@hilde45 at first I said I would never now I am! Lol. Definitely understand
WHY IS THERE SO MUCH HATE FOR THE HIGH END GEAR ON AUDIO GEAR?
It seems like when I see comments on high end gear there is a lot of negativity. I have been an audiophile for the last 20 years. Honestly, if you know how to choose gear and match gear a lot of the high end gear is just better. When it comes to price people can charge what they want for what they create. If you don’t want it. Don’t pay for it. Look if you are blessed to afford the best bear and you can get it. It can be very sonically pleasing. Then do it. Now if you are also smart and knowledgeable you can get high end sound at mid-fi prices then do it. It’s the beauty of our our hobby. To build a system that competes with the better more expensive sounding systems out there. THOUGHTS?
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@tony1954 people can tell us what to post and then we we so no way they say we are nasty. Look the internet allows us to use our fingers and thumbs with reckless abandon. |
Myself being an Audiophile for 40+ years ,and owning a Audio store for a decade. I know build quality. And shortcuts taken in both speakers ,as well as electronics. many Audiophile ,or most Donot know about say the many shortcuts - being cheap in the Internal Xover , in electronics many have pretty cases and average at best build quality, and living on its laurels of the past .and trust me there are many , and many $$ paid for play reviews . I have been to many audio shows and horror stories from quality small companies who could not say pay$50k in adverts to get glorious reviews ,sadly many went out of business. The politics has been a open wound for a long time. Markup many times is Waay over in electronics some charging up to 10 x what it cost them in parts , yes R&D counts , cables some 20x markup. This is why many people get pissed off because of a lot of Greed. 20 years ago many companies were owned by True audiophiles , not corporations, which I won’t mention any names. Sad but true , people do your home work ,ask questions ,and inspect the parts ,brand name do count then say OEM brand which is a cop out for lower quality, This is my sole opinion and viewpoints be a wise 🦉 owl and seek out Best Buy for your $$ spend, and System synergies is most important , Happy listening music 🎶 🎼 🎵. |
@tony1954 , good point, LOL.
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@audioman58 , also a good point. Everyone has a budget. Choose wisely, but enjoy what you choose. I would never crap on someone's system, but I do get tired of being told by a novice what I can and can't hear. |
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@audioman58 definitely understand that part. I got into this by happenstance. You learn a lot through your experiences. We all have different levels of those experiences. I met a guy Dave Baskin some years ago. A dealer in Whithouse, Texas. He had a speaker bucket list and he was a high end dealer. He was dying with ALS and he built him a home listening theater cottage. Behind his main house. Amazing place. Had 600k worth of Audio in there. That’s when I realized long ago. This audio is only to be enjoyed once we die it gets sold and they move on. He passed away 9 years ago but I got to hear the best stuff on some of my long visits. We all have different experiences. I’m going to send mines enjoying this not arguing with people. |
@calvinj It seems that you have stuck a stick into an anthill. So many post removals😶 |
It’s old news. I drive a VW and you’re crazy for driving a Porsche. I drive a Porsche and think you’re stupid for driving a Lamborghini. I drive a Lambo and can’t understand someone driving a McLaren. He must have a little di k you laugh and say to yourself. I have a Node and you have a DCS Rossini Apex. You must be stupid for sending that much! No one can hear the difference anyway you say to yourself. |
@curiousjim you are spot on my man! |
@curiousjim , I own a mint 2012 Jaguar XK convertible w/ 33k miles on it. It's parked in the garage for the winter (need to put the battery conditioner on it, actually)..... It's as exotic as I need. It's nice, yeah, it's pretty fast, just a very nice, fun car. I'm happy. I don't need anything more exotic. Does what it says on the package. My point is......it's "good enough", and really, it's only me that needs to pleased with it. I've never owned, nor driven a Ferrari. Nor a Lambo, McLaren (though there is a guy in town with a baby blue one), etc....I'm sure their specs are better. I'm sure they are more expensive, and heck, they're certainly "better". I'm happy with what I have. I'm not jealous. I bought a nice piece of equipment, I don't need to justify it, it's exactly what I wanted, kind of a childhood dream that should be the end of it. I wish more Audio folks would adopt that mindset. I know this probably didn't make any sense, but hopefully ..... Buy what you like, enjoy what you bought. *shrugs* |
When I was a young lad, I saved up money from my part-time job and put my hifi equipment on layaway (from a high end store) and paid for everything in cash. Sometimes, it took the full 90-days to pay it off, but I did it. I don't think stores do layaways now, The equipment was a little above my league, but I made it work. I never went into credit card debt---I was so proud of my system (still am). |
@hilde45 and a good many of them seem he$$bent on wrecking the planet and finding another….. Perhaps like a pareto optimal utility function, there is a Lagrange point for ego….. |
@knock1 i see a lot this. I’m not trying to ring the ants out but somehow I always manage too. |
If you think that’s bad, you should peruse the "Audiophile" sub on Reddit. I recently came across a member who commented that all digital source equipment sounds identical, and that streamers are therefore audiorack jewelry for the rich. You wouldn’t believe the amount of support that comment garnered among the Reddit audiophile community. |
@calvinj I have to agree at least on Audiogon. I attended the launch of the Lampi Horizon DAC in Feb 2022. After the launch, I posted my review of what I heard. The hate and negative comments caused me to ask Audiogon to take down the thread which they did. It boiled down to people criticizing why anyone would want a $50k DAC....you have to be an idiot to spend that kind of money. The funny thing is all I was trying to do was post my comments on what I heard. It just wasn't worth it for me to read the vitriol. I have seen other comments from many people on higher-end equipment. Everyone has a budget for audio. Whether it is a $10k system or a $300k system to each their own. I am sure the $10k system sounds great in their listening room. I just don't get why people negatively comment on higher-end audio on this site. In most cases, those people have never heard it in person a particular high-end amp, speaker or DAC. That is probably why I spend more time studying audio on What's Best Forum. Enjoy what you have but there is no need to trash others who can afford whatever they desire. |
Yes I do go to what’s best forum sometimes. They are less judgmental on the higher end equipment. I own a 35k Infigo DAC that is state of the art. Hans Looman actually worked with the inventor of the Ess Sabre Dac chip itself. So he knows how to get the best out of it. There is a lot of engineering that goes into the higher end gear that people dismiss. However the important part is how it’s sounds. Most people don’t have equipment that is even resolving enough to even hear the differences in sound. Like have extremely low noise floors, greater soundstage width and depth. Extreme detail retrieval and increased dynamic range. There are levels to this and when you get to hear them you see why some people are willing to pay a premium for that you are their experience. It’s kind of funny on Audiogon you get them calling you crazy for spending. Then on what’s best there can be a sense of uppityness at times where they think they can say whatever they want without push back. Sometimes their systems are their identity. |
A very commonly held fallacy that something more expensive is better and it's not always the case. In the stereo world, it's riddled with expectation bias and having something more expensive is expected to sound better but products from places like Schiit prove that's not always the case. Would a pair of $60,000 Magicos sound the same as if they sold direct and were only $35,000? Of course they would but lots of people would say they didn't. |
@heretobuy +1 I agree |
Those who have the money are not waiting for anyone’s approval or validation. The only one’s you are hearing complain are those that can’t afford it. They don’t understand or relate to the luxury market. And so, who cares? You hear about it only if you pay attention to it. I don’t give them any attention and wondering why anyone else does. Life is full of choices… |
I've learned a lot from this forum and have received some helpful advice, and for that I am grateful. I've also noticed that there are those who post here that seem to have a lot of misplaced emotion and are self appointed authorities on everything. It takes a rare talent to have a firm opinion on almost any component that is mentioned on this forum. Some folks can offer very confident reviews of components which they've clearly never had a chance to experience Everyone has a certain budget for an audio system either because of financial limitations or priorities. I think it's all about trying to maximize the quality within a particular budget. Finding equipment that offers a good value for the price. I'm reasonably happy with my system. I understand however, that if someone has the ability to spend twice what my system cost in all likelihood, they are going to get a better result. That doesn't make me resentful or require me to engage in the fiction that it's easy to buy components that will outperform gear that cost three times as much. I think this forum would be a better place if everyone actually answered, the question posed based on real experience and without personal invective that said, some of the overheated arguments are pretty amusing |
Pardon me for not taking out a 2nd on a home I don't own....😏 I don't hate mega$ audio items at all; 'pushing the envelope' is pretty much expected in any serious ventures. Look at SpaceX, they just lost not only a booster (I think the 'hot' option in stage separation is not a great concept...imho, but I'm not a rocket scientist, and will applaud if it can be made to work....but would likely say 'no' to a free ride for the foreseeable....) but the spacecraft itself. But that's how Musk & Co. go.... As for personal audio, I'm essentially pleased and OK with my 'junk'. It makes pleasant noises to my ears, as f'd up as they are. You're more than welcome to come on down for a sess, given that any rudeness will be tolerated for as long as you might expect. "I don't like it." will be enough, but will require some detailed observations. Meanwhile...'run what you brung'....
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While I am impressed with the myriad of gear available and it's advancements in audio sound I can't bring myself to pay these abhorrent prices for so little gain. I'm in my middle 60's with substantial hearing loss due to listening for years at high volumes. I have dabbled for decades in audiophile equipment, but honestly, can't hear the difference between a $2000 AVR and $10000 in separates and I've owned both. The difference between $1500 bookshelves with a good sub and $5-10 thousand towers is so minute it doesn't justify the cost. I'll stick to my Marantz Cinema AVR with Kef and B&W speakers and be extremely happy with the result. The rest of you keep posting and I'll keep reading. Thanks for the hours of enjoyment |
I believe the 'hate' is more to being uninformed or worse... I am not wiling to pay stratospheric prices (e.g. $10K network streamers, $10K speakers etc) but I have no issue with people willing to pay that. It's their own monies. This is called the FREE MARKET at work. No different that cars that cost $40K vs $400K and up... |
I'm a aerospace engineer working with a bunch of electrical engineers. I trust them that they know what they are doing. When it comes to audio gear, I asked them why two things (tubes or say capacitors) with exactly the same measured electrical values sound different. They smiled at me and said, "We are engineers. We can only measure what we can measure, but sometimes that isn't the whole story". |
First and foremost is you are dealing with MEN. "My cables bigger than your cable". With many years of marriage to the right woman along with having wonderful daughters I became a human being. OP, you are dealing with the same problem women face on any topic, men are annoying and eventually resort to all caps. :>) |
It's the first deadly sin: Pride. "I'm better than you so how can you have anything better than I have?' Clearly you cannot, therefore do not. Greed: "I want what's mine- even if you think it's yours" Lying: to themselves and others about what they are, want and have. With a hearty eff you thrown in for good measure. Anger: See above Eff you. |
I've been in this enjoyable hobby for nearly 50 years now and I've yet to tire of it because the hobby is about getting us closer to the music we love. Audio is very subjective. Lots of differing opinions on how much one should spend on a system. The bottom line is that we all have different budgets and should trust our own ears above all else when it comes to putting an audio system together. Happy Holidays! 😊👍 |
I think I’m a bit confused. Who and where are these people that are “dissing” high end audio? I guess I don’t spend enough time here (and other forums) to see it . Are we talking about the internet at large? But I tell ya, you don’t have to look very far to find folks “dissing” other folks’ “mid-fi”. Double edged sword may apply here in this case. I lust for “high end” gear as much as the next guy (although some may not admit it) but I buy what I can afford, modest as it is, and am thankful for it. I do love hearing other folks’ high end systems and also reading about there high end adventures.
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Dissing high end audio is stupid...high end gear are just more refined and more effective design ... We can criticize price but i am incompetent to do so really ... We can as i did observe that there is a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold , and we can cross this threshold with relatively low prices component studying acoustics and controlling vibrations and the noise floor level ... We cannot reach top acoustic satisfaction treshold with a low cost system ... At best we learn how to go nearer to it with some other low cost component ... thats all ... I learned how to be happy with what i have by optimizing all the gear working conditions ... Those who are ignorant feel envy or live in denial and frustration or believe in price tags or believe that their system work optimally when it really did not because they were able to afford high end but without being able to understand how to use it in optimal conditions ... Acoustics concepts and electrical and mechamical embeddings controls rules over anything ... Sorry for the bad news ... Be happy with what you have, learn how to work with it to reach an optimal level commensurate with the gear design quality level...It will not be high end maximum acoustic satisfaction threshold for sure but the minimal satisfaction threshold is already a paradise ... Happiness dont measure in dollars , and can be engineered by your own creativity ...Develop yours BEFORE upgrading ... |
Those that know, simply know. Those that notice and listen closely (or those that know how to listen into the music) get it. In the end, all this is actually a good problem. A clear reflection of our time, in that it is now actually possible to assemble a really decent system for around 2k - hell, even 1k. But that does not in any way negate the truth in what you’re saying. Well made components from top to bottom still sound exceptional and unique. Personally, I’m that mid-fi guy looking for deals and researching -trying where I can - for synergy. But if it wasn’t for hi end offerings, equipment that is art+science+soul through and though, then all other companies would have nothing for which to strive and compare. |
If it was earned through good, honest work and/or innovation rather then inheritance, I have never felt inclined to begrudge a wealthy person their prosperity. They were willing to work a lot harder than I ever cared to, so they deserve to reward themselves by spending it any way they choose. That being said, I also don't believe that the amount spent on gear qualifies one to consider themselves more of an audiophile then us lower tier folks. That's like telling someone in an argument to scream louder because it makes them 'more right'. |
@mahgister i researched the hell out of every component speaker and sub in my system using the knowledge that I gained in this hobby over the years. For example my Gato speakers were designed by a former senior designer at gamut. I researched them to the hilt. Say that they were similar to a speaker twice the cost. Realized he designed that speaker for another company as well I ordered it. 9 years later still my reference. My amps and Dac have design elements that have zero noise floor and implement design elements to provide power and limit distortion at every turn. I was the ear for the cabling that we use at the company. So even though the system is expensive I just didn’t pick stuff because it was expensive but it met the design and performance elements that I sought. I have room challenges so it needed to perform in my conditions and it does that well. It’s not about what you spend. Design, performance, environments, personal tastes and equipment matching are all important. Truth of the matter is some of the higher end equipment build quality and design lows it to achieve things sonically that most other equipment just can’t reach. However you can still get pleasing sound out of a well put together system without spending a crazy amount of money. |
@rcm1203 i agree. I go to WBF and because the guys there spend more I literally had a guy that was in here and there tell me what I wouldn’t do or say they there. It just wreaked of uppityness there. One of the most knowledgeable audiophiles I know has a modest system that just sounds amazing. He is happy and enjoys it. That’s all it should be about in the first place. |
@riccitone the beauty of this hobby is that we build a system and try to get premium performance sometimes without paying premium price. You wanna maximize your dollar and performance. My speakers for instance perform well with the higher priced gear that I have but I bought them because if the research I did and they fit my tastes. There will always be trade offs and tastes preferences. |
@campoly a few years ago I left the forums because of the snarky comments about high end gear. I didn’t put a lot of stock in the peoples comments but when trying to discuss it on forums it devolved into personal attacks or people are idiots to spend a lot of money on gear. People think I’m trolling because if this post and others. The reason why I post on this topic because it went back to the reason I left in the first place. I used to have great conversation about gear, systems and tweaks as I grew in the hobby as was able to afford the higher priced gear. Then when I discussed higher priced gear on Audiogon in particular. I saw the snide comments. I don’t care about the comments but it would destroy the reasonable legitimate conversation and listening experiences of the folks that were interested. I’m more agitated that it destroyed serious discourse and conversation more than anything. |
@mteetank great post. I’m laughing 😂! At the end of the day. I enjoy my system and the music. Music is the soundtrack to life. |
