Perhaps the most annoying myth in audio of 2025? Talking about Loudness!

Let's do some extremely basic math. If the louder speaker sounds better, even by 1 db, how much louder would Kef Q150 ($300) need to be, to beat the flagship Kef Muon, or even Kef Blade meta?

I prefer electrostats because they can play at ppp levels significantly better than dynamic speakers, which excell at ffff levels.

For a particular speaker/room/ listening spot there is a certain sound level that quickly becomes annoying/abrasive depending on the chosen music. Speakers have the most distortion compared to the rest of the audio chain from source to listener. Peter Walker of Quad was asked if he thought his speaker was perfect. He said no, just that the rest were all so much worse!

If your system has to be turned up to sound good, it needs work.

From my experience, if it doesn't distort or hurt your ears, it sounds better louder. 

Perhaps more "loudness" is perceived as more dynamic?  Does that trick an listener's ears into being "better"?????

I always thought that that statement simply referred to a very brief audition, that if loudness level wasn't matched, the louder one would initially sound better on a very brief back-forth switch...not in reference to longer term listening...

You have issues if you can't get into 80'sdb comfortably, and this with box, open baffle or horns. I'm night listener exclusively, so ambient noise levels at lowest point of day, with low ambient noise levels one doesn't need to turn volume level up as much, and while my modified Klipschorns sound very alive at very low volumes, some music plays best at louder levels. No compression or strain need  be experienced if system and room has been optimized for it.

Do you hear live music much?

exactly,

"jl35

I always thought that that statement simply referred to a very brief audition, that if loudness level wasn't matched, the louder one would initially sound better on a very brief back-forth switch...not in reference to longer term listening..."

I find it true, I make temporary pencil marks around my Cayin's volume control when comparing things here with friends, then we begin, often I can confuse myself enough to forget .....

The volume knob is like applying the brakes. Restricting the frequency. The higher the volume knob the more resolution is allowed to flow. So, the pre-amp volume knob should be as high as possible within a comfortable range. Of course there's a limit where it can become uncomfortable.

I've heard pre-amps that have lots of gain but you can't turn up the volume knob past 9 o'clock position or it's too loud. You're listening to a low level/resolution signal being boosted by gain and I find it quickly invokes listening fatigue.

I never heard that one... It is definitely not true in my experience. 

Many factors come into play when comparing hifis at various loudness levels, including personal preference. So its really kind of a moot point.

At AVS and elsewhere, they love to say the louder speaker will sound better. If a comparison wasn't db matched, it immediately becomes invalid. Saw somewhere yesterday that someone quoted a famous person name Toole in which Toole said the louder speakers will sound better, even by 1 decibel.

I find it to be ridiculous.

In the correct room, louder sounds incredible. It does in mine. However my 70 yr old ears wouldn't take well to anything over 75 db for long sessions. But this way I should have many more years of high quality listening. 70 db is what I shoot for and it still sounds great, just not the being in the concert room type of experience. But I always wear audiophile earplugs for all concerts anyway. Loud music listening is something enjoyed until it results in tinnitus, or worse, loss of hearing. 

WHen a/b testing, you do want same loudness for both.  

That's different than saying louder is always better. The answer to that one is the usual "it depends".

I went to a concert at Boston Symphony Hall last weekend, sitting in row Z, middle of the hall.  Crescendos hit 90dB in the first and fourth movements of Mahler Symphony #4.  At home, I play it quite a bit softer. But to feel the envelopment one hears in the hall, it has to be louder than my wife would like!  She won’t go to Mahler concerts usually.

Volume matching in A/B comparing is important. Usually, louder will sound "better," even by 1 dB. 

However, I'm of the opinion that one should choose volume levels to match what one thinks the source probably sounded like. Tool? 100 dB is about right. Mahler at 90 dB? Sure. For big Mahler finales, with a gong on stage for instance (e.g., in the Eighth), even more than 90 dB would not be too loud. 

But if you crank it up for small chamber orchestras, or string quartets, or solo piano, or acoustic guitar, etc., you misrepresent the source. To my ears, fine tuning the volume as I begin to listen is as important as fine tuning the balance (which is important for getting instrumental placement and soundstage right).

if A:B testing is not carefully volume matched the test is of dubious value. In doing a quick switch, louder will generally sound better.
for longer listening sessions, I think it’s a matter of personal preference and will depend on the type of music. 

"It is said far too often that the louder speaker will sound better." Huh? I've never heard that, or at least don't remember hearing that...maybe it wasn't said loud enough. I have horn speakers that can go very loud without strain (hifi and pro stuff) so speaker distortion isn't an issue around here also since efficient speakers require less grunt from the amp. I listen at various levels based on how I feel but really not particularly loud, but so what? To each their own. And that concludes my statement of the obvious.

The OP is confusing the use of volume in a/b demonstrations (where listeners will often prefer a subtly louder replay of a track) with listening levels in general.

I have never seen in print or heard an assertion that a majority of people prefer louder playback on a sustained basis.

On "loudness", there is quite a variation in the levels that different recordings are mastered at so even listening at a consistent average SPL can require quite different volume control settings.

@ghdprentice I never heard that one... It is definitely not true in my experience. 

Do you use a potentiometer volume control? Most people do.

Your amp runs full open and the voltage must be  REDUCED to normal listening levels. Any type of potentiometer 'applies the brakes' to this signal by restricting voltage and losing resolution in the process. So, as you turn up the volume you are releasing the brakes allowing more signal to flow and sounds better.

A pre-amp with lots of gain takes the 'reduced resolution signal' and then amplies it. You get loudness but with distortion added. Some people like the perception of added dynamics. I don't.

A potentiometer directly affects the voltage level of an analog signal by acting as a voltage divider, while a digital volume control modifies the amplitude of a digital signal without introducing any additional noise. So, newer, more expensive digital volume controllers seem to be prefered in higher end gear.

So, if you use a potentiometer the higher the knob the better.

Potentiometers are limited by having sweet spot where both channels track most accurately, this generally somewhere between 10am-2pm, they also not greatest resolution/transparency. Resistor ladder,  autoformers/transformer volume control has surpassed pots. Digital volume control not superior, in dac bit stripping.

The main point to realise is that that no matter what volume control you use, the less you resist or "apply the brakes" the better.

The main job of a pre-amp is signal resistance with as little degradation to the signal as possible. Matching a pre-amp to an amplifier is important. If you have a very powerful amp and match it with a pre-amp that has gain you may not be able to get the volume knob up past 9 o'clock position and it's blaringly loud. Especially problemamatic with very effiecient speakers. This is an example of a lower resolution, overly restricted signal. 

On the other hand, a lower powered amp used with a no gain, buffered pre-amp allowing the volume to open up to 12 noon position or higher, could sound far better. Higher power is not an indication of better sound and in many cases hinders the sound due to this, "heavy braking" volume knob restriction.

@jl35 is correct  

I have many multi kw amps to hit the transients.i also have a dB meter that frequently is above 100 db but only for a song or two osha states 80db for 8 hours.some of my ribbon speakers are ribbon and very eficient.you can check the spl on many speaker manufactures.i do have some that take 1kw.again the klipsch and my theater are very efficient and can be run by tube amps.but others need big amps due to the compliance of the cones and magnet structure it is distortion and clipping that kills speakers.some crossovers have watt limits as well.i have a crown 12000 hooked to 6 12 inch woofers sounds great.many of the class d are up in the 2k in 4 ohms and are known to shine in base parts express ultimax 2 are rated into the kw range. Marantz,mcintosh,rowland and atmosphere and others offer class d.i put my ear muffs on and have the sound waves hit my chest.so far no cardiac arrhythmia enjoy the music.i live on 10 acres there were 4 bucks and 10 doe I watched today in my back yard. So I can turn the dB up without complaints.enjoy the music and the journey no matter what the volumn.

@mark200mph I said around 72 dbs sound best to me for very specific reasons. As the volumes go up into loud territory,

Distortion of the drivers go up

Distortion of the amp goes up

Bass causing cabinet vibrations to go up.

Room acoustic interactions go up

Sound trapped inside the cabinet causing coloration/distortion go up.

All of these make the music sound worse, and for this reason, I don’t understand the myth that the louder speakers would sound better in a comparison. I'm also quite sensitive to an effortless sound vs a non effortless sound. I believe a non effortless sound is just some combinations of distortion as mentioned above. Don't quote me. 

I believe all you said is based on science and for you your listening level has hit the sweet spot.big kw amps have a higher level to handle transients.they are not running 90 percent of thier spec.power is voltage times amps.it is when you push your amps into clipping you get distortion.alot of my amps have the same distortion from 1 watt to 1.2kw look at the mcintosh 1.25 kw amp spec.they have protection that helps them avoid clipping.some of these amps have 50 transistors per monoblock.they run at a low percentage of thier maximum so low distortion at high levels.class d is very clean.now if I run my chifi amp rated 100 watts that has very little transient it will distortion. Speaker manufactures list thier spl or efficiency for a reason.some like infinity kappa 9 are known to be amp killers.my magico q7 look at jays audio review ,they need power to perform due to thier design.while my klipsch are very efficient.look at the hegel h30a monoblock numbers in the reviews.d sonic has a 2kw amp low distortion under 2500$. What a bargain and great to live in this audio age.you may be having an experience where your stapedial muscle in your middle ear tenses up to prevent your tympanic membrane from moving so much it's called recruitment of the vestibular cochlear nerve,the hearing nerve to logarithmic increase fire rate and can be painful in some people I'm glad you found your sweet spot for you and your equipment.its a great hobby based on science with some snake oil mixed in .like all things in life we just need to find the truth for ourself.enjoy the music nomatter what the level is.

I tend to agree with @carlsbad2. If your system does not sound good at a reasonably low volume level, it needs work. Fortunately, the work doesn’t need to be substantial, and you don’t need high-sensitivity speakers to achieve that.

In my rooms, with an ambient sound level of 25 dBA, 65 dBA is pretty loud to me. I usually listen at 55 dBA during the day and 45 dBA on quiet nights. I don’t have high-sensitivity speakers like 95 dB/1W/1m. To hear my system well at 45 dBA, I need to perform room correction and EQ. The end results are pretty close to the ELC (Equalized Loudness Contour) human hearing perception level at nominal SPL—everything is dialed in. Bass is articulate, tonal balance is right and life is good.

Interesting discussion. 

On my system, it sounds very good around 60db, that is usually my morning listening volume while the house is asleep. The sound is clean, clear, good soundstage, good dynamics. 

When I turn it up, it does get louder, but it does more than that, the soundstage gets much bigger, everything opens up, get better imaging, with the bigger soundstage, much more presence. Everything is clean, more clarity, better seperation. The music has weight to it. You can feel it pressuring the room. This works up to around 100db.

Over 105db, it's still clear, but starts to hurt being in the room, the soundstage is much bigger than the room. But there is no distortion, you can still pick out each instrument. Mids do start to get a big forward, the highs can start to get harsh. Bass however is glorious! The whole house starts to vibrate. At these levels, the treble control goes from 0 to -4 or -6, to tame the harshness. 

The sweet spot is around 90db at my listening spot, everything just goes tougher. 

As an aside, I noticed that the Sound Meter app running on my Pixel appears to be throttled at 80 dB, meaning no matter how loud the music is the app flatlines at 80 dB although the display itself goes up to 100 dB.

Last night I was listening at 70% volume and the app showed 80 dB although it felt considerably louder. I had to turn the volume down to about 55% before the app showed anything less than 80 dB 

Wonder what’s up with that

Floyd Toole is a pioneer and a scholar in sound reproduction. I'll go with what he says. Do yourself a favor and explore his work and that of Earl Geddes.

I think the goal reproducing music at home is to recreate an "experience." We also need to define the elements that comprise what an "experience" actually is. Recreating "all" of the music is certainly the main objective. But there is more. Our multiple sensors react to various stimuli, all of which make up a composite of the "experience." In my view, the ultimate "experience" would be the encapsulation of the entirety of an event resulting in a full saturation of all that touches us. Quantity IS a factor in achieving this. In other words, pack in as much information as humanly possible until we can’t physically, or mentally, take any more.

This is also event specific. A intimate female vocal at 60db may capture the experience to the degree where we have an unexplained desire to smoke a cigarette afterwards. But, "full bodied" events such as large orchestras or amplified concerts need much more. We need to feel the vibrations, huge dynamic contrasts, pressurize the room (as one here suggested), wrap the whole performance around us, and fill up every available brain cell with realtime information. This is true in other venues in addition to musical performances. Auto racing, for example. Putting mufflers on the cars wouldn’t be the same.

This all works up to the limitations of the our bodies, the maximum clean output of the system -- AND, the room. The "room" is a component in that it bounces those reflections right back at us. And, loudness is a factor. The reflections are not only more audible, they stick around longer, too. While a quiet performance may produce reflections, those reflections may decay enough to where they "die" after the first surface. Loud sounds will energetically bounce off that first surface strongly enough to arrive at the 2nd, and 3rd, and .... surfaces. Each time with more time delay, blurring the signal to the degree where it no longer resembles the original.

So, it depends on what you’re into. If the venue dictates -- crank it up, and take it all in!! Just have respect for your neighbors -- and, your hearing.