my well cared for and well recorded LP's sound excellent many of my albums now sound thin to me and noisy. Clicks and pops have been exacerbated to the point that I do not want to play some records even after a run through my Degritter ultrasonic.
Two possible problems can cause this. Your phono preamp isn't dealing well with the noise and needs upgrading. Or your well cared for albumin have groove damage due to previous play with worn stylus.
You may consider a Benz Micro cartridge if it's the cartridge fault. But I don't think it's your cartridge at fault.
|
Clicks and pops after ultrasonic cleaning either suggest really poor quality or damaged vinyl records, or something is off with your cleaning procedure.
Re thin sound, consider experimenting with loading setting on your phono stage. I don't know recommended loadings for your two carts and what your PS has as options. I also found that putting a SUT between MC cart and MM-in of PS generates a fuller sound.
Also adjusting tracking force may change the sound quite a bit. VTA for some has a strong effect; I could not hear anything.
|
I have 2 phono stages. A Manley Chinook and a Hegel V10. I have played with the loading on both and get similar results. Although the Hegel seems to have less top and bottom to me than the Manley. A good example is I just bought a Jackson Browne Somebody's Baby 12' Single Promo Released in 1982. The condition is very good. The album is quiet but sounds thin to me using the Hana. A lot of the albums that I own of that vintage seem to have a similar sound to them. Is there a cartridge that can add some color and fullness? Something that is easy to listen to that doesn't necessarily add a lot of detail.
|
@artemus_5 It could possibly be due to the cartridge change.
When I upgraded from a Dynavector XV-1s to a Lyra Atlas I was amazed at how much less I noticed ticks and pops on my old records. As if they had disappeared. Someone I know at Audio Quest who used to handle the Lyra line explained it this way,
I think what you are hearing re ticks is the fact that the Lyra has a much faster transient response, which also means it has less overhang. Tics and pops start and stop very quickly and have less audible impact on what you hear.
It may just come down to differences in the cartridges. A less resolving cartridge may or may not be the answer
|
I have a Hana ML cartridge and I don't have an issue with popping or thin sound. I use a Sutherland TZ Vibe photo stage. I just listened to it last night and it sounds great.
|
Maybe try an elliptical?
I had a Dynavector Karat with an elliptical that was 'fat' or full sounding.
If a phono stage doesn't have 'headroom' sometimes the pops and clicks don't attenuate well. I agree with the other poster: if after cleaning you still get them, it's the vinyl.
Maybe try rolling some 6922s in the Manley to get the sound you like? Tons of 6922/6DJ8 to try out there.
|
|
I had Clearaudio cartridges (Talisman V2, then Concerto V2). I mostly like acoustic jazz and classical and I always thought those two Clearaudios had great treble extension, but were rather anemic and analytical in the midrange. I really wanted something warmer, more luscious in midrange. Switching to Dynavector (but as an upgrade to XV-1s) was a revelation. Warmer midrange, but without loss of dynamics or ability to resolve inner details. Then I upgraded again, but to Lyra Atlas. Same but even better in every way.
I realize each upgrade was a doubling in cost or more, but the brands have a fairly consistent sound signature/character. There's a house sound one can depend on IMO. If you don't like it, switch brands. FWIW.
|
I recommend a moving iron cartridge from SoundSmith
bent
|
'The Nagoaka MP500 is a moving permalloy cart with a nude fine line profile on a boron cantilever. It's easy on the ears, but retains an inviting lively natural sounding detail with excellent dynamics.
|
It sounds like a setup issue to me. Not to play down the OP's skills, knowledge, or experience, but I've tried setting up my Hana ML with a MoFi - Geodisc, and while I got it to sound decent, getting a professional setup guy to do the alignment brought the sound to a whole different level.
Cartridges at the level of the Umami Blue require careful setup and tuning with alignment tools like SMARTracktor or Feickert Alignment Protractor.
|
+1 @chipcalzone you beat me to it.
@rfauto I wouldn’t give up on the Hana just yet. At least not without narrowing down the reason why your albums sound “thin and noisy “.
What was your setup procedure for switching out to Hana Unami Blue? Cartridge alignment, tracking force, VTA? I’m guessing one cartridge is taller than the other. This could this be VTA related.
I believe the Hana output is 0.4mV, what is the Clearaudio cartridge output?
Good luck!
|
The "warmest" sounding cartridges that I have used have been Grados. The midrange presentation on a Grado is like syrup. I don't currently use a Grado because my speakers are a bit laid back and need cartridges with a bit more high end emphasis.
|
+1 Hana ML. Mine is teamed with a Rega Aria. Smooth & Full with no noise even with my 50 year old records. Your issue gives me pause, as had planned to upgrade to Umami.
|
Thanks everyone for the input. I just want to clarify that I do really like sound of the Hana Umami Blue. I have the loading set at 80 ohms (coil impedance is 8 ohms). I tried it at 100 ohms, but it sounded bright. If I play my MOFI Eagles Hotel California 180g Supervinyl 2 LP set on the Hana the sound is literally incredible. The noise floor is silent, sound stage full and incredible. You can liter hear every detail from guitar pics and snare drums. Don Henley sounds like he's in my living room. Unfortunately, this cartridge also gives me everything on my Al Stewart Time Passages that was passed down from a relative. The album has been used since 1980. It has been played a lot, spent some time in a basement and handed down to me. On my prior cartridge the Clearaudio Virtuoso V1 I did not get the detail the Hana provides, but a mediocre copy of an album did not sound as bad. I figured my solution would be to get another table with a "nice" but less revealing cartridge to play my "well loved" albums.
|
Anything "bronze" from Ortofon, I think, is a happy medium between detailed and "mushy." I have not heard the Cadenza Bronze. However, the 2m and Quintet Bronze are quite pleasant sounding
|
I agree with chipcalzone, this is very clearly a setup issue. If azimuth is off, you will definitely hear more noise from the record than if azimuth is set right, or more right than you have it.
And in my experience, thinness in the sound, to the extent that it's related to your front end, is caused by having the arm a little too high.
Check your arm height again, with the stylus sitting in a record groove, and make sure the arm is exactly parallel to the record surface.
If your tonearm has an adjustment for azimuth, try adjusting that better. Keep in mind that the best sound may not come from a stylus that's perfectly vertical to the record surface.
Tolerances in cartridge manufacturing are larger than we might expect and in many cases cartridges are sold that exceed the manufacturers own tolerance standards.
IOW, you likey have not yet heard what your cartridge actually sounds like, so don't go shopping for a new one until you get to hear the one you already have.
|
Azimuth is about crosstalk, the fraction of the R channel signal that appears in the L channel, and vice-versa. How does that affect “noise”?
|
@knotscott Mentioned Nagaoka… IME the MP500 has an exaggerated top end, to the point many people attempt to tame it, but if you want the same signature with a tad less extension (better for his pop/click problem) and want to save a a bit of money, even the mp250 may do the trick. Slight difference in output I believe. I got a Zu DL103 at one point and it may do what you want. Or the Sumiko Blue Point.
|
@thebrokenrecord I had the dealer that I bought the cartridge from outside Boston, MA set it up for me. One thing I do notice is that albums sound more open when I’m not using a record mat on the platter. I have a Clearaudio Satisfy tonearm. I think there’s a set screw on the side of the plinth where I can adjust the arm. Thanks for the advise.
|
@rfauto
The umami blue is the forward lively sounding model vs the warmer laid back umami red. That said it should not sound thin-
have you verified that the headshell is perfectly level when resting on a stationary LP?
how many hours on the cartridge? give it 25-50 hrs before it starts sounding smoother.
what are your phono preamp load and gain settings?
not saying it will be a warm sounding cart but it should sound better than you describe.
|
Also, “thin” in and of itself is a very subjective quality. As when your wife or girlfriend asks do I look thin in this dress? Maybe you can amplify on your definition of thin (sounding, not looking).
|
Slightly off topic. I can’t comment on the “sound” of your cartridge, but for the noisy LPs in my collection I’m very happy with the SugarCube. Does a remarkable job of eliminating those annoying clips and pops. And I am careful to clean record and stylus (Ortofon 2M Black) before playing.
|
Grado
Gold
Will add some warmth.
|
@au_lait
@knotscott Mentioned Nagaoka… IME the MP500 has an exaggerated top end, to the point many people attempt to tame it,
That has not been my experience at all, nor have even read heard about that being an issue from others. Quite the opposite. I read about taming the top end of some AT and Ortofon carts with proper loading, but the MP500.
|
Try a Goldring 1042. Good tracking and not forward at all, IMO
|
Agree with knotscott, in my system the MP500 is a very well balanced cartridge. If anything, it has an especially rich bass register without losing detail or separation of instruments. In fact I’d recommend it to counteract a “thin” sound. I’ve never seen any comment to the effect that the MP500 treble needs taming.
|
The MP 500 is a high output moving iron cartridge. So the only reasonable loading is 47,000 ohms into a moving magnet phono stage. I even use 100K ohms. There’s no accounting for the sound if something else is done.
|
Surprising. The Umami blue is a relatively warm catridge. I agree with suggestions to have set up checked by a professional. Or may be deffective. 80 Ohms is borderline. Of course it dépends of the set up but 100 ohms is recommended. Is the gain to high?
Personaly, I had a Hana SL and upgraded to a Pure Fidelity stratos at 2000$ A bit less detailed, but more Bass punch and sound stage. The reviews on the Stratos are simply outstanding and so is my listening experience.
|
From what you have said, I'd have the cartridge itself checked. I once bought a brand new cartridge that just didn't sound right. It was sent back to the mfg and checked. It was bad. They sent me a new cartridge. New items can and do come out of the plant that are defective.
|
Either that or they’d rather not argue with a customer. It’s easier to just replace the cartridge than to dispute the claim, and it turns a disgruntled customer into a grateful one.
|
@ericba I initially had the cartridge loaded at 100 Ohms at 60 db of gain, then dropped it to 80 as I thought it sounded a little bright on my gear. I don’t think that there’s a problem with the cartridge. It just seems like a good cart for critical listening. I’m rather new to the hobby and I found cartridge shopping a little frustrating. There’s seemingly endless options based on my budget. I live in New Hampshire. Boston, MA is not far. There’s about 6 or so decent home audio shops within 1.5 hours. However, cartridge shopping is a real pain. I basically did some online research and settled on the Hana Umami Blue or a Soundsmith The Voice and went with the Hana mainly because it was highly regarded by my local dealer and I saved some money trading in my Clearaudio cartridge. I guess Hana and Clearaudio have the same US distributor.
|
There’s practically no difference between 80 and 100 ohms load for an LOMC with an 8 ohm internal resistance. The difference certainly ought not to affect tonal balance in any significant (audible) way. But we convince ourselves anyway.
|
@rfauto A properly set up Umami Blue should not leave you not wanting for a "lesser cartridge"—your description of a thin sound points towards a sub-optimal setup. Either that or something else in the analog chain is causing it.
I would first ask the dealer how it was set up, which alignment system was used, and if VTA and VTF were properly tuned. You mentioned that you traded in your Clearaudio Cart, the Umami Blue should sound warmer compared to that.
I can't stress enough how important professional setup is. I have the ML, before that, I had the SL, and the thin sound is not what comes to mind when describing Hana house sound.
|
First principles. Define the root cause of the problem. Are you hearing clicks and pops on all you records or only some? If only some, examine them carefully under bright light (I like sunlight). Are the noisy records damaged? If so, then +1 for a Sugar Cube. If they show no signs of damage, you might try cleaning them again. You mentioned that you have a Degritter. You might try using a different method of cleaning because ultrasonic cleaning is not effective against some contaminants. That is why many professional use a two or more step process such as a vacuum machine followed by an ultrasonic. Or at least you might try using a detergent solution first followed by a distilled water rinse. Next, are the noisy records all made by the same record label? That label may just be inherently noisy. If so, again model depenant +1 for Sugar Cube. Finally, I didn't look it up, but is your new stylus a Shibata? If so, you should be aware that these are very difficult to set up and are prone to pick up noise. Professional setup assistance may be your best solution.
|
My experience with a Hana was that it required a significant amount of break in. As the hours piled up, the midrange bloomed and the bottom both control and extension improved. Due to this, I also discovered the best settings on the phono pre were different after break in.
Could it be set up or loading issues, sure, but I suggest you get some hours on it before moving on.
|
I have to disagree slightly with chipcalzone. Proper setup is very important but because of that anyone serious enough about this hobby to come here for advice ought to take the time to learn how to do it himself (or herself). Decent tools are a nominal one time expense, and there are excellent YouTube videos on the subject , see especially M Fremer’s. Also, the choice of alignment algorithm (Lofgren vs Stevenson vs etc) is not likely to per se be the cause of a thin” sound, whatever thin may mean to the OP.
|
+1 on Grado for warm sound.
|
The idea that the OP's Hana is somehow deficient and that some other brand of cartridge will solve his problems is simply not credible.
|
I don't know what causes this kind of sound but it shouldn't be like that for sure.
I'll just mention Goldring 1042 as well because that's what I have for my Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm. I used to use Acoustech phono stage but now use VAC Avatar's SE phono. This is not a warm cartridge, it is on the warmer side of the range. To my ear it sounds balanced and just right. Of course, one can do significantly better even with the same set-up but at much higher cost. I once wanted to replace it with Nagaoka MP500 but changed my mind, I just see no good reason to replace it.
|
@lewm One can be serious and enthusiastic about something without personally executing the technical aspects. I can be a car enthusiast who loves driving without needing to tinker with the engine.
I’m fully capable of setting up a cartridge, but if someone with decades of experience, superior skills, and better tools can do it more precisely, I’m happy to pay for their expertise to achieve the best possible sound and mileage from my system.
|
Yeah.
lewn, can you set up cartridge by ear only, without any tools ?
|
If the OP notices a significant increase in surface noise, pops/clicks, after changing the cartridge, then it doesn’t make sense that all of his vinyl would have suddenly deteriorated. He seems to have a decent phono pre amp. Perhaps there is just a slight misalignment of the cartridge so that it’s bobbing around a bit inside the groove
|
@lewm
Azimuth.
Hi again….l agree azimuth defines left and right channels and crosstalk. I wonder if you think some of the things l have experienced apply to your azimuth experiences.
With regard to the OP and his noise/crackle issues, if the cartridge azimuth is out it will be detrimental to the tracking accuracy of the stylus.
If the tip of the stylus is skewed (azimuth not vertical) it will never find the lowest part of the groove. This will cause the stylus to ride up on one side of the groove and track much higher. Any minute damage on the records surface would then be accentuated as the stylus should be tracking the groove much deeper down and missing that detail. It is a misconception to believe that a stylus tracks totally the whole height of the groove.
l have noticed this myself and is a similar effect to incorrect bias compensation (anti-skating for our American friends). It is also true that too much force on one or the other walls of the groove increases the cartridges output from that channel too and throwing L+R balance out, but that’s a different problem.
Of course a badly worn stylus will do the same thing as an azimuth error as this would cause the stylus to ride up higher out the groove similar to fluff around the stylus that also increases surface noise. Of course noticing suddenly more noise can also indicate the approaching end of the stylus life and increased record wear/damage.
So perhaps the OP could try adjusting the azimuth first and have a few listening tests.
|
