Hey guys, I wanted to try and crowd-source some (likely very opinionated, unscientific) knowledge. I've read about the benefits of separates (have only ever used integrated myself), and I'm wondering how those benefits compare to the benefits of higher end parts/assembly, when controlled for cost.
To put it more plainly, would you likely get better overall results from a $5000 preamp and $5000 amp, or from a $10,000 integrated, given the likely quality/components used in equipment in those price ranges.
If you're experienced both separates, and integrated amps that cost the equivalent of those separate parts added together, can you speak to which you preferred?
Right tool for the job. If you have the space and perhaps are trying to connect a lot of components, separates may be the way to go. If you're trying to wring that last 1 or 2 percent of sound quality out of your system, separates may be the way to go.
If space is limited, a well made integrated can work great and sound just as good, or so close that it wouldn't be noticeable, as separate components from the same brand. You should also get more bang for your buck, since with an integrated you're only paying for the engineering and manufacturing of one enclosure.
One of my friends has long used an integrated in his system, and it is by far one of the best sounding systems I've heard. It's relatively modest, but what makes his system so good is his room and the care he has taken matching and setting up his components, not the amp/preamp.
I have 2 systems built around integrated amps and two built around separates. I like them all. The main system sounds best and it is build around separates, but again, that is more a result of maximizing my listening space and having good source components and speakers than whether my system is built around an integrated amp/preamp or an integrated.
It all matters, but that choice should be made based more on space, budget, and aesthetics than sound quality in my opinion.
I have owned many integrated amplifiers that were purported to be among the finest around. Honestly, I was unimpressed.
The sound stage and imaging was very average at best, instrument timbre was just OK. When I upgraded to separates, the ROI was well worth the spend. Just one guys experience.
I agree with someone above who said you need to compare the amps within the same brand for this to make any sense. In my opinion, a $10k integrated amp would probably sound better than a $5k amp and $5k preamp, assuming they were all the same brand. The big caveat is if you play vinyl… the included phono stage on an integrated is likely not as good as one included in a preamp, although it’s possible, I suppose.
There are way too many variables if you compare across brands.
Both Luxman and Accuphase make outstanding integrated amps, and I have used the following in my 2 systems:
Luxman L-509u, L-595A
Accuphase E-260, E-380.
I especially like the Luxman L-595A pure class A integrated - 30W into 8 ohms, 60W into 4 ohms.
I recently upgraded my main speakers to the Verity Audio Arindal (the successor to the Amadis S) driven by the L-595A integrated. The speakers are sensitive at 93 db and do not dip below 3 ohms.
But I wonder if separates would be a significant improvement in my situation? Both Accuphase and Luxman make separates that are a significantly greater investment than their integrateds and with specs that are incredible. For example the smallest Accuphase class A amp the A-48 is a heavy beast that delivers 45W into 8 ohms, 90 into 4 ohms, 180W into 2 ohms and 360W into 1 ohm. Impressive, but given that my speakers don't require the power, would there be any benefit to going down this route?
Seperates are great but require even more $$$ for power and interconnect cabling. Coming from a $100k all Shindo system I'm honestly toying with going with the simpliest (but bad-ass) rig of a Lumin P1 + ATC powered SCM150's. Add a pair or good xlr cables and done....
I barely heard a difference if any from.the Luxman L590 AXII vs M900u & C900u. Im sure there people convince themselves due to the price difference, its a pchyological thing. Like a pre amp, heard a 10k vs a 1k one and I heard zero differences.
Your query is not simple, and you have already received some fair advice for both approaches. The foundation to base your decision on your path will likely depend on whether you have found your "forever" loudspeakers. If so, then you can go either way with each approach having pros and cons.
A well-conceived Integrated simplifies your system with fewer interconnects as "eric_squires" points out. Choosing the right integrated is then the key. For myself, I wouldn't settle on price alone as the sole criterion.
Personally, my system is built around a pair of very fine mono blocks, located near my loudspeakers and a really fine preamplifier. My preamplifier has a very low output impedance, so that it is very capable of driving quality single ended interconnects the distance required to the amps. This keeps speaker cables short.
As a sidebar, avoid placing your equipment between your loudspeakers. If I had the disposable income, I would likely choose an Ypsilon Phaethon integrated and live happily ever after. Others have provided recommendations for some other less expensive and very good options as well.
my main source is a rega turbtable. I would say i use that for all of my more serious listening. i have a bluesound node streamer for when i just want something in the background while i'm cooking or doing other things.
currently the only "separate" component i hate is the phone stage which i recently added, and it definitely made a difference, which was what got me thinking of the possibility of separates to begin with, having only ever used integrated in the past.
You didn't mention if your principal source is a turntable or digital. If turntable, definitely make sure your phono stage is separate. I have an AB integrated with SS phono stage. I used to use the amp's phono stage and getting the separate one was a huge improvement, and supposedly the one in my integrated is excellent.
I agree with someone who said if your power requirements dictate mono blocks, get all separates, otherwise a similarly priced integrated versus separates should deliver better value all else being equal because of the cost savings of the parts and cables cut in 1/2..
Happy with my sugden class A integrated. Takes up less space and I doubt I'd be gaining much audibly by going seperates. Plus, easy to switch out with my other integrated amps...
It would be interesting to do an actual survey of participants related to this subject. Key questions could extract a lot of raw data from the group, and could be viewed in detail, or summarily. I can think of a dozen, or so, questions off hand that could reveal a lot about the decisions and choices members made.
@recklesskelly every single one of those hybrid units you’ve mentioned has a compromise in functionality (except maybe the McIntosh) compared to my Audio Research/Pass Labs combo. Whether it be limited balanced inputs, no balanced ht bypass , no way to integrate my xvr-1 crossover and subwoofers. In my situation my AR pre does exactly what I want
@recklesskelly There are definitely options out there. Unison has a nice range of hybrid units at a decent price that sound really good. Now in my situation I also “need” 2 balanced inputs (I could get by with one using an external switch) so now my options are even smaller. In my case it was much easier integrating a separate pre.
”In my opinion, regardless of whether it's an integrated, or separates, it all starts with the power supply. Assuming it's overbuilt and done well, separates have their own discrete power supplies, with mono amps or true dual mono designs being the best. At the end of the day, how good a piece of gear sounds is directly related to its power supply”
” …. I’d also say it depends on the level of integrated you are looking at.…
+1 on both posts.
There are several high-end integrated amps with beefy dual-mono power supplies that are every bit the peer performance TRUE contender and no pretender to separates . (Dual mono” indicates two completely separate, independent, unrelated channels)
think GRYPHON , REGA and other quality hi-end builds .
I’m most familiar with my REGA OSIRIS
REGA OSIRIS POWER SUPPLY DEETS
The Osiris uses two low noise, purpose designed 400 VA toroidal transformers using high-grade, fully bonded core material. The transformers are mounted to the chassis using Rega’s innovative mounting technique which eliminates noise being transferred from the transformer to the case when the transformers are operating under arduous mains (line) conditions with high levels of asymmetric mains (line) distortion.
These transformers combined with 40,000 Micro Farads of Rega K-Power smoothing capacitors per channel, provide more than enough current to drive the hardest of loads.
All the power supplies utilise fast recovery rectifier diodes throughout. (Fast diodes generate less high frequency switching noise therefore giving rise to a cleaner DC). The input and low-level driver stages are fed from a regulated symmetrical tracking power supply with a low noise voltage reference, which provides a fully stabilised low noise voltage, ensuring the highest level of sonic purity.
All the dedicated audio power supplies feed only the audio circuits.
The input switching, display & micro controller and protection circuits have their own dedicated supplies, keeping the audio signal path as pure as possible.
For us that are fans of tube pre with ss amps (not class D) there aren’t a whole lot of options out there in the integrated world. Once you decide that a particular pre tube is the sound you’re looking for your options become even less. Definitely seperates for me
Several years ago, I had to move from a very large listening space, to a smaller listening space. In the smaller room, I determined that, even though I still held on to my large, full range speakers, that space consuming separates were no longer an option. My speakers are pretty inefficient and I need a high powered and high current amp to drive them properly. I ended up going with the incredible Hegel H590 integrated amp. With the H590, I can honestly say that I don't miss separates at all. The Hegel H590 is an absolute beast!!!
In my opinion, regardless of whether it's an integrated, or separates, it all starts with the power supply. Assuming it's overbuilt and done well, separates have their own discrete power supplies, with mono amps or true dual mono designs being the best. At the end of the day, how good a piece of gear sounds is directly related to its power supply. Same goes for digital. However, IF this same philosophy is applied to the design of an integrated amp, including those with onboard DACs, very good sound quality should be expected. If you go back to the early days of the high end when Levinson was really Mark Levinson, one reason those amps and preamps sounded so good (and many still do) is because their respective power supplies were way overbuilt. That has not changed. Just saying.....
For $10k you can purchase a tube preamp, monoblocks, speakers, and a turntable. You simply have to buy them used. I’ve done it. The most expensive item were $9.5k speakers for $3300.
I own Primaluna KT88 mono’s that also accept EL34’s. My preamp is an Inspire LP3.1, that allows me to swap a multitude of different tubes. My speakers are Martin Logan Spires.
So yeah, $10k can still go a long way.
To your question on integrated’s: if it’s a tube integrated, absolutely great. I don’t feel the necessity for separates. People who feel that way likely haven’t owned a solid integrated.
Music lover who went integrated amplifier, finally go to enter the separated amplifier, as the play period is way longer than we think when we start. So to save money,go separated at first step.
I’m about to begin my speaker adventure and from reading comments and reviews, which is all I can do at this point, I’m leaning towards mono blocks. I came across the new Burson Audio Timekeeper 3XGT that seems to have great reviews. This might be an option to consider as well. The description on their website states no preamp needed for these mono blocks, though I already have a Felixs Audio Euphoria Evo that I plan to use with them.
The answer is more simple than many are making it seem. Price is absolutely a great indicator of performance! Very few expensive products perform poorly, but that does not guarantee that a lower priced product won't perform equally as well.
To directly answer the OP's question with an example:
A $12K Gryphon Integrated will sound better and is better built than a $6K Parasound Amp and $6K Preamp!
Normally the DACS and phono preamps in an Integrated is inferior to a good quality separate piece...But there are integ. amps that defy that. see Steve Huffs review of the Aavik U-150.
In my view, an integrated amp need not be a compromise. You can get very high performance if desired. T+A, CH Precision, Audionet, VAC, etc. all make exceptional integrated amps without significant compromise. While it’s likely that their separates are even better, those will also likely be minor and the cost differential substantial. Separates do offer some advantages - placement, inputs, variety, perhaps performance, they are not inherently superior. I’ve had both. To be fair, I wasn’t up in the stratosphere of separates, but my T+A integrated is worlds better than the Parasound separates I had. No comparison. So, perspective is important here.
Some of us like gear. Some like changing out gear. Some seek the last iota of performance. Some need more flexibility of placement or want to blend typologies. All these users would likely favor separates. But, performance is there within the marketplace of integrated amps if you have the budget for it. And, for a budget of $10k, I would politely suggest that an integrated is likely to have better performance tthan comparably priced separates.
Lastly, I would note that i think it’s a good idea to keep digital circuits out of our preamp and/or amps. They’re noisy and my personal experience suggests that streaming clients and/or DACs built w/in most integrated amps are compromised relative to higher performing separates. So, I personally don’t think integrates that include the kitchen sink are necessarily ideal. My experience only. YMMV.
I had 2 integrated tube amps for several years that met my needs. Both from the same brand, highly reviewed, greatly enjoyed and my first foray into tubes and I loved the sound. I knew in the future I would go to separates, for the experience, but mainly for the flexibility of customizing the sound to my ears and listening room. My first separates were from the same integrated brand as my integrates. Then one day I brought here on Agon a used Dehavilland ultra-verve (6sn7 based) that I paid about $1200 for to see what it sounded like against my 12AU/12AX preamp. Immediately I knew the 6SN7 pre gave me the sound I was looking for, so the other pre, which costs a fair amount more that the used-pre was immediately boxed and sold. I quickly learned you cannot judge components based on price alone. Then I got a pair of tube monos and immediately sold the previous tube amp. I could not have explored if I had a one box solution. I don't care about extra cables, space, or anything that requires running separates or monos. I am only concerned with the end-sound out of the speakers.
My current amp and preamp retailed for 5k each, but buying directly from the designer/builder I saved a good amount. I liked the Ultraverve so much I went to Kara Chaffe, talked to her and got the Dehavilland Mercury pre. It fits the synergy of my system perfectly and I love the sound. She has since retired. I use the Ultraverve periodically and have it as a backup. My current mono amps are by Audio Mirror, for which I have some fairly new Lanlai tubes in it. Which are great.
Your question is a good one that I have thought about myself. I have never heard a 10k integrated but I like separates for the flexibily, focus on one-box solutions for each component to maximize power needs, isolation, etc. I am also about "value" big time, and I believe in having a back-up for each part in my system. I am a music lover first and equipment guy second. I can't recall who said it but somewhere I read a quote "to truly get to the music, you have to go through the equipment first".
This hobby is a long-journey and is different for each. I had a couple of lower-end solid state stereo amps as a back up to my Reflection monos, sold them and bought a used Synergy 450 from Van Alstine's website 225w per channel and really liked the amp and the tuneful low end. I had never had a high-powered amp with my EgglestonWorks speakers. I liked that component so much I recently bought a DVA SET 500 stereo amp (250w per channel) from Van Alstine and absolutely love it. Currently running the SET500 but putting the monos back in will be like having another, somewhat new system.
Based on the DVA SET500 I can totally agree that great sound is coming out for solid state. Who knows, one day I may get a one box solution, but for now I am set on separates. I don't want anything in a component not required for the main function of that component or something I won't use.
Everything is different for each person in the hobby. Generalizations are always made, reviews and marketing are rampant. My experience has been the only way to know what you want is to listen. Everyone ears are different. Hope this helps you. Your decisions should consider what do you want to put into the hobby (time, researching, tailoring sound, future goals, etc.) And what a great hobby it is for music lovers!
To put it more plainly, would you likely get better overall results from a $5000 preamp and $5000 amp, or from a $10,000 integrated, given the likely quality/components used in equipment in those price ranges.
1) You'd automatically expect you'd get higher performance from better parts in the integrated because it's casework is costs is less than 2+ caseworks of a pre+amp(s)
2) The comparison isn't reality - it likely doesn't exist. For your example to work, all the components must be from the same manufacturer. Otherwise, it's not apples to apples.
A better way is to look at this is:
1) Is the flexibility in planning for future preamp, amp changes/upgrades important to you?
2) If so, do you prefer a higher sonics of a integrate or the flexibility of separate components? While you may be able to find both, it's usually a tradeoff and thus a personal preference
3) If not, then likely best to stick with an integrated. Check Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and others reviews. Forum suggestions for a 10k integrated also helpful.
FYI - the Aesthetix Mimas integrated has great (excellent for the $) optional phono and DAC cards reviews. Also, this integrated can be used as a preamp only (Aesthetix has great reputation for their preamps) if you want to try a different amp later.
I’d also say it depends on the level of integrated you are looking at.
I agree, there are many truly high-end integrated amps to choose from. I went from separates to a Diablo 300. The new Diablo 333 will probably be even better.
Either has its advantages and disadvantages. Those have been well-listed by many posters here. If you are talking about sound quality alone, Integrated amps have narrowed the gap between them and separates. The high end ones are quite good and should not be dismissed. In the $10K range, The Absolute Sound recommends the following:
Although I have had separate over the years, with a tube P.A.,I find that my I.A. is a good match with my speakers. I don't believe anything is missing.
Separates have greater flexibility if swapping P.A's is desired, but there are many well designed I.A's that perform equally as well. There are lots of choices and price bracket to pick from.
At that price (10,000) I’d recommend integrated, but separates and monoblocks are far superior. But not possible unless you go 5 times over that budget, you’ll get incredible sound out of a top 10k integrated.
I have been there and done that…as in separates (Audio Research Ref 1 and Pass Labs X-250) to integrated (Gold Note IS 1000 Deluxe). Obviously, this is a cost step down for me, but, all things considered, I am extremely happy with my current system and very appreciative of the functionality and sleekness afforded by the “one box” solution.
For many enthusiasts like me, there is always going to be a stronger pull towards separates - they're just too cool. You got your phono & preamp in the rack under the turntable, and a monoblock next to each speaker. Just as God intended 😎
Most integrated amps truncate the preamp gain stages, which is OK for digital sources pushing out 2 - 4V+ signals. But as an analog source first guy (often no digital), I appreciate having the extra gain on tap to fill in for that lo-MC or tape deck when needed. And of course, more tubes from separates means more rolling opportunities.
oldrooney: thanks for the thoughtful reply, there is so much to consider. among other things, the room i'm in now is not likely the room i'll be in forever, as it's a rental.
i was initially in the market for something more in the range of the focal 2, since that's where my budget was at, but a dealer had the 3s on hand that he'd taken as a trade-in and sold them to me for less than the price of the 2s, i couldn't pass that deal up, even if i knew it was something i'd need to grow into, both in terms of system and space for it to occupy, over the course of some years, i considered it more of a long term investment.
whenever possible, i prefer to save a little more and stretch to something that is maybe a little farther up than i was initially, looking, and then just keep and enjoy it for a long time, vs get something more entry level and keep feeling like i want to upgrade it every year or two.
a long way of saying that at the moment, the speakers are probably overkill for the room, but i move around often enough, they might be perfect in the next one. i don't listen at extreme volumes, not trying to terrorize the neighbors, nor is the music i'm playing terribly bass-forward, mostly rock, pop, folk and some r&b/soul. the rogue tube amp i have now offers plenty of power for them, at 91db sensitivity, i rarely ever get past 50% on the volume dial and that's in triode mode which i believe halves the output.
i enjoy tubes and would be happy to stay that course, although i don't like the aesthetics of most tube gear (to me it looks like it was cobbled together from parts of an old soviet submarine) i wish more tube amp manufactueres would embrace contemporary design aesthetics. some exceptions i've seen recently are esoteric, and copland, but the ones that i like the look of tend to be out of my price range (i think i just really prefer a closed-chassis design, i don't need all the bits to be exposed, they just get dusty).
i do think, whether i continue down the separates path, or go integrated, i'll continue to use tubes.
All integrateds are a compromise, they have to be, and this could be a good or bad thing. No integrated that I know of has the exact same phono preamp guts of their best separates. Same for dac, preamp, and amp.
But the good thing about integrateds, they are cheaper and the sq/features might meet or exceed your needs for the money.
There have been many advances in stereo components.
You cannot measure with "price points" however for a couple reasons.
1. Many components that are selling for 7-10K are over priced. Ive opened some of these up and marvel at the audacity of some of the pricing placed on mediocrity. A standard steel casement costs about $40 and I’ve seen these on $11,000 integrateds
2. Tastes cannot be assimilated into subjective reasoning. I’ve heard higher priced separates I have not liked as much as a set of $4000 separates.
But that’s me and my tastes.
There are many integrateds that produce wonderful assimilation of recorded music. The question remains if these inte’s fulfill your tastes sufficiently enough to be gratifying to you.
For instance, I can’t listen to Hegel stuff as I find them fatiguing thru resolute speakers. They’re impressive at first and wow many in audio salons.
You and many others here might love Hegel. Not me.
Go with a name brand that consensus wise, seems to float many boats such as ARC, (Paragon is selling the renowned Vsi 75 for $6K where these things were once $10K), Belles Signature, Music Fidelity 6 series, etc.Ffor separates, I've always liked the Quick Silver stuff and they're not crazy money.
I like "natural sounding". Not embellished with too much distortion to round off highs for the sake of bass or weight. Nor do I like highs that border on the sterile. I go for correct timbres, appropriate sound stage for the recording I'm listening to and spectacular imaging. One Vsi 75 thru Pro Ac Studio 100's does this enough for me.
Try to find descriptions of the listeners taste in sound reproduction or else reviews are absolutely worthless otherwise.
In general, the decision to separate amp and preamp sections is to keep high power components away from sensitive lower power components. For the same reason some people prefer separate power supplies as well. It makes it much easier for designers to shield from EM fields and associated distortion.
I’ve had separates for over fifty years and bought my first integrated in the end of ‘21. I’ve been very happy with the Hegel H390, but I’m not using the streaming part and I’m not using the DAC. I haven’t started looking yet, but it’s only a matter of time before I start looking for a couple of amps.
For many years I enjoyed separate preamp and stereo amps (VAC and Ayre mostly) that provided the power (separate power supplies?) for the speakers I was using at the time. A little over a year ago I moved to a Gryphon Diablo 300 with its DAC module. The Gryphon easily provides the power for my Rockport speakers and I was able to retire multiple sets of interconnects and power cables. The main issue IMO with some integrated amplifiers is they do not have a robust power supply to drive hi end speakers. There are many excellent high end integrateds being produced today but the goal is to obtain one at a cost that matches one's budget and thoughtfully matches the load it will be expected to drive.
I would say those claiming cheap separates (Parasound) are better than Integrated by Circle Labs, Norma Audio, Simaudio, Soulnote…are simply wrong. I will put a Norma IA-140 against any lower end separates system.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
