Why not?

Very good point @steakster !

@soix and @holmz Funny story about that. A friend lent me a pair of MIT Terminator2 speaker cables. I put them in my system, replacing some Crutchfield generic cables, and was amazed! Clarity, texture! I was so smitten I bought a pair of MIT Terminator2 interconnects just to see if what I was hearing could be further enhanced. Sure enough, better still. Enjoyed them for a couple of months, reveling in what I was hearing. Time came to give them back, which I really was sad to do. Determined i would have to get a set of my own. Replaced them with the old cable. Everything still sounded good. I could not find fault with the system.

@bruce19

1. Those MITs have an actual box on the end of them with a Zobel network filter
   1. They measure different as well as sound different
2. Speaker cables carry more current than any other part of the system, and are often long,

I would be very surprised if they were not different than, say, a lamp cord.

 

@holmz Ah, I see. You don’t trust your own ears. Got it.

I certainly do not trust them to make a decision on a cable after a 250 mile drive up to the shops that sell them, and know how it will sound in my room... With my speakers and electronics, and the power where I live, relative to what the power is in the shop that sells them..

 

You and @ghdprentice would have an interesting conversation as two scientists with polar opposite views on cables.

We are sort of trying to have some of that here.

 

Why not just try an aftermarket PC just to see/hear for yourself? What are you afraid of

Mostly blowing through funds, but it could be social signalling that I am not a sucker. Most of the social science types say that we do things without knowing the real reasons why we do them. So I am open to possibilities there.

 

— that your comfortable and convenient world of theories and measurements might implode if your ears tell you they’re hearing actual improvements? Or maybe you won’t find any improvements or maybe even decreased performance. Either way, that’s called learning — a concept I’d think a scientist would embrace

What you describe is not “learning” so much as its is “experiencing”. What would I have learned?

It is a somewhat more common theme to want to know why things work the way that they do. And also to have theories and laws to describe it’ll, so as to be able to repeat the process.

Would could probably make an analogy with wine. If the SO and I are having a certain meal, I know that the Tempranillo or Grenache will be great with it, from experience. I am not exactly 100% interested in how the ph and tannins, etc. combine, but if I was a vitaculturalist I probably would be keening interested in that.

And the same people consistently produce the drops year on year, and can explain how they do it.

 

Would you, or anyone else, agree that:

1. That the power supply stability/stiffness is primarily what we want to be as stiff as possible?
2. As the power supply capacitance gets larger and large, that the DC voltage would be more and more stable?
3. In my case, running off of a battery would be the more preferable option as opposed to a putting those funds into a power cable?

 

 

@thyname

Do you remember @almarg? (RIP) He was a widely respected audiophile in our Audigon community. With a doctorate in EE, he had been awarded several utility patents over his career.

He believed that technology progresses - from anecdotal to evidentiary. His approach was to try to figure out the ’why & how’ variables might influence sound quality. It was a fun for him. Like solving a mystery - or a puzzle

He sounds like he was an interesting and likeable fellow.

I make am probably not so gracious, but I’ll try:

1. If one wants to avoid spending heaps of time and $ on ICs, then they may want to consider XLR/balanced equipment.
2. If they want to avoid spending time and money on speaker cables, then may want to consider running mono blocks (with short speaker cables) and using amps that drive complex loads easily
   1. and consider using speakers that are easy loads to drive.
3. If they want to avoid power cord dramas, and power grid concerns, then they may want to look for manufacturers that claim that their systems do all the filtering and supply, and have have “overbuilt” power supplies.

I cannot imagine that a cord that is connected on an expensive outlet, into and expensive input on the amp, would be better than using the same cord attached directly to the amp in a captive sense.
And also wire nutted directly to the incoming wall power.

it is not a vacuum cleaner, where we want to move it room to room.

All those extra interfaces are places for trouble, and outlets that grip better, with no corroding materials have an advantage, as well as inlet power connections that do the same. They are just a lot more complicated and engineered than a captive cord, and they try to get back what is lost by not using a captive cord… or at least not give up any more ground.

 

@holmz I said…

— that your comfortable and convenient world of theories and measurements might implode if your ears tell you they’re hearing actual improvements? Or maybe you won’t find any improvements or maybe even decreased performance. Either way, that’s called learning — a concept I’d think a scientist would embrace

To which you reply…

What you describe is not “learning” so much as its is “experiencing”. What would I have learned?

Wow. Just…wow. If you’re saying you can’t learn through new experiences we are truly on different planets. I’ve learned a helluva lot more by keeping an open mind and listening to lots of different equipment than I ever learned by looking at measurements. At this point I’ll take @thyname advice and just give up as there’s clearly no point going any further with this and leave with some Pink Floyd lyrics that seem appropriate…

The bleeding hearts and the artists make their stand
And when they’ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it’s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger’s wall

 

@holmz I said…

— that your comfortable and convenient world of theories and measurements might implode if your ears tell you they’re hearing actual improvements? Or maybe you won’t find any improvements or maybe even decreased performance. Either way, that’s called learning — a concept I’d think a scientist would embrace

To which you reply…

What you describe is not “learning” so much as its is “experiencing”. What would I have learned?

Wow. Just…wow. If you’re saying you can’t learn through new experiences we are truly on different planets

I ended it with a question… which was, “What would I have learned?“

It is like going to a magic show and seeing a trick. What do I learn there, from that experience?
I do not really believe that the fellow saws the woman in half, and then she is put back together. And I certainly do not believe that I should try it at home.

I have no idea how he did it.
I only know that magic tricks seem real.

So what would I learn with the power cord? That it seems to work?
I would still not know how or why it works, or if is more ythan psychology.

 

Listening to some power cord, is not like riding a bicycle, or learning to ski, where the experience is learning.
With a powercord, we cannot have someone watch us from the lodge, or at the velodrome and ourselves and everyone else can all think together, “that person can ski (or ride a bike).”

With the power cord all we have some testimony that someone believes it works.
So we know that “they think it works”… in their place… with their gear. But that does not tell us if it work on our gear, with our place in the power grid.

It would be like the bicycle rider talking about the feeling of wind through the hair. But if we have not felt it, then how would we know?

If we can see them riding, and we can see their hair blowing, then we can more easily believe that their hair is being blown by the wind from the riding. And we also know how to ride, then their feelings are something that can empathise with or otherwise understand.

With the power cord all we have some testimony that someone believes it works. So we know that “they think it works”… in their place… with their gear. But that does not tell us if it work on our gear, with our place in the power grid.

@holmz Hence you yourself have just presented the perfect rationale for trying a PC in your own system, but you refuse to do that for some reason. Whatever. To each his own. Peace out.

Line up all the cables, do blind testing and publish the results.  If there really is an improvement in sound, it should be apparent to all, or at least most.  I suspect very few cable manufacturers will allow their feet to be held to the fire.  

@soix

There are doer’s and bystander’s…this thread yet again shown us the clear distinction between the two types :-)

 

With the power cord all we have some testimony that someone believes it works. So we know that “they think it works”… in their place… with their gear. But that does not tell us if it work on our gear, with our place in the power grid.

@holmz Hence you yourself have just presented the perfect rationale for trying a PC in your own system, but you refuse to do that for some reason. Whatever. To each his own. Peace out

I probably have better things to spend money on, then fixing a problem that I am not sure I have.

And if it is mostly psychological, or if I think that it is psychological, then it is already doubtful to work - or doubtful that I would admit that it works.

Thirdly - as has been mentioned a few times, even the manufacture says that in my system, the battery option is better than a power cord.

So why would I half-ass it? By doing a cable… when that is deemed as substandard to the battery?

 

Line up all the cables, do blind testing and publish the results.  If there really is an improvement in sound, it should be apparent to all, or at least most.  I suspect very few cable manufacturers will allow their feet to be held to the fire

Yeah @bigtwin - that is just more work than people want to do. They only want us to believe what they believe, and not show that is repeatable.

ROXY54
I the manufacturer isn't an expert in ALL aspects of their equipment, they won't be seeing one red cent of my hard-earned saving.

A few additions/things to consider:

 

1) Puritan power conditioners come with an excellent power cord (maybe because they use a different plug in their device) and allow you to upgrade it when you order  it

2) Rega's tonearm cable runs straight through form the wires that connect to your cartridge into an RCA cable/connectors. No tonearm cables, removable headshells with plugs or other points of sound deterioration in the signal path. They also have an adapter plug into their PSU that is hard wired into a wall wart. No cable cost whatsoever!

3) Sutherland phono stages provide NO power cord.. He feels that anyone choosy enough to buy one of his phono stages has opinions about their favorite cord. BTW - he doesn't recommend going crazy with them. If I recall he was talking a couple hundred bucks.

yes, Pass Labs, who everyone seems to like to mention, used to recommend that your cables should not cost more than your components...

Regarding the "Harley" post : I had a friend who was the sales manager of a large motorcycle dealer.  He told me that the first thing they did when they traded in a bike was to remove all the accessories.  Why GIVE the customer the accessories when they could SELL them the accessories ?

Ayre cables are Cardas.....when I got all my Ayre stuff, I got their cables as well which didn't work for me.

I've been using Shunyata gear for power distributors for my reference system and for recording.  I recommend going to their web site and selecting the about button to see their youtube video.  The founder has a really good explanation for the importance and science of providing clean power.

Hope this helps.

@esarhaddon 

That makes no sense. Next.

makes great sense.  maybe you'll learn something.  😃

It makes no sense. Amp manufacturers supply power cords. People like specialist power cords and are free to buy them. OP’s assertion that amp makers should supply what are essentially specialized boutique cables is silly. End users like to choose their own, and even if the maker supplied a special cable, it might not work optimally in the end user’s system. as others have said. So what is there for me to learn @lovepianos?

I have not read all of the other posts so I may be simply repeating what others have already said. That being said, I think an issue directly relevant to your question is that we all have different tastes and perceptions of what sounds best. I think my system sounds good and if I didn't I would keep working at it until I was satisfied - if you are ever really satisfied for more than a day of so after which you continue looking for improvements. If I think any equipment manufacturer that attempts to tell its customers what sounds best with their equipment will not be well received. We each decide what sounds best and when we think we have achieved synergy with the different pieces of equipment, tweaks, etc. we own or we continue our search -which is really what this hobby is all about- until we find what we think sounds best and no one else can decide that for any one of us. It is in the interest of every equipment manufacturer to keep as many options for sound coloration open in the use of their equipment. 

 

 CORRECTION- 

"If I think any equipment manufacturer that attempts to tell its customers what sounds best with their equipment will not be well received."

TO 

 "I think any equipment manufacturer that attempts to tell its customers what sounds best with their equipment will not be well received." 

+1 @pmiller115 

@roxy54 You make two seemingly contradictive comments in a row. First, you say my comment makes no sense and then you seem to agree with me. I approve of your second comment stating that end users prefer to make their own choices on aftermarket items. My only problem was the comment that was previously made about High-end manufacturers don't even care about the quality of their components enough to even consider these items. In reply, I stated why should I pay $10,000 to $100,000 for an item if their engineers haven't even calculated what kind of effect something might have on their equipment or don't even care what kind of accessories they provide the customer. I think it is possible that you didn't see to which comment I was answering when I made my original statement.

Why would a battery supply work better on the nagra if it is designed properly there would be no need, according to your way of thinking.

If designed properly, in theory, batteries can provide cleaner, more consistent power, avoiding the noise of the power company. Even the best designed power conditioner can’t filter all the noise.

I realize battery powered audio equipment can be better, I was making a point that some here say if a power supply is designed properly it will filter out all the power line noise, and this is simply not true.

My first mid-fi amp and preamp came with really crummy power cords. My Primaluna came with a very thick and I assume large gauge conductor. The only one I have owned that came with a Hulk cable!  😀