Selling off Tubes for Solid State, A Cooler Love Story?

Sounds like you've graduated from the Primaluna budget. Go for the Dartzeel.

pass labs

agd

hegel

i do not miss tubes...  i myself am very surprised to hear myself say that...after all these years knee deep in audio research, cj, vac and so on...

Following this discussion: curious as to a transition (back) to SS as I'm enjoying wallowing around in tube warmth ATM.

Another option is Van Alstine. You can return it if you don’t like it! My friend changed from a tube Rogue Audio amp and is totally satisfied!!

Some random observations,

1) your choice of amplifier, especially if you are considering a class D amp, will be very speaker dependent.  In my case, I was driving a pair of Opera Platea's with a Prima Luna Prologue 5 (primary system) and tried a Class D Audio CDA 250 and thought they paired very well.  The Class D sounded like schiit though with every other speaker that I had in other systems.   

2) I am curious how much heat your KT 88's (do you run 4 or 8 of them, btw) could be throwing out.  I have never felt this way with my PL5.  Granted it is not a near field or desktop set-up.   

3) Hard to replicate the PL/ tube sound if you are happy with it without using tubes. I have in use and/ or have used the Outlaw RR2150, Rega Brio, & Musical Fidelity M3 amplifiers and they were not as satisfying.  I am using a Rogue Sphinx now in a secondary system (Golden Ear BRX speakers) and it is pretty good, but I enjoy my PL5 more (Zu Audio Dirty Weekenders speakers).

I would stay with my PL gear.  If I were to try a different tube amp, I would consider Raven audio.  

Rich 

@jjss49 this is exactly where I am at. Tubes are so fun, but on the power side of things the heat it generates is becoming too much. I would definitely keep my tubes if I wasn't in an upstairs room that gets sun all day. 

@yogiboy I'll check out the Van Alstine 👍🏻

@roxy54,

"Sounds like you've graduated from the Primaluna budget."

I thought the same, very different market segment (Even at used pricing). Ypsilon and Dartzeel are both very fine solid state options.

Charles

Dartzeel and send me your PL gear. I'll end you a label in 15 mins.

Same situation here (different budget though). I decided to try a tube integrated and it sounds fine, but the heat is a killer. More heat is not needed in New Orleans.

OR pick up a low cost second-hand Class-D or smaller SS A/B amp for 3 months out of the year.  Keep the PL for cooler darker months when you are inside listening anyhow.

Read up on summer amps.  More than a few do this in order to keep their big Class -A SS or multi tube amps around. 

Wells is very warm-sounding without generating the heat of a Pure Class A amp.

As usual, @jjss49 is plugged into my brain so I’ll just echo his thoughts.  Read the AGD reviews, and they’ve recently launched a stereo version that’d be worth a good look.  The only other thought I have is there are some very good Class-A amp manufacturers that offer their amps with a hi/low bias switch (Clayton, Plinius) that might give you a nice compromise.  Or, maybe look at Valvet amps that I’d view as Class-A lite and may give you what you’re looking for depending on the sensitivity/power needs of your speakers.  Just some other food for thought, and best of luck. 

Modern solid state is voiced  midway between the golden sound of tubes and the crisp cleanliness of s/s

as many experienced hands have noted, modern solid state amps at the upper tier use various technologies and techniques to produce a sound that gives the best of both

perhaps the most articulate among the makers is nelson pass, who describes how he and his crew dial in small, desired amounts of even order harmonic distortion into their amps to provide that tubey goodness our ears crave in reproduced music -- all the while producing the tuneful, deep, taut, powerful bass that can only be approximated by the tippy top massive tube amps

well made, powerful class a amps do the same, as does alberto at agd with his brilliant take on ga-n tech - now, powerful class a stuff still produces a good amount of heat, but there are no tubes to replace, bias, burn out, and so on

a really wonderful time to be in this hobby

Class A is the absolute best sound quality and contrary to popular belief they don't get that hot. A Class A or A,A/B power amp paired with a tube preamp is always a good combo.

Belles!

I went from tubes (Cary Integrated) to Pass XA100.5's and have been very pleased with the sound quality. The XA amps do get quite warm however and if heat is your issue you may want to stay away from SS amps that are heavily biased into class A. Perhaps a Pass X series amp will work for you although I have no experience with how much heat they give off. 

Chuck

That’s a shame you’re finding the PL too much. I use an PL HP. No heat concern.

Must be the layout of your space that makes heat build up? With 8 power tubes, they don’t seem to be overwhelmingly hot, at least in my room.

I hear PS Audio BHK as convincing.

This is an often posed "dilemma" by audiophiles...that I just don’t get? SS amps produce heat, too. A typical SS class AB amp is going to be ~ 50% efficient. Maybe add 10 Watts per heater for each KT88, and you get an extra 40 Watts for a typical 80 Watts / ch tube amp over a comparable traditional high-bias class AB SS amp. That’s equivalent to a single, very dim, incandescent bulb. Or half of a person (since a person’s body heat is said to be roughly equivalent to an 80 Watt bulb). Double that for ~ 150 Watts/ch tube monos. Still not much.

The benefit of SS is that there are lots of "efficient" topology alternatives. So OP could certainly look at class D (~ 90% efficient), or maybe a class ABCDEFGH amp like the Benchmark one. But a "comparable" traditional SS amp is not gonna save much heat from a tube amp, overall.

You could save perhaps a few hundred Watts of heat with a class D amp. That’s still not "a lot lot". Are there a lot of audiophiles that have their systems in a non-air conditioned hut in the Thai jungle? 😂 Buy a portable AC unit and keep the amp you want. 

Incidentally, my heater failed recently during a very mild injection of fall "cold" here in GA. I tried running my high-power tube monoblocks 24/7, and it made no discernible dent in the chill. A space heater was vastly more effective.

Seriously, take a look at AGD.

I followed the same Primaluna path and ended up with AGD Audions monos.  You can demo for 30 days.  I run them through a Rouge RP-7 so still have "some" tube sound / rolling capability.

Another advantage of the AGD's is weight.  Getting older it was nice to reduce the heat in the summer and the weight if / when moving.  

I know class "D" is controversial in some camps but I'm pretty happy.  I know the Audion design is like when Porsche went from air cooled to watered cooled but I believe these will be collectable over time.  i.e. - using KT-88 to encase amp section.  

They really sound great.  Maybe not class "A" or full tube but I can't say I miss anything.  Happy class D owner.

Shades of ’The Graduate’

Mrs. Robinson or Elaine?

"This is Benjamin. He's a little worried about his future."

a cooler love story?

...Musical Fidelity M3 amplifiers and they were not as satisfying.  I am using a Rogue Sphinx now in a secondary system...and it is pretty good...

I have AV8 Wave amps, Prima Luna integrated, Quicksilver monos, six packs, M3si, and a Parasound A21. I just ordered a Sphinx because I needed a little tube sound but not the heat or wear of power tubes. Replacing my M3si. Good to hear it might be an upgrade.

I think the OP is on the right track for heat reduction, I'd pick my A21 for his system. 

@mulveling is the heat output that insufficient from Class A to say Class A/B? I'd imagine the fins on solid state amps tend to hold on to heat rather than dissipating it up into the air/surface. I use a portable air conditioner in the room in the summer, but these things are loud as all hell so I imagined a slower heat rafitijg amp for summer would help alleviate heat and cold fighting for space in the summer months. 

@tablejockey I love my Primaluna amps, I'm more curious to try something new and have been looking at more Allnic gear after just acquiring their H-5200 Phono. Then I got to thinking about more tubes and more heat which got me thinking of going to try solid state. My room is an upstairs southwest facing, 9x15 box that the sun bakes all day long. House AC doesn't work, and as a renter we've been forced to compromise with portable AC units in every room. 

just my 2 cents

i would say, qualitatively, that if comparing to running my audio research ref 110 tube amp (8x kt120), if we call the heat output from that amp a '10'

a decent powered solid state class a amp - say pass xa25, first watt f5, belles sa30, pair of schiit aegirs would have heat output of say, a '6'

whereas a higher powered class a/b amp like hegel h20 would be a '3'

and then, the agd audion monos would be a '1'

Do yourself a favor and trial a Circle Labs A200 integrated  hybrid. Purity of tone and beautiful tone await you. The design is both unique and smart. Parts count is minimal with short circuit paths.  A special unit.  

The F5 is a great amp,however it does run on the warmer side of the temp scale. 

@jjss49 this is the anecdotal information I've been looking for. I have a very inexperienced interaction with anything but tubes so this is exactly what I was hoping for. So essentially I'd be able to lessen the heating of my room which is what I wanted to assume was true with solid state Class A. Thank you

I'm glad I have a Big Room....lol.

Budget?:

Speakers?:

Scources?:

Im in my basement. 14x24x8.Ls28se pre, Pl Evo 400 and A21+ splitting duties on the speakers. Mechanical room is just on the other side. Only heat i feel is my wife saying I don't need any new gear. 

I know what my friend,if you love how sound your system with tubes,keep it because solid state amps the majority it’s sounds stident and dynamic but the only solid state amps can sound similar is First Watt but it’s you have a eficient speakers and neutral sound,the only solid state vintage amp can sound like a tube is BK,and Pass Aleph class A but it’s very difficult to get and the prices it’s up the ceiling plus consume a vast of current, my humble opinion keep in tubes or hybrid amps.

I did the exact same thing j-wall. I have a Primaluna dialogue premium hp amplifier with 8 kt150 tubes and also found my 13 by 17 upstairs listening room getting very warm during the summer. After an hour or two the temperature rise in the room was noticeable. I bought a PS Audio BHK 250 several months ago and while the amp does run a little warm it’s nothing like the PL. As much as I enjoyed the Primaluna the BHK is on a whole different level. Bass grip is positively phenomenal. 

One of the main factors in tube sound is low damping factor which very few solid state amps have. A high quality exception to this is Pass amps. They don't use full loop feedback which is why solid state has a high damping factor. So Pass amps interact with a speaker load similarly to tube amps.

I had Primaluna in So Florida- they gen too

much heat

tried Arcam, Peachtree, Rotel   And settled with Rotel A14

my room is small 12/14’ and the Rotel sounds terrific

its Class A for low vol and it’s not warm at all

sound is terrific 

@j-wall  Others have asked - what is your budget? Two names I would add are Ayre Acoustics and Bryston. As good as Pass class AB products to me. Great support from the manufacturers. Very neutral and smooth compared to Rogue Sphinx, which I auditioned before buying a Rogue Stereo 100 for one of my systems.
 

Both work well with speakers that drop to 2 ohms. High current amps with great power reserves and excellent transient response. Expensive. Bryston provides a 20 year manufacturer’s warranty. Can buy used knowing manufacturer will service them, if needed. Many Magnepan dealers use Bryston amps in their showrooms.

Good luck!

+1 for AGD. I had the Vivace and now have upgraded to the Grand Vivace, very happy with them.

Get yourself a Bryston. 

Here's what I did. I had a pair of Dynaco MkIII mono blocks, but also an ST-70 all modified with new driver boards. I sold the Mono Blocks and bought a Yamaha A-S1200. I use the pre out to the ST-70 when I want to use it. 10x13 room.

Ever hear of air conditioning. ?  I have no idea of what speakers you are driving, much less your taste in music, but getting rid of PRIMA LUNA, well, I think you will discover is a big mistake, just for the sake of an environmental condition. 

Considering that PRIMA LUNA designs employ technology that only drives the power output stages at about 30 - 40% of their full capacity is also puzzling. Were you to switch to a very good quality "CLASS A" solid state amp, you will soon find that it too, will dissipate a significant amount of heat. So, if the temperature of your room is more important that the quality of you audio reproduction, then perhaps you should go "CLASS D". (YUCK !! )

PS If you are stuck using a noisy window AC unit., Then I might suggest a portable  MITSUIBISHI "heat pump" which both cools and heats. I've read good reports on it.

the linear tube audio zotl reference 40 tube amp is worth mentioning in this discussion

https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/zotl-40-reference-amplifier

a very special amp in that it uses the berning circuit, without output transformers and runs its 4x el34’s at a very modest biasing, thus very moderate heat (much less overall in my experience than a pass or belles class a ss amp, for instance)

the amp has a wonderful, sparkling clarity, speed and impact rarely found in tube power amps, kind of a ying to the primaluna’s yang in sonic attributes - but with all the midrange and imaging magic we expect from tubes (not to mention that w/o transformers, it is light as a feather... :)

Try (x8) 7581A tubes instead of KT88s. My Evo 400 does run fairly warm but not hot enough for me ever to give a care. On top of that Primalunas run tubes relatively easy so I find this post entirely fascinating.

But sounds like the OP is ready for something new. 

Ypsilon is quality and recommended. Have you considered an integrated from Mola Mola Kula. Class D, and real hi end?

There is also Spec. Spec is a Japanese maker, class D, but sounds like tube amps. Cheaper than the Mola Mola.

Sorry to hear you are moving away from tubes.....SS is nice but .......   

The Boulder 866 has stellar reviews. I’m not sure about the heat generated compared to your PL. Good luck in your search.