Hello @psnyder149 great comments on Bill at gtt audio. He is a great guy and has amazing equipment. He has commented that the Makua (and Tambaqui) are the stars of the MM lineup. Your set up is similar to one of mine, in that I had Classe amps with my Makua / Tambaqui. But ever time I went downstairs to my Audionet electronics with Tambaqui it just ‘sparkled’ more! So I replaced the Classe amps with Audionet Max amps and oh my!!! Now I hear the true beauty of the Makua w Tambaqui. This system uses Revel Salon 2’s and Rel carbon special subs.
Best Full-Function Preamplifier
Consulting the collective wisdom on the best preamp with built in phonostage (MM/MC). DAC not required but OK if it has one. Below $20K retail. Must be a no compromise solution--outstanding linestage and a flexible, great sounding phonostage that would not make you wish you had separates. Thoughts?
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Yamaha C5000... impossible to get a better full-function pre under 20k, ime...about a 120 hours of burn-in is required to make it drop jaws. I understand though.. the run of the mill audiopheulele wouldn’t look at it because ’Yamaha’ couldn’t possibly make him feel all that ’elusive’. There are plenty of other blank crap shooters with all the elusive marketing in that price bracket for such elusive elves. 😁 |
A quick scan of this Audiogon Forum reveals over 45 threads about 'Accuphase voltage conversion' - necessary if you import a used piece from Japan into NA or Europe. Otherwise one can monkey around with transformers, @dodgealum does not strike me as someone who wants to spend time chasing equipment and mods to perhaps save a dollar. You maybe projecting. The new distributor has service in CA and TN for gear they sell only. As far as the fully balanced C-2300 goes it is better than the two preamps it replaces according to Accuphase, borne out by my listening and lab tests. The AD-60 is based on the C-47. Relevant is the use of FETs for MM and bipolar for MCs. The knock on some of the other big box names mentioned is that their included phono stages are basically from an A/V receiver. The company has been successful for 50 years and has a succession plan. Its latest lead designer comes from Yamaha semiconductor. |
I would recommend the Mola Mola Makua preamp. It can be purchased as a line stage or with a phono stage and/or a DAC stage. The beautiful thing about this preamp is that it is super transparent, neutral and very dynamic. The cherry on the top is the option of an absolutely wonderful sounding phono stage (same circuit as the Lupe stand alone phono stage). And if so moved, the optional DAC card is the finest I've heard (same circuit as the Tambaqui stand alone DAC). |
Dear @dodgealum and analog friends: I think that this thread is really more important that what we could think and this is my " understanding " about:
Why? because we invest money and a lot of time to fine tunning each one of us analog rig: TT/Tonearm/cartridge overall set up trying to achieve top overall MUSIC reproduction enjoyment and if we really want to achieve that top MUSIC enjoymentt we have ( a must to. ) to be extremely carefully what to do with that cartridge - signal to preserve its whole INTEGRITY and the very first step is to choose the " rigth " phono stage and line stage that permits that kind of achivement. Not an easy task and certainly not with separates units for several reasons as the ones that posted lew and atmas. Of course that after the whole cartridge signal process inside phono/line stages room/amps/speakers/cables is the second step but this issue is not for this thread. To preserve the cartridge signal and everything the same that signal needs to pass not only through the different circuit stages ( gain, RIAA and again " gain " ) but through short circuit layout paths and these single reasons could be the foundation why we need a full-fuction preamp. Now, any pono manufacturer/designer knows the very hard task in the phono stage design when is need it to has a gain that could goes up to over 8K times the very LOMC cartridge level and that high gain must be do it with very low noise/distortions. This high gain/low noise task combination is a true nigthmare where that cartridge integrity could be severly damaged because you can't do it using only one circuit gain step ( designer choices are passive gain or active high gain. I am for active high gain.) and because that very low level audio signal is surrounded my several internal/external contamination sources ( EMF, RF, etc, etc., active parts, transformers, etc, etc ) but this is only one of the main targets of any phono stage the other is that the cartridge signal must pass through that " terrible Himalaya " named inverse RIAA eq. that means an equalization around from -20db to +20db from 20hz to 20khz ( it's not exactly that but only to have an idea. ) and when that valuable and sensible cartridge signal pass through that RIAA whole process not only must pass with added/losted noise/distortions at MINIMUM but with almost NO Frequency Response deviation: this is that response must be flat from 20hz-20khz that's imposible to achieve it in the analog domain. Best phono stages are around 0.05db to 0.1db FR deviation. This could makes a difference on the quality level? sure makes a differences because the RIAA is a curve and any deviation at any single discrete frequency affects almost 2 octaves and this means higher colorations to that cartridge signal. Now, suppose that the cartridge signal comes out with MINIMUM added/losted " distortions " ( something ideal. ) now that signal needs more gain level for the amplifiers can hadled that " original " cartridge signal and this main overall third step in the full-function preamp even that's a little more easy than the past 2 main steps it's and has the same critical importance because inside this line stage the signal needs more gain with low noise and not " added/losted " colorations/distortions. As in the 2 first steps here in the line stage the preamp design must be first rate and nothing less than that. Phono and line stage have the same critical importance to achieve the final target in our room/system: MUSIC TOP QUALITY ENJOYMENT.
Last step but not least is the external Power Supply that must be top design too to " send " clean, low noise, no contaminated with true high overload levels electrical supply to the different preamp stages. As the other preamp stages here exist different challenges for the manufacturer/designer. The 3180 Power Supply comes with the main power cord input and 3 other inputs that are the umblical ones: 1 for the left channel, 1 for the rigth channel and the third one for the logic control circuit card/stage. We try to don't let nothing at " random " and that's why the unit can't be overloaded under any play " scenario ".
Inside different price ranges in the audio market no two preamps sounds similar due that designers choices were/are differents not only in active/pasive parts, circuit boards layouts, way of tests over the preamp, but the choosed trade-offs ( nothing is perfect. ) in the overall preamp design at each single stage.
Any phono stage customer needs to know that several phono stages that are in the market and that offer inputs for MC and MM cartridges does not comes with separated MC and MM stages but use/share the same phono stage circuit when electrically the MC performs way better with active gain bipolar devices and MM with FET devices. MC can runs with FET? yes but it's not optimal when we are looking for the " best ".
Yes we ( José and I ) designed the Essential ful-function fully balanced and fully discrete preamp starting 15 years ago with the 3150 model followed by the 3160 ( that @lewm own ) and today the Essential 3180. Our unit is custom made on custom order and we really are not in the audio market and do not compete with the preamps in the market. What we want is only to share with a few MUSIC lovers what we achived taking in count that we have a true passion for MUSIC ( hardwer is only a tool to enjoy MUSIC. ) and we took the overall work design/manufacture of the Essential due that what existed and exist in the audio market even that are very fine units just does not satisfy our and MUSIC demanding targets to really be " there ". Btw, it's a little weird/curios that the 8-10 Essential owners all were tube lovers when our unit is a full SS. We think that the 3180 has no real signature ( tube/SS/analitical, warm and the like ) other than wake up in us that alive emotions that only MUSIC can does when reproduced in the " rigth " enviroment.
We will make only a few 3180 for the " lucky " gentlemans that have the " rare " opportunity to own it.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
The McIntosh C49 is a very capable preamp with excellent and wide parameter separate MM and MC phono inputs and an upgradeable DAC. You even get tone controls that are digital and by-passable, so no pots or switches in the music stream. All of the inputs, 7 analog and 6 digital, are programmable for the actual name of the connected device and you choose the order that they appear in. All of the info appears on a McIntosh blue dot matrix display. Check it out here C49.
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My unit is technically a Chardonnay, having wanted a 6SN7 unit. I did however request upgrading all the essential parts to max it out. Added about 1K to the stock price. Had it built specifically match a pair of Audiopax M 100s and due to the low 18db gain of the amps, and the high input voltage required 2.5 V, Mick was all to happy to match me up. Also Mick has a go to repair guy who loves in the states. Believe his name is Slade, could be mistaken. |
Accuphase was mentioned above. Unfortunately they dropped excellent 2400 series. Thus I recommend to get on used market and purchase their previous model - C-2450 with AD-2900 phono plugin. Currently made C-2300 model is lower range unit, and C-2900 is much more expensive and lack tone controls. Import it directly from Japan to get reasonable price.
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@dentdog May I ask which Supratek preamp you are using and which amp you have mated it with? I am waiting on my Supratek Grange Signature to be built currently... |
I have previously owned the Macintosh C-2300 and C-50. both had excellent phono preamplifiers. They accommodated both moving magnet and moving coil cartridges. Loading could be adjusted from the listening position with the remote. The 2300 did not have a Dac built in, which was part of its charm. The C 50 had a decent DAC as well. Newer models like the C 2700 and C 53 have even better digital to analog converter’s. My best full-service preamplifier has been the Aesthetix Janus. it is away at Aesthetix being upgraded to the signature version. I am very much looking forward to getting it back. |
Fast freight+1 At this price point the Mola-Mola Makua should be considered. Reference quality phono stage + preamp is around $16,000 msrp new. Optional Stereophile class a rated DAC (identical to Tambaqui standalone) adds around $8000. Contact Bill at GTT Audio in NJ and he will arrange an audition either at his place or send one to your home. I have been enjoying my Makua for a year and it has taken my system to a level that I could never have imagined. Paired with Clearaudio Ovation / Tracer / Hana vinyl rig. Classe Audio amplification and ProAc speakers. note that the Makua will reveal as much detail as your system allows so attention should also be paid to power, cabling and isolation. I am using all Nordost Valhalla level including QBase and QKore and cat m12 ethernet switch. At this level, everything matters. also, I believe there is a fully outfitted demo unit available with DAC and phono stage for upper teens and a used one with phono and no DAC (can be added later by sending in unit) air well under $10k. But I would strongly suggest starting with GTT. Bill is an exceptional dealer with fantastic customer support. enjoy! |
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May I suggest the new Accuphase C-2300 preamp? It is fully balanced input to output, has a tape monitor/processor loop, four band tone controls and a loudness control that switches in/out, has different levels of gain, and can be had with an AD-60 mc/mm phono board for a list price of approximately US $16.5K? You can read about the C-2300 here. The US importer, Axiss Audio, has had a recent infusion of talent and capital. Axiss have lowered US prices, making them much more competitive with the rest of the world. |
If separates are OK, I’d recommend Coincident Technology. You could get both a killer linestage and phono preamp within your budget. I have his Dynamo 34SE MKIII amp. Incredible quality for the price. I did look at his preamp but I am still very happy with my Don Sachs linestage. Check out the reviews, or better yet, try for an in-home audition. Israel Blume is a very honest and accommodating kind of guy. His website is Here. |
@vinylshadow , THANK YOU again. That is good information. Part of my hesitation on the seismic podiums is I’ve been thinking about switching to the next model up in the Vandersteen line, and they have a different shape and footprint dimensions, so if I got podiums that fit one they may not fit the other. (Oh, and need more money!)
https://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-vibration-isolation-speaker-podiums/ |
@patrickdowns A high end cable maker I recommended them to bought a pair of Seismic platforms for his expensive speakers. This gentleman has exquisite ears. He has to as a cable maker. He was floored by the difference the podiums made. He wrote me that the podiums were like an equipment upgrade that took his system to an audiophile level...I’m not being hyperbolic. He was incredulous. If you can, I would save up and buy a pair. But using Pods would likely work. Perhaps not as stable. Maybe not as much 3D pivoting. Not sure...I bought a Seismic platter for my turntable, Seismic Isolation Corners for my heavy rack and pods for my sub, amps and every piece of equipment. F-1 Fractal speaker cables and interconnects & digital cables as well. I’m Townshended out! I had an offer to talk to Max in the early part of December 2021 and I unfortunately declined and he passed away at the end of December. A genius he was. |
@patrickdowns: Watch USAM for a set of used Townshend Audio Seismic Podiums or Bars, they come up for sale pretty regularly. For a cheaper alternative, if your speakers have narrow enclosures with a base that extends out in all directions (front-to-back and side-to-side)---or bases that are "outriggers", you can use sets of Seismic Pods instead. The Pods may simply be placed at each corner of the base, or even bolted onto the speaker base or outrigger, in the holes provided for the stock spikes. The Pods are far cheaper than the Podiums and Bars, and equally effective, assuming the speaker base or outrigger is big enough. |
@vinylshadow — Excellent! I look forward to reading about your impressions of the Allegri.
Cheers |
I've recently purchased it after reading several reviews and talking to John Hannant at Townshend. I am still in the middle of a big system upgrade including the ASR Basis phono pre and many Townshend cables and Seismic Isolation devices so unfortunately I have not utilized the Allegri yet. The Passive nature was a big selling point but the reviews that I continue to read are Stellar. I guess I projected my anticipation in my OP.... Good luck!! |
@vinylshadow re:Townshend Allegri Reference Passive Preamp
Do you have experience with that or have you owned it? I am very intrigued by it. I have a good passive line stage that I used for years up until about 6 years ago. I still own it and it’s a backup. What can you tell me about the Townshend? I was interested in the Tortuga passives but they apparently have stopped selling them assembled and only sell some kits.
Thanks! |
It depends on whether you're looking for a fancy piece of gear so you can impress people, or just want a good preamp so you can listen to the music. I say don't waste your money. Find an Apt Holman preamp, have it gone over and then enjoy the music for around $1k. Two phono inputs, both MM, one with adjustable capacative loading. Tuner input plus two Aux; two tape monitors plus External Processing Loop and two outputs. Not beautiful but, in my opinion, an exceptional piece of gear. |
This is an interesting subject - how to get maximum performance for $20k buying new preamp and phono stage. Just because integrating separates is more difficult doesn't mean that the result cannot be better. But maybe within this price level it would be at least not worse to get, as suggested, full function preamp from VAC, Atma-Sphere or CAT. I am not sure what I myself would do. |
@vonhelmholtz , @lewm beat me to the punch but the simple answer is 'no'. When the phono section is built in the designer has better control of the impedances involved and certainly the interconnect- since that's been eliminated. You also reduce the possibility of ground loops, something that's always out there, in particular with single-ended stuff, grounding being what it is. Phono cartridges are a balanced source, so if you really want to do things right the phono section will have a balanced input. One of the goals of balance line operation besides eliminating ground loops is to also eliminate interconnect cable artifact. If there's any place in the system to get that right, its between the tonearm and preamp, since any losses there cannot be corrected downstream regardless of how good your equipment is. Ticks and pops are a common complaint that digiphiles often cite and for good reason. But most people are not aware that certain phono preamp issues can generate ticks and pops that sound for all the world as if they are on the surface of the LP. They are caused by high frequency overload of the input circuit. That might be a topic for another thread; I can explain more if anyone is interested- I've done that on this site a number of times in the past. |
@lewm you bring up many very good points regarding SQ that should be considered when looking at full function vs. separate line and phono stages. I went through several iterations of “separates“ before finally settling on a full function preamp for spinning records. Why, because for the same dollars it just sounded better. I have since decided, primarily because I’m old and lazy, to go with strictly a digital source. Particularity when considering the OP’s budget (if you have enough money in this hobby you can pretty much do anything) looking at a full function preamp like Vac or Atma-Sphere or I’m sure there are a couple of others that don’t come to mind, will give him the biggest bang for his bucks in his quest for SOTA. |
I seriously disagree with those who suggest one is best off with separate phono and linestages. (And by the way, the term "preamplifier" historically assumed a linestage and phono stage on one chassis.) Here are the advantages of an all in one unit: (1) The signal runs through one fewer pair of inputs and outputs and one fewer (often very expensive and always SQ affeccting) IC is required. This point alone is nothing to toss aside as not only do ICs add flavoring, at best, but also the connectors are a source of subtle alterations in SQ. (2) Just because the phono and linestages are on one chassis does not necessarily mandate a single power supply. The best all in one units have a massive power supply on a separate chassis and often that box incorporates separate supplies for phono and linestage, respectively, and (3) having the phono and linestage on one chassis also gets rid of an output coupling stage entirely or at least permits the use of a much lower value capacitor in a capacitor coupling between phono and linestage. Also, in a tube unit, no need for a cathode-follower at the output or and a solid state unit, no need for the analogous solid state topology. As for separates, one advantage (to the manufacturers) is cost. If you really want to spend money and pay for the same thing twice (chassis's and PSs), go for it. I own both an Atma-sphere MP1 (albeit a fairly ancient one with some updates) and an Essential 3160. Both of these units are fully balanced, inputs to output, and both have outboard PSs with separate supplies for the phono and linestages. I can only imagine the sound of an up to date MP1, but it is somewhat restricted with only one pair of balanced phono inputs, designed for high gain but can be reconfigured for low gain. For flexibility and amazing transparency, I would highly recommend the 3160 or the latest greatest iteration, the 3180, which I have not heard, in that both of these have entirely separate circuits for MM vs MC cartridges. My 3160 has an exceptionally lucid linestage which was a hard sell to me, because I am at heart a tube guy. I can only imagine how great the 3180 is going to be. |
@mulveling , yes, Kevin got this phono circuit right. Mine is also kind of a one-off now, having been upgraded with Statement transformers (pre and phono), and slide-in screw terminals on both MCs that let me swap in any value of transistor for loading. I use nude Vishays. Brent did it for me. Those guys can do anything! |
I second @mulveling’s rec for a used VAC. The higher-end models have excellent phone stages using 6 x 12ax7 tubes. As for Lundahl transformers, many people find them a feature, not a bug, although they can certainly be bettered by some separate SUTs. I’ve been running a Phi Beta preamp for 12 years with dual MC phono. Built for longevity as well as great sound, it goes all day like a lumberjack, usually for 12 hours each day, since I work at home. The phono, while not quite as refined as my Allnic H3000, is robust, natural, tonally rich and throws a massive soundstage. I could easily live with it as my only phono if I cut down to just two tonearms active (from 5). I also have a Modwright PH9.0 that I never use because the internal VAC is better IMO. The Phi Beta, TOL in 2011, has been superseded by models including the 2a Signature, Master, and Statement, which employ a very similar circuit but are no doubt even better. Great stuff. |
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I use what I consider to be not just a preamp with a phono stage but a “vinyl playback machine” the Atma-Sphere MP-1. A tube device, it has 6 tubes for the preamp line stage and 10 tubes for the phono. However, currently a fully loaded MP-1 sells for $33,500 not $20,000. Best to roll with NOS tubes. I got very lucky and got Mil Spec Mullard 12AT7s for the phono. Rare as hen’s teeth. |
VAC preamps have (optional) onboard phono stages that are fully "separates" quality, plus some. Only caveat is they use Lundahl SUT’s for MC gain, which is not my preference. So I patch in my own external SUT boxes and use VAC’s MM mode (all tube). Vinyl is 99% of my played source material, so I care about this a lot lol. |
Hello, I agree with a few above about Audio Research Ref 6se. The preamp is the soul of your system. It is on my wishlist. I have the Ref 5se. It’s amazing! The Ref 3se phono stage is also on my wishlist. Right now I am using the Hegel v10. I believe you could have both for your price range. The amazing thing about the Hegel is it has a separate linear power supply built into the wall plug. It has balanced outputs and of course a lot of gain if you need it. For $1650 it is a steal. Please make sure your cartridge is set up properly otherwise not much else matters. |
Dear @dodgealum : Essential 3180 that’s a true challenge for over 120K separates units like FM Acoustics or CH and better than Boulder or Dartzeel and the like. It's an active high gain balanced dual mono non-feedback fully discrete overall design with 2 totally separates phono stages : MM/MC and second to none line stage.
@lewm that I think you know as a very well regarded Agoner owns the Essential 3160 and I hope he could chime here about and the interesting main issue behind the 3180 is that is a full-function design with the stages facilities you are looking for that comes with external power supply. You can contact rauliruegas@hotmail.com
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
