WHY IS THERE SO MUCH HATE FOR THE HIGH END GEAR ON AUDIO GEAR?
It seems like when I see comments on high end gear there is a lot of negativity. I have been an audiophile for the last 20 years. Honestly, if you know how to choose gear and match gear a lot of the high end gear is just better. When it comes to price people can charge what they want for what they create. If you don’t want it. Don’t pay for it. Look if you are blessed to afford the best bear and you can get it. It can be very sonically pleasing. Then do it. Now if you are also smart and knowledgeable you can get high end sound at mid-fi prices then do it. It’s the beauty of our our hobby. To build a system that competes with the better more expensive sounding systems out there. THOUGHTS?
When men were men and dinos roamed the earth there was Usenet populated by knowledgeable guys having knowledgeable civilized discussions. It was naturally self selecting cuz you had to be an academic or work for a think tank to know about Usenet. Then came America On Line (AOL) and the appearance of the 1000 posts a week guy who got drunk on suddenly having this megaphone for his opinions. The knowledgeable people fled cuz they had better things to do and here we are.
You can still find thoughtful knowledgeable guys on Audiogon, if you dig. Just like you have to dig through the dreck to find the good gear.
* The systems part of Audiogon proves there are plenty of guys carefully putting together great systems.
@gbmcleod@mahgisteri agree fellas. A lot of people have no experience with high end equipment. I have heard a lot. I have owned some. I have also had 1 to 2 extended in home demos that allowed me to hear and know the differences. Some see price and automatically shut down. Can’t do it that way.
Envy results from passivity, lack of creativity, fetischism of the gear, gullibility to marketing, ignorance of basic acoustics ( no not room acoustic merely ) ...
I am so proud of my 700 bucks system and the ways i imagined to improve it that i suffer from the opposite sin : pride ...
Being here i learn about my own specific ignorance and it help curing me of this other sin ....😉
I don’t have anything against very high end gear that produces exquisite sounds. I just don’t know anyone that possesses anything like that. If a high end audio show was within a reasonable drive from me (say, in Columbus, or Cincinnati), I would probably go just for the experience of “what’s possible”. I would love to hear a Dan D’Augustino amp or DarTZeel mono-blocks played through equally impressive loudspeakers, just to experience it. That would be a thrill.
@bob540imdefinitely understand your point. Everyone doesn’t have a hifi store near them. Some don’t have a show that is close to them either. That is one thing about our hobby some are buying things unseen and unheard. Great point. Some don’t have the ability to even demo the really higher end gear for reference.
I'm surprised that a dealer would need to ask this question if there's any real selling that takes place in his business. Human nature dictates that the more comfortable we are with our decisions for everything from stuff to life's forks in the road, the less negativity we feel for differing opinions. If anything, if we offer support to differing opinions about other folks' gear, we can learn from their experience and choices. It could be as simple as differing hearing and listening abilities, one of which we cannot change, or they may have helped us find our next aha moment. The past two trips I've made to high end stores have left me feeling really good about my two systems at home, even though they cost me a fraction of the $100k plus systems at the dealers. Maybe my satisfaction comes from knowing I could easily spend a lot more, but am amazed at how good my gaggle of gear sounds to my ears. But I will keep looking and listening.......
“When it comes to price people can charge what they want for what they create. If you don’t want it. Don’t pay for it.”
Dead wrong. Economic systems are not something handed down from God: they are social constructs. If you don’t like $1.2M audio systems, instead of not buying it, change the system that caters to millionaires. You are just being an apologist for laissez faire capitalism nothing more.
That said:
I’ve been at this hobby for 55 years. There was a guy named Hafler who built Dynaco into a little juggernaut of high quality - affordable!!! - gear for the lumpen proletariat types like myself. Hundreds of thousands sold. Rebuilt Dyna units are still the best bang for the buck out there today.
Prices today are a reflection of the (passive, like you maybe?) acceptance of the grossly unequal economic structure we have in the U.S. today. It doesn’t have to be that way.
This is the main reason why I don’t bother with new gear, I just keep the stuff I have refurbished and in top running order. I’m here in audiogon mostly out of curiosity or FOMO. But I will put my 38-67 year old gear up against anything on the market today and while it may not be the best according to some, it will righteously acquit itself.
Human nature dictates that the more comfortable we are with our decisions for everything from stuff to life's forks in the road, the less negativity we feel for differing opinions.
Great truth! thanks ...
I’ve been at this hobby for 55 years. There was a guy named Hafler who built Dynaco into a little juggernaut of high quality - affordable!!! - gear for the lumpen proletariat types like myself. Hundreds of thousands sold. Rebuilt Dyna units are still the best bang for the buck out there today.
Prices today are a reflection of the (passive, like you maybe?) acceptance of the grossly unequal economic structure we have in the U.S. today. It doesn’t have to be that way.
This is the main reason why I don’t bother with new gear, I just keep the stuff I have refurbished and in top running order. I’m here in audiogon mostly out of curiosity or FOMO. But I will put my 38-67 year old gear up against anything on the market today and while it may not be the best according to some, it will righteously acquit itself.
Economic systems are not something handed down from God: they are social constructs. If you don’t like $1.2M audio systems, instead of not buying it, change the system that caters to millionaires. You are just being an apologist for laissez faire capitalism nothing more ... Prices today are a reflection of the (passive, like you maybe?) acceptance of the grossly unequal economic structure we have in the U.S. today. It doesn’t have to be that way.
You're being silly because it's essentially impossible for any of us to change our economic system. But given that you're so dissatisfied with it, why do you remain a passive victim to a system you dislike? There are other countries that operate under different systems. Some are democracies, too. It's a big world!
@pickindougi ask this question because I’m an audiophile first. I wonder how people actually think about this. People have a right to hate the high end. Just wanted to know why. What are their experiences. What’s the mindset. Do they have certain concerns. Have they even heard Hugh end gear at all. How much have they heard etc to have the opinion. Will any amount of them hearing it change their mind no matter how well it performs. Just thoughts. I’m a hobbyist first before anything. I love the music first over everything.
The crisis in the last 4 years demonstrated that there is no democracies, only grey nuance of totalitarian fashions...Oligarchs and lobbies rules...
Even in Canada ...
You’re being silly because it’s essentially impossible for any of us to change our economic system. But given that you’re so dissatisfied with it, why do you remain a passive victim to a system you dislike? There are other countries that operate under different systems. Some are democracies, too. It’s a big world!
The interesting point made by unreceivedogma was to me describing how the price levels of audio gear reflect our dissonnant North American society classes of ultra rich and poors with a decreasing mid class loosing his grip on reality , thinking democracy exist ...Wait till the next crisis to see whats left of democracy...
The difference between totalitarian China and Canada and america decrease politically and dont increase... Welcome in a mix of 1984 and the best of the world, compliment of big corporations ... A,I. is there for our own good now ...😁
Some people are desperate to be relevant. They’re latched on to ab element where they have some level of familiarity with a subject and can express the "right" words to appear to have credibility. Being a "giant killer" is the most rewarding for those desperate to be relevant. Being the "David" in a world filled with "Goliaths" is the ultimate high (actually low?) for this individual. The bigger the target to publicly humiliate, the greater the adrenaline rush. Excellent, high performance, beautifully constructed, commercially successful products, that have earned a high satisfaction and adoption rate with their owners, thus generating referrals, get batted around by the highly passionate dude aiming to protect the world from, in his view, bad sound or poor price/performance ratio.
Another possible explanation may be these are, indeed, not very nice people. They have undetected crimes against their fellow man in which they have not accepted responsibility for. This creates an (almost) uncontrollable desire to find others more devious, sinister, and morally corrupt than they are. So, if THEIR crime is an 8 on the 10 scale, they are looking for a 9, or higher out there. Unable to locate the "9" they are looking for, they only find a "4" -- the company that makes gear that does not align with their value structure. So, to cleanse themselves of their personal transgressions and find a more dispicable individual(s), they elevate the status of the "4" to a ’9" and "educate" the world about it in the most energetic means possible. Hence, gross exaggerations, profound blanket statements, general devaluation, and invalidation of a product, and everything connected to it.
I think some of us fail to acknowledge the intangibles associated with a purchase. These could include esthetics, build quality, manufacturer’s story/history, prestige, or fear of being embarrassed if they don’t own "the right stuff". In this regard, there are no right or wrong answers if, in owner’s mind, they got what they paid for.
Many times "upgrades" are geometrically proportional. A speaker at 2x the price of a $400 pair of speakers is $800. A speaker a 2x the price of a $40k speaker is $80k. In BOTH cases the price was twice as much. Did performance improve by a factor of 2? I think we’ll find some consistency here and the math didn’t work in either case to provide 2x the SQ.
In a world of free enterprise, markets will dictate the success of a commercial product. If it’s successful there is some acknowledged and measurable value there.
Hate is nothing more than a negative response to fear, whether it's fear of someone's appearance or ideas being different (and possibly better than one's own), fear of missing out (sour grapes reaction), personal economic circumstances vs others (keeping up with the Jones as well as overly prideful), and many other countless fears ending in phobia. People who are reasonably comfortable in their own skin are not afraid of being wrong, freely admit when they are, and learn from the experience.
"If you don’t like $1.2M audio systems, instead of not buying it, change the system that caters to millionaires."
"Prices today are a reflection of the (passive, like you maybe?) acceptance of the grossly unequal economic structure we have in the U.S. today. It doesn’t have to be that way."
So, I am curious. If, "it doesn’t have to be that way", then what are you suggesting people do to "change the system that caters to millionaires", other than voting with their wallets?
For me audio hobby was never about the "best" gear...
It was about the optimization of what we can afford for the sake of music ...
It was not about the wallet size but about creativity ...
It was not about "upgrades" but about the three working dimensions ways of control : mechanical,electrical and acoustical ...
I just listened to a 500,000 bucks system on youtube , very well known dude , and his room is atrocious, it is audible and clear in spite of his panels ... fatiguing system not because of the high tech gear but because he dont use the right method to make it more musical ... details are not music ... Price tag dont beat acoustics knowledge at all ...
Then listening to his system compared to mine at 700 bucks make me proud and happy ...😊 Incredible ... Because so good his system could be some big defect undetected by him even if it is evident are in my face not in his face because he look ALWAYS for more details not for acoustic musicality ...Acoustics is about musicality not details given by the gear piece he sell ...
We must quit branded name fetichism of the gear and of the tool, study acoustics which is not mere room acoustic panels ...
This hobby is about learning music and acoustic experience not about the 40 amplifiers someone could afford to try and compared ... Ridiculous obsession with no real learning ... The user manual is not acoustics book...
I learned a lot about the way to make any gear system optimally musical relatively to his level of quality/price for sure ...my gear value so good the design is are not Mile Lavigne ballpark ...( i respect him because he know a lot , it is evident when you see his dedicated acoustic room )
I was in the obligation to create a concept for audiophile because it does not existed here in this forum before i wrote it : minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold starting point which is determined by some optimal ratio between all acoustics factors implied for some gear/room/ears...This threshold passed is enough to be in sonic heaven with no frustration...Better dont means satisfying ...
Then we must learn how to work on these acoustic factors with the gear we own BEFORE any upgrade, if our gear is synergetical to begin with for sure...WE must train our ears with what we do first and last , not with what we buy ...
To do that we must identify these factors one by one in our system/room/ears and look how we can improve them one by one and all together ... Be it reverberation time, reflective ratio and location, dispersion , sound source dimension , listener location and envelopment, crosstalk, transients, dynamic, bass, pressure distribution zones, the 5 factors determining timbre , immersiveness in headphone and speakers...
Wwe must learn also how vibrations and resonance destruct the acoustic experience and how powerfully destructive is a too higher electrical noise floor of the house and of each part of the system ... We must learn about EMI and unusual device to control the room atmosphere as ionization and schumann generators...We must become creative and think ...Forgetting to be passive consumers frustrated because we could not afford a Dartzeel amplifier ... I dont need that to be proud and in a relative sonic heaven .....Trust me happiness can only be born of thinking and creativity not from money most of the times ...Money can help at best ...
Suppress big corporations ...Big finance... Change the money concept ... Downsize democracy to human scale ...
Quit being an empire ... Quit being the best to be the less worst ... Reveal the destructive nature of transhumanism ...And reveal how science exist no more at the hand of technocratic masters ...
Read Soljenistsyn discourse after he was ousted from Soviet regime and speak to "freer" america about truth and spirit and see how his predictions about America are now fully realized for the worst ... ...He predicted the failure of Soviet regime and also the failure of America for the same reasons : lies and materialism and totalitarian ideology or totalitarian corporations ...
So, I am curious. If, "it doesn’t have to be that way", then what are you suggesting people do to "change the system that caters to millionaires", other than voting with their wallets?
Everyone has their own personality traits and these traits show in EVERYTHING they do and EVERYTHING they discuss. That being said, why are we discussing these traits as though you see them only as they relate to high-end, audio, equipment, equipment pricing, etc.? You could be talking to people about sports, medicine, legal issues, politics, etc, etc. and these same personality traits appear regardless of the topic. Part of the hobby for some people appears to be it gives them the opportunity to feel superior and try to convince the rest of us that they are.
I was in The Industry for about 15 years (decades ago) and not much has changed with respect to the High End. Yes, the Tech is more refined and the ideas have evolved but the Envy (of the Have Nots) and the Arrogance (of the Haves) is Constant. The veneer of Innocence and "Oh I would Never..." on Both sides is Not Your Fault... it is Human nature.
Just buy what you can Afford and try to Be Happy... don't worry about The Other Guy. Drop the needle (or push the button) and enjoy the Art...
@cleeds
“why do you remain a passive victim to a system you dislike?”
Did you read what I wrote? No, you would rather overwrite it with your ideological assumptions, which willfully obscure one of my points. There’s nothing passive about me or what I accomplished at all. I have built - that’s an active verb - a world class audio system over 55 years and that cost me over that time about $35,000 in today’s dollars: that’s $636 a year, very efficient spending in the face of a culture that measures a man’s testosterone levels by the size of his budget (I had a better way of saying that but I think there are a few ladies present in the room).
“There are other countries that operate under different systems….”
This is such boring right wing drivel. It’s 75 year old McCarthyite crap. Can’t you be at least original?
Here is one of my favorite quotes from the period, by Paul Robeson, one of the two greatest bass baritones of the 20th Century, whom the U.S. government harassed into his grave for nearly two decades:
Mr. SCHERER: Why do you not stay in Russia?
Mr. ROBESON: Because my father was a slave, and my people died to build this country, and I am going to stay here, and have a part of it just like you. And no Fascist-minded people will drive me from it. Is that clear?
But I will put my 38-67 year old gear up against anything on the market today and while it may not be the best according to some, it will righteously acquit itself.
“…You're being silly because it's essentially impossible for any of us to change our economic system.”
Totally wrong. Systems are changed all the time, either at the ballot box, through grassroots organizing with thousands of others, through catastrophe, like the Great Depression, or through revolution,…you know, like that Thing that we celebrate every July 4.
organize. The easy stuff is shareholder resolutions, strikes, boycotts. The hard part is revolution, which won’t happen for the foreseeable future because the working classes in the U.S. seem more inclined towards fascism at the moment and the Democratic Party are not getting them back anytime soon because it thinks there is no problem that can’t be solved by throwing money at it. I see that what is more likely is another Jan 6 insurrection that succeeds.
This is supposed to be an audio forum 😬 so hey I’m chillin 😎 after this 😆!
Of the 3,000 books in my library, I have several shelves devoted to history books that unequivocally dispute your assertions about the frequency of change.
As for your other comment about 1/6, you clearly did not cognitively grasp what I said.
As for dreaming, I fought a case to the U.S. Supreme Court and got Scalia to write an 8-1 opinion in my favor. I’m likely the only dialectical materialist to get Scalia to agree with him…twice! Can’t do that without first, dreaming, second, designing, third planning, fourth executing like hell.
I changed constitutional law by getting The Supremes to overthrow 12 cases that came before me that went the other way
OK, outa here before the moderator pulls down what is otherwise a normal thread.
I fought a case to the U.S. Supreme Court and got Scalia to write an 8-1 opinion in my favor. I’m likely the only dialectical materialist to get Scalia to agree with him…twice! Can’t do that without first, dreaming, second, designing, third planning, fourth executing like hell. I changed constitutional law by getting The Supremes to overthrow 12 cases that came before me that went the other way
Are you the one who brings the green been casserole to the annual Scalia Thanksgiving feast every year?
We need on earth a change of the scale there was in the American revolution against the British...
Ask the Europeans with a brain if they appreciate the American empire way to sell them gas and piloting them through the corrupted European union ...
Effective real change in systems are necessary at some point , like earthquake at some threshold point ... We are there , all corporate big powers are not only corrupted to the bones they destruct Earth, nature, and even science ...
Ask doctor Bill Gates, Ask Ursula Von der Leyen among other monsters with or without brain ....And ask Robert Kennedy why the most important event in political history the murder of the two Kennedys is not under a serious inquiry after 72 years. like murders of a president in a banana republic ...All the others unanswered questions are related in a way or in another to this elephant in the room ...Oliver Stone spoke well of this in a popular easy to understand way...
US is a nation in denial ... As was the soviet for other reasons ... Lies are the rule in the two cases ... Calling one freedom against evil is a slogan invented by CIA agent ...
No, they’re not. Effecting real change in systems is rare. Yes, it happens, but incremental change is much more common.
No, they’re not. Effecting real change in systems is rare. Yes, it happens, but incremental change is much more common.
Because we can't afford that gear, and are glad is is not providing the 'bang for buck' that our gear does (unlike for example in the car world, where 'normal' to 'crazy' is a factor of 10 ($300k vs $30k) car, while in the audio world, the factor is 100 ($300k turntable vs $3k turntable).
People hate what they can’t afford or people hate what they can afford, but don’t want to put the money into and buy it! Why do you think so many people complain about sports cars?
Plain and simple, People Suck! Not all people though. Miserable people just try to tear you down so your miserable with them especially "keyboard warriors". If you are happy with the sound of your system, and post what you have and people just tear you down "that gear is junk! you didn't spend 20K on that". I have noticed that on these forums. Especially in other topics like record cleaning (not Vinyl's) that drives me nuts' LP Records are not even made of Vinyl. Results are results! (not talking about Tap water, Windex or WD40) Anyways that's my thought. Sometimes I wonder why i load up this forum site. Humans ruin your hobby (yeah it's a hobby) for some it's a way of life (Music) and i do get it. Here is my system and it blows me away on how good it sounds.
Most gear/system price bragging result from acoustics ( with an S) ignorance ...
Ask Mike Lavigne who knows something what is the ratio cost of his dedicated room versus his gear price and the ratio of S. Q. possible in this acoustic dedicated room versus with these speakers or other speakers or versus different amplifiers ... The room controls is the main determinant even if all matter for sure ...
Hope you received the answers/responses related to the topic you were looking for?
Thanks to A’Gon moderators for allowing us to get a little "off topic" and keep this discussion going. Probably not going to see too many people change their opinions on the topics discussed. But, the value of the exchange of ideas and viewpoints from very smart, often humorous, and definitely unique individuals on a variety of subjects is immeasurable -- IMHO.
@waytoomuchstuffwe all are sound obsessed to a point but. Some either have more resources or will take it financially further than others are willing to. Our systems and gear brings us peace and joy. Some take it too far. But too far is always open for interpretation
I'm brand new here, so sticking my head out from around the corner on this may be a bit dangerous, but I live for danger.
I think if one perceives negativity from some folks re: this "hobby," especially younger people, the reasons may be the same as those at play now societally.
We are boomers. Everyone hates boomers, bcs everything that sucks "is our fault." We're all male, (one forum I was on had one woman), we're probably all white, we almost have to (Itals are less offensive than caps---don't be keyboard-finger-lazy.) live in $ingle-family, detached hou$ing, and we have way more discretionary income than most, and probably have had it for a long time.
Discussing any "toy" that costs thousands of dollars, seems bougie in a time when a 1950's, modest ranch is $925k and an apple costs $3. To the majority of the population, if you can't eat it, live under it, wear it, or drive it, it's completely a luxury.
We're self-indulgent (which is de rigueur w/Millennials, so I really don't understand that one). We want the best "anything" available and usually get it, and we whine a lot, or so others may think. (No, they're right, we do. "Whaaa, my brand new $12K ________ won't _________.")
Finally, there's the unrelatability of the very things that interest us. What's really a head-scratcher, is that ya gotta know what a forum like this is for, and to whom it appeals, to even visit.
Words like, "high-end" and "audiophile," are automatically elitist to most people. That's a very bad word these days. It's a little difficult for those of us who came from nothing and aspired to become "elitist." However, that, for most of us, was a matter of striving for academic and professional achievement, not a desire to be wealthy or exclusionary. That would be silly, because I've always known I'm better than the plebes who surround me.
Of course, I'm kidding. It only chaps me when the neighbors' poor relatives park their American jalopies.in front of our property and block the passersby views of our luxo landscaping.
I agree with mitch2 . "At the end of the day, it’s only a stereo". There are many, many things in life more important than a stereo. You get what you like and be happy. I think my angst is usually directed to "know it alls" and some are dealers just trying to elbow into the conversation ultimately to sell more gear. But there are other arrogant people like the measurements crowd. I say just listen and be happy.
BTW arrogant people really don’t understand how irritating they are. Some know a-lot but don’t really know how to share knowledge. Some think they know something but it’s really just opinions. Everyone has a different one, and it’s not really a matter of wrong or right. Also to assume someone wants to gut a room and make it a better acoustically sound environment for a sound system but spending $30k,,,, well regular people don’t do that?
@waytoomuchstuffwhen I started in this hobby I said I would never spend x amount of dollars. Well I’m way past that now. But I’ve grown in knowledge as well as income. Music has become more important. Not because of the gear because it’s my getaway. It allows me to think clearer. It brings a smile to my face. The better it sounds the better I feel. This has been an amazing journey for me. I guess when those that don’t know you or your experiences make assumptions about you, your system, your expenditures or your motives it can be a bit much. But then we should expect it. The world is full of brash thumb thuggery on the internet. Can’t let it bother you. Why lip wrestle with folks that already know everything. Enjoy what you have and keep it pushing. 99.9% of the time you are arguing with people who will never hear your system or that you will ever meet in life or more importantly even care to know.
Yes, music can impact us in ways we may not fully understand.
Back in the days when life was chaotic (dumpster fire would have been an upgrade), I found that at the end of the day, music was 100% predictable. Sit down in the listening chair, strap myself in and queue up something. In the Beatle's Martha My Dear, those horns would always arrive at the right place, at the right time, EVERY time. Gave me hope, and a little tranquility. And, peace. My investment was probably a "little above my pay grade." But, worth every penny.
In my experience money and high end upgrades so superior they could be matter way less than acoustics with an (s)...
Even the definition of what is the source of the playback is confused with the choices of a dac or a turntable creating meaningless debates about the gear choices and by putting emphasis on gear fetichism , missing then the acoustics /psycho-acoustics problems which are conflated then , not even to mere room acoustic controls but this last conflated with few panels on a wall ...
The source is acoustics of the recording original room process , nevermind the digital or analog choices , the end result is not FROM the speakers but from the ears/brain/system-speakers/room parameters ..
Sound experience is a qualia , a wholeness we can control to some point with acoustics/psycho-acoustics ...But it is not a mere quantity, save for those who confuse the experience with some parameters, and those who conflate sound experience acoustics conditions with the gear experience...
Most audiophiles i observed if i read threads brag about their gear not about their acoustics knowledge and experience .... And anyway even the embeddings electrical and mechanical controls matter as much that the gear choices and prices in most cases ...
Man, I miss the days when I drove an American jalopy - stereo was a Pioneer in-dash with Jensen 6x9s under the package deck - some of the best days of my life!
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