This question has been answered multiple times. The simple answer is: Why would they? Just because a customer wants a certain amp or preamp doesn't mean that they consider the manufacturer a specialist in power cord design, and they usually want to experiment with different brands that they have read about or been given a recommendation for.
Manufacturers of high end gear are well aware of this, so they supply perfectly adequate power cords, and leave it to the buyer to decide whether or not to use them.
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Good question. I have pondered it off and on. But, do not know of any companies doing it. A number of speaker manufacturers use wire internally made by high end manufacturers. But I haven’t seen it go further.
Maybe the “best” varies so much from system to system it is difficult game? But, I will say that clearly Audio Research products have a large synergy with other brands Audio Research components… so, they could theoretically follow that paradym and make or recommend the ideal cord to achieve their “best” sound among ARC only components… with a chosen speaker.
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@roxy54 Respectfully, that is really not much of an answer. If someone thinks a company is competent enough to design a box they want surely they would be competent enough to choose a wire to connect it to anther box. Further I do feel there would be a distinct marketing opportunity for a manufacturer doing so. Are you saying they believe the stock cord they supply is as good as any other? Because that is the message they seem to be sending from my viewpoint.
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Burmester is company that offers complete loop and complete list of products if you like and want their system, including speakers.
As for the power cords, when you buy Burmester product, from their ’top’ or ’reference’ line, you are getting the power cord with component as well.You may buy that cord for some other gear or for some lower level Burmester stuff as well.
Now comes the tricky part. Burmester often demonstrates their system that are wired with their cables, but often they do it with Nordost Odin or Valhhala wires.
Had them both (V.and O.first series), ic’s and power cords (never the speaker cables) with complete Burmester system (except for the speakers) and the Odin’s are the best (no surprise there) but one should be carefull (imho) with Valhalla’s, as they tend to dominate on the sound of the system, making it somewhat ’clinical’ in lack of better term.
Between Valhalla’s and Burmester wires I would probablly choose Burmester’s silver ones (for the reason above mentioned) and that way you will also save few thousands.
But, it is important to say, that if you have only one Burmester component in your system (for example now I have only their 089 ’top line’ player/dac/preamp) you may have ’better’ results with some other cable brand, depending on your system and taste.After many different ones that I have tryed, now I use Synergistic Research power cord. (Burmester cable is in the box for now) Not saying that SR. is ’the best’, but it took me months of trying all that I can get my hands on (from friendly dealer and friends) and that particular one suited me the best. Again, if I change my amp and preamp, some other may sound better, who knows. I believe only to what I hear, in my system.
As for other brands, I think that Spectral recommends Mit, and Ayre Cardas (perhaps Avalon too, when its in combination with Ayre) and I think thats some other brands might have their line of cables as well (Gryphon or Naim for example)
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It's the same answer that's ended up being the general consensus for all these years it's been asked, making it much, and enough, of an answer. Manufacturers know their market will experiment with and/or have their own cables to try with it.
What the manufacturers hear with a particular cable will not be what their customers hear in the context of their systems.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Thanks for contributing that knowledge @alexatpos !
If the situation is as you describe @nonoise then it really is impossible to talk about matching cables to equipment at all. It puts us all adrift in our own little bubbles of perception with no common points on which to moor. If you will excuse me it is a bit reminiscent of the so called Dark Ages, prior to the Enlightenment when the all purpose answer to every question was "...because God made it that way". Is it not?
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PS Audio recommends specific cords and cables for their products...I have read, and been told by manufacturers, they include a good power cord that "non believers" will be happy with, and assume others will prefer to select their own cord, rather than have an expensive one included...Classe used to recommend an upgrade cord over the included cord...it's interesting to see how few use the included cord at audio shows or in their in house listening rooms...
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@bruce19 Forgot to write that once I had Krell Evo 302 amp and got the power cord with it as well. It was 20A thick wire and it almost looked like ordinary 'black' cable that you get with other gear (only much thicker and surface was smooth, like insulation on Cardas cables) but it was 'better' sounding than few that I tryed on its place. Could I perhaps find a 'better' one? Perhaps, but, imho, it takes lots of time and lots of cables to find the one you consider the 'best' (even if you have the idea what 'type' of the cable or the 'sound' you are looking for).So, sometimes if some piece of gear plays great already with its power cord (like that Krelll, finding the aftermarket cord is something that I worry less about) Imho, the power cord on any component must be in synergy not only with that piece of gear, but with the rest of the system, including all wires.For example, sometimes is possible to find 'better' cable (per se) for some component, but some other might be better suiting for the sound of the whole system
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Wouldn’t they be in the best position to test or design the optimum cable for their component?
Yes and no. They could pick the best PC that works IN THEIR SYSTEM, but that’s in no way a guarantee that it would synergize best with a customer’s specific needs. Given how cables can sound different in different systems and the quality of power, power conditioners, etc. varies greatly in every system there’s really no “one size fits all” solution for cables and why 95% of all manufacturers don’t include PCs or interconnects with their equipment. If the cable qualities were consistently translatable they’d include or at least offer them. Making cables optional is a thought, especially if they can be offered at a discount, but most seasoned audiophiles won’t do that as they know what cables work best in their systems and will in all likelihood stick with those. Obviously including any quality cables would jack the price up of any component dramatically after retail markups and make them look much less competitive compared to those that just provide a passable cord and let the customer decide where to go from there. If it made sense to offer better cables with their gear manufacturers would be doing it, but they clearly know it’s to their disadvantage to do so unless they’re in the cost-no-object category where they can bury the cables in the astronomical cost of the equipment.
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Audio Note looks like a very cool company although I am sad to say I have never heard their equipment. Just the fact that they offer a DIY line puts them in another league (for the better IMHO).
I was actually aware of PS Audio and Audioquest. I bought a couple of power cords when buying a power conditioner from them on the strong advice of the sales person but I must admit I just use them because I have them now. It seemed to be a co-marketing arrangement as much as a clear endorsement. The aggravating fact is the lack of clear statements, much less data to help sort the wheat from the chaff. It seems like this cable searching business could take a lifetime and the cable sellers are not unhappy with that situation at all, much as Nonoise suggested above! I guess I'm looking to identify those manufacturers who have the courage to step forward and say something definitive with regard to how their products are connected. So, I am grateful to those of you adding to that knowledge base.
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Making cables optional is a thought, especially if they can be offered at a discount,
@soix you raise an excellent point which I forgot to mention. Certainly if one or more cable models where determined to give top results the manufacturer could negotiate bulk purchase pricing to help make an attractive package deal.
My concern is that manufacturers don't speak on this issue because they don't want to stir up a hornets nest among their industry brethren. A reasonable supposition that leaves us consumers out in the cold.
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Audio companies don't want to increase prices of their units with 'better cables' that may or may not work with their systems. So, they leave it to owners to decide what they like/want.
That is the reason.
(And, yes, I asked them).
B
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@bruce19 ,
I don't see it as the way you interpret what it is that I said. My meaning is that we all hear differently and because of that, we're all going to favor one cable over another and that the manufacturers know this by now.
To use your metaphor of "because god made it that way" presupposes that there is no other way to see hear it which brings us back, full circle, to the manufacturer knowing what's best and their suppling of the cable. I don't see it that way.
But hey, it's a free country. 😄
All the best,
Nonoise
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For the same reason GM doesn't make tires. They instead partner with Michelin and try to sell you the recommended tires through a back door. GM does cars and they leave it at that.
Your are asking a question from a marketing point of view that has a marketing driven answer. |
For the same reason GM doesn't make tires. They instead partner with Michelin and try to sell you the recommended tires through a back door. GM does cars and they leave it at that. Your are asking a question from a marketing point of view that has a marketing driven answer.
It is probably closer to what brand of fuel that goes into the tank.
It is not like fuel derived from a T-Rex is better than Brontosaurus, or swamp, based fuel.
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Think about how much time effort and money goes into r&d for a single product. Then you have to market the heck out of it to try and find market share in an extremely crowded field. Then you have to manufacture it at a price to make your spread to keep your company profitable and sustainable. After all of this why would you hitch your wagon to another company that could one tear you down with an inferior product, or two overshadow all your hard work. You can buy an after market power cord for $10 or $100,000 where would you start?
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Think about how much time effort and money goes into r&d for a single product.
What R&D?
Most of these cables have no measurements, and more like R&D derived from a creative writing course.
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@gs5556 The analogy with tires is actually a pretty good one since all new cars come with tires selected by the manufacturer. That's the way they get reviewed and tested too. I get it that then you can also opt for "hi-performance" or longer life tires, but, unlike audio cables there is a ton of objective data to help you make a rational choice. Same goes for the fuel, we do have octane ratings after all.
I have heard and read enough high end designers on the record talking about the complex and sophisticated physics and engineering that they employ in deciding how things get chosen inside the unit. I strongly suspect they could make similar information available to use consumers to help us make more informed decisions about the relatively simple connectors for these units. However I also am aware there is a VERY lucrative niche industry that likes the status quo.
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Although this thread seems to be devolving, I’ll bring up two companies that I know ‘step up’ to recommend cables, and even supply cables. (2) Schiit recommends two companies that provide interconnect cables for their components: Straight Wire and Snake Oil, they are listed on their website, and I can only assume that they are the alternate suppliers of Schiit’s Pyst cables. (2) Musical Fidelity provides directional RCA cables to connect their turntables to your system which I can verify work very well.
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@holmz
I was talking about the components not the cord!
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@oldrooney point well taken.
Here is our list so far:
Brumester
Audio Note
PS Audio?
Krell
Schiit
Musical Fidelity
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Have you ever seen a bone-stock Harley? The after market industry (including their own) is ripe with every conceivable thing you can hang, bolt, glue or screw on one that make the bike different from someone else’s. Whether or not these additions improve the bike is open for debate.
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@bruce19
How is it not much of an answer? I think it has been proven to be true in practice. I think that the companies that make amps etc. are fully capable of making good power cords, but part of the fun of being an audiophile for many is to mix and match different boutique brands with their components. It isn't about their ability to make good cords, it's more about customer perception.
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I've used Cullen PC and ic for some time and they're good value and good performers ( for my gears and ears ).
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Great and valid answers above. Merrill Audio provided Cardas PC’s and IC’s with the Thor monoblocks I purchased. Even though these cords were branded Merrill Audio, they were Cardas cables. I used them with great sucess with the Thors. I still use the PCs with the Merrill Veritas monoblocs I have now. I upgraded to Cardas Golden Reference XLRs for the Veritas monblocs. Mostly for length, but stayed with the type of cable selected by Merrill. I believe Merrill recomended very high quality pure copper IC’s to maximize the very detailed, but realistic microdynamics these monoblocs produce.
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It’s also tricky to recommend cables and cords and not alienate your dealers that don’t carry that brand
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no more than theyre in the best position to design the best transistors, fets, tubes, interconnects, feet, jacks, knobs...
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Paul McGowan of PS Audio loves the Audioquest top of the line power cords, but he Realizes that people have different tastes, so he doesn’t put them in with their equipment. At least that’s what he says.
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You know, I think I would fully agree with you @roxy54 if most of the cables we are talking about cost less than $50 and very few more than $100 AND if we spoke of them mainly in terms of the materials, designs and workmanship employed. In other words if they were treated like normal wires. However we are talking about products that can cost as much or more than everything else in a system. These products are also treated as proprietary black box systems that reveal as little as possible about how they are made and what they are made of and what distinguishes one product from another, except for very general and vague market speak. They publish no test results, little or nothing about their physical make-up and often no rationale why we should even expect them to work.
We all know how much time and effort we put into researching and comparing products in the rest of our system. Many of us like to get under the hood and,usually, quality shows there as well as in the music made. Reviewers do the same for us, often including objective testing along with subjective impressions. Why do we tolerate less from cable manufacturers? Why excuse this category of product for making us play blind man's bluff? For these reasons I do not consider cable shopping part of the fun and am calling on equipment manufacturers to help us poor consumers make sense of all this. I believe they have the knowledge to do so and that the market would reward them for behaving like a no-nonsense square shooter. I like companies like that and bet you do too.
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@bruce19
Well, now you're starting in on a whole different subject, and what you're saying here is not wholly true either. Many manufacturers go into considerable detail about the construction of their power cords, and their reasons for making them the way they do. Whether we choose to believe what they say, or whether those techniques and materials actually make a difference is for the end user to decide.
Again, this is a different subject than asking why component manufacturers don't include fancy power cords of their own manufacture.
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@roxy54 I know. You are correct, some provide more than others but as was said in another thread it is the wild west. I don't even have language to intelligently discuss cables because there seems to be no agreed upon language to describe what matters and what not. I am agnostic about cables. I buy them but I can't say with certainty what any individual cable has added or detracted from my systems. I have thought I have heard improvements but then on another day I may feel otherwise. The reason is it takes a long time to switch a cable and the changes, if any are subtle. Can't speak for others but my aural memory is just not that strong. I can hear differences in components but cables generally elude me. I bet I am not the only one who could say this if we were honest. This is further aggravated by my own tendency for confirmation bias. When something costs a lot that knowledge affects me, sometimes in favor of the item and sometimes against it. Have not figured out how to do blind testing on myself.
I have learned a lot about hi-fi in the past 5 years since I retired and am pretty satisfied I have at least a fair notion of what is going on in most areas, bought a lot of stuff, built some amps, built some speakers, etc. but cables are like trying to study alchemy.
And I bet I am not alone.
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What's this "consensus" I keep reading about? Maybe here, but there are many, many other people who know that power cables produce no difference in the sound of your audio system.
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Why? Also, in the OP’s way of thinking, why stop at power cords? How about the interconnects, speaker, usb, Ethernet, and any other type of cable that might be connected to this device? Now you see the problem. Any of these cables can have a small to large impact on the sq of the system, so let the buyer decide with their own ears what sounds best
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What's this "consensus" I keep reading about? Maybe here, but there are many, many other people who know think that power cables produce no difference in the sound of your audio system.
There, I fixed that for you.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Naim Audio offers both optional power cord upgrades, as well as interconnect upgrades.
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+1 @mrskeptic
Oh but they spent over 1000 dollars on that power cord so it must've improved the sound of their amplifier. Yeah....
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As a life long skeptic…manufacturers carefully select components and wiring to optimize the performance of their devices…and advertise as such. Considering the margins involved and just how competitive their markets are, if they felt their device would perform appreciably better vs the competition with a certain power cord rather than the generic one they include, than they would include it and bake it into the price.
The high end is not about pinching pennies. Whether an amp is $22k or $23.5k would make little difference in sales volume if the $23.5k version clearly outperformed their competitors thanks to be paired with the perfect power cord. So, it would be my contention that if the power cord made the device sound better, it would be in the box. Just my opinion, of course.
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Classe provides a pretty good cable from DR Acoustics with the delta amplifiers
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Agree with @curiousjim about PS Audio. They recommend AudioQuest but they also offer their own regenerators, power cords and power conditioners. Luxman, like the others mentioned, has their own interconnects as well.
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Go ask Nelson Pass. We can hold a seance and ask the spirit of Sidney Smith (designed the classic Marantz tube gear of the Fifties) what he thinks about power cords. Ditto for Stewart Hegeman (designer of the classic HK Citation tube gear). I am sure these esteemed gentlemen would be appalled at the state of boutique wire today! To them a kettle cord was all that was required for their products! I would agree with them! After all, the power supply is where it all starts - not with the wire to the AC outlet!
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Though Pass Labs regularly uses Silent Source cables and cords (fairly expensive) for their audio show demo rooms....(they do include a nice quality generic cord with their equipment)...
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Tangentially, saw an interview with Nelson Pass, where he said Ray Kimber loaned him some speaker cables to try...he said they sounded great, but when he found out they were $54.000 a pair...
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AGD supplies high quality power cords with their amps. Don't know about their other products.
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Rogers High Fidelity in North Adams, MA offers a house made high quality power cord for their amps. I use it with their EFH 200 Mark II integrated w/.excellent results.
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The answer to your question is that most people in our opinion prefer their own power cords, ICs, tubes, etc., so why bother. Plus most people are buying components that are not reference level so to us it would be a waste of time. Buying better components has a greater sound improvement that cables, etc.
Happy Listening.
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It feels like we are gathering momentum here! Thanks for all the contributions. Here is a summary of what has been shared so far, just so future readers don't have to pick through the entire thread. I will do this periodically as a service. I hope you feel as I do that manufacturers who are affirmatively addressing this issue deserve your attention.
Audio manufacturers who include or recommend high end cables with their equipment
Burmester
Audio Note
PS Audio. They recommend AudioQuest but they also offer their own regenerators, power cords
Krell
Schiit
Musical Fidelity
Merrill Audio
Naim
Classe provides a pretty good cable from DR Acoustics with the delta amplifiers
Luxman, like the others mentioned, has their own interconnects as well.
Pass Labs regularly uses Silent Source cables and cords (fairly expensive) for their audio show demo rooms....(they do include a nice quality generic cord with their equipment).
AGD supplies high quality power cords with their amps. Don't know about their other products.
Rogers High Fidelity in North Adams, MA offers a house made high quality power cord for their amps.
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PS Audio recommends specific Audioquest cables and cords for their various products. But PS does not design manufacture and sell their own aftermarket cables and cords. They have not for many years now
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@chocaholic and @jasonbourne52 You both raise good points that make me think we should also include manufacturers on this list who affirmatively state that there will be no significant improvement in the performance of their product with anything beyond the stock power cord or interconnects they supply.
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