps? As I get more seasoned I find that body and warmth all the seriously convincing and habit-forming though in those days I adored detail and tidiness regardless of anything else.

Any suggestions of Class D that have decent image depth and musical engagement?

IMO the problem with Bruno's modules is that he makes them available for anyone to cook up the input circuit. Many designers have with really variable results! Almost any class D module is going to need some sort of gain and impedance matching at its input since the typical comparitor input (and all class D circuits have a comparitor) is often only about 2KOhms; far too low for most preamps and needing some level at the same time.

So that's one variable. You hope that whomever designed the input circuit knows what they are doing.

The other issue IME/IMO is the power supply. Unless you have an enormous manufacturing budget and can spring for a custom designed switching power supply, if you have a switching power supply its likely to have current limiting issues which can shoot down the amplifier design. For this reason I recommend looking for class D amps that have a lower tech power supply using a conventional power transformer and rectifiers.

So a Hypex can sound great if these issues are properly attended. That is why you hear such variable reports about Bruno's modules (UCD, Hypex and Purifi).

You've probably been hearing about the AGD Audion- all the reports I've heard about this amp indicate that its excellent (not heard it myself).

Read my review of the Legacy Audio i.V4  Ultra at Dagogo.com 
Gorgeous with all genres of speakers 

Ralph,I trust your ears and judgement.
Any suggestions of Class D that have decent image depth and musical engagement?The only one I have heard which I thought sounded OK was a Hypex based Nord but that was only briefly at a hi fi show so I would need to listen longer and to my own music to confirm that impression.I do wonder if in trying to make the Purifi "perfect" [well measure perfect] they have overcooked it and made it worse.

The other problem I am hearing is how mechanical it sounds.I hooked up my Gale 401s which are famous for their rhythm, groove and timing and now they sound like the music is being played by robots! I would have never thought any amp could do that but somehow it is.To me that indicates some fundamentals are really srewed up.

They probably are! But I think you also know that convention solid state amps can have problems as well as tube amps. Class D is no different in that regard- they can sound quite different depending on the design. We have a class D amp here in the shop that sounds for lack of a better expression, dead. But I have a pair of class D amps at home that sound very musical and lively. So If I were you, I'd continue auditioning amps (if you are otherwise interested in this technology) until you find something that ticks all the boxes.

@jtgofish

I have owned lots of hi-end amps, both tube and SS, system is all true balanced kit. Currently (npi) I own (2 years now) a class D EVS1200 based on IceEdge dual AS1200 modules, but lots of tweaks by Ric Schultz. It is a fantastic amp, not at all phasey, with very good imaging. That said, UPS will be delivering my LAS Voyager GaN amp today. I can’t wait to hear whether it is THAT much better to deserve the hype from new owners. It is already broken in, but will give a couple days warm up, at which point I will start my own thread

Atmasphere,The other problem I am hearing is how mechanical it sounds.I hooked up my Gale 401s which are famous for their rhythm, groove and timing  and now they sound like the music is being played by robots! I would have never thought any amp could do that but somehow it is.To me that indicates some fundamentals are really srewed up.

My Starkrimson gan amp arrives in 2 days, I'm jazzed! 

Still not convinced sorry.I recently got to hear the latest Purifi class D [P452 I believe] in a very good system-Magicos/Accuphase and they still sound phasey.There is certainly less haze than earlier but they still struggle to create convincing image depth and height.So just not 3D enough.And sorry but the whole point of stereo recording and reproduction is imaging.I know a lot of people can’t seem to hear that sort of imaging and for them class D might be fine but it in absolute terms it is still flawed.

@jtgofish I'm not doubting your experience but to my understanding the Purifi module is not sold as an assembled amp- you have to buy them and assemble them into an amplifier. So a lot depends on how competent the individual was that did that.


I've not heard the Purifi, but I have heard class D amps that have as much soundstage width, depth and height that I've only heard in the best tube amplifiers (which easily best most of the solid state I've heard).


IMO if you really want to know about this you might try a different amp- one amp does not represent all of them.

All implementations of the Purifi module sound different.  Some OK and some very good and some very, very good.  Here is another take on a $1650 version.....reviewed with Magico speakers:

http://www.10audio.com/evs-vtv.htm

Still not convinced sorry.I recently got to hear the latest Purifi class D [P452 I believe] in a very good system-Magicos/Accuphase and they still sound phasey.There is certainly less haze than earlier but they still struggle to create convincing image depth and height.So just not 3D enough.And sorry but the whole point of stereo recording and reproduction is imaging.I know a lot of people can’t seem to hear that sort of imaging and for them class D might be fine but it in absolute terms it is still flawed.
Switching back to the Accuphase and the comparison made the Purifi class D sound as flat and as dry as a gluten free flatbread that had been left on the back shelf of a VW beetle in Death Valley since about 1974.

My point was: people like the sound the way they like it. Class type, distortion signature, or whatever really doesn’t make a difference if someone likes the sound they have.

Yes. However its not as much a 'taste' thing as so many people think. This is because all human's ears obey the same rules and in the case of distortion this is critical to getting the amp to 'sound right'.

No, of course not.

There is a still going to be a market for class A-B, Class A, Class T, and even Class C!
Lower-end amps from Chinese companies can have class T or some kind of Class D.
The Class type is only important if the implementation is right. It seems like your final amp got it right. Under the right circumstances, it could outperform a Class A amp.

Atmosphere... perhaps we are saying the same thing. My point was: people like the sound the way they like it. Class type, distortion signature, or whatever really doesn’t make a difference if someone likes the sound they have.

I’ve never listened to a Class D amp, so, I could care less. That being said, I have heard systems that sound really nice using a receiver. People can get good sound (stated differently: sound they enjoy) in a bunch of different ways.

 What flavor or class is soothing to the taste buds or ears?

Its not the class of operation- its the distortion signature. If you've got that right the class of operation is irrelevant.

You know... I can enjoy music in a bunch of ways.  Hell, I’ve beat the steering wheel of a rental car when listening to a great song.

yes, a great system, whatever the make-up, is going to sound better than a rental car stereo; however, come on folks....  enjoy what you have and when the itch comes, make a change to a part of your system.

BTW, there isn’t a perfect way to get sound...  it’s all subjective...  coloration is a preference, kind of like ice cream.  What flavor or class is soothing to the taste buds or ears?  Anyone can decide!!

probably over half the people commenting don’t play an instrument. If you did (drums for me) you will realize that a sound system is probably not going to recreate the live instrument...

Go and enjoy the music...

Class D today is no different than another Class, There is the good the bad and the ugly in any class of amplifier.

People wanting a lot of watts on the cheap are going to get the same in SQ regardless of class of amp. Design is key regardless of class.

I jumped back into audio after sitting out for years. I bought a new wadia 315/321 amp/pre-amp along with totem acoustic forest speakers. I was so disappointed with the sound as the speakers sounded great at the store but the bass response was really lacking at home. I considered new speakers but eventually settled on a new Cary Audio SLP 98 pre and 120S MKII amp same speakers. Boy what a difference! So much sound and the speakers I was going to get rid now sound great. Glad I got rid of my wadia 315 class D.

@thecarpathian  Yes! Meant to type that while class D may not take over, it's getting better and better. Sorry, I misspoke.

You might want to read what b_limo wrote one more time...😉

@b_limo  I'm not sure that class D is going to "take over", as you say, but it's definitely getting better and better.

Uhh, class d isn’t going to take over.  Have a good day!

As mentioned earlier all amps have their pro's and cons.  I've had my share of tube and ss amps over the past 35 years.  Currently using Bel Canto Ref600M's with Rogue RP7 Pre.  I'm not missing my PrimaLuna HP integrated at all.  The kids maybe a little "lighter" but the layers of music are really nice.  I find myself listening to music more rather than listening to equipment.  I'll probably go back to class a at some point but right now I don't miss the weight, heat or sound.  All is good.

Whatever, one day you'll find out you were full of it.

??? How do know this? My AGD's drive my Wilson's perfectly, my Wilson's never sounded better and i have had more than four decades with Wilson's. You seem to be an expert on what you have never heard or owned. Why post anything when you do not have a leg to stand on, your so far in left field it's not funny.

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” -Aristophances

You must be describing yourself there, because all your shilling here, is "making out" that the Class-D you’ve got coming will be able to drive these hard to drive speakers to sound their best, a little secrete for you, it won’t! -Georgehifi

It reminds me of an ad I posted on US Audio mart one time. A buyer asked me what a JC Penny ad has to do with me selling a tuner. Most people understand that US Audio Mart routinely puts ads on their sellers ads. Alternatively you should of figured out that it was tongue and cheek.

Just look at their independently measured 2ohm wattage figures (if you can find them) then compare to their 4ohm wattage figure, and see if the 2ohm even tries to come close to doubling the 4 ohm wattage figure, and post it up **** **** and if you don’t you full ** ****

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” -Aristophances

What georgie should do is stop ****** ******* *** ***** ** **** *** **** *** ***.

+1.

@erik_squires  agreed.