Hi all, this is my first thread on this forum. I am returning to audio after a 20-year hiatus, and I am planning a new-to-me, music-only, 2-channel system. I'm pretty excited!
Other than my Thorens TD-320 series I, I am (re-)starting from scratch. I plan to focus on speakers, then build the rest of my system around them.
I look forward to hearing folks' feedback and advice during this process.
How I listen: I have a pretty big room, 9' ceilings. I can set speakers in a 10' triangle with about 16' clear behind them and 3' to 6' to the sides. I normally listen around 75 - 85db at 10', but sometimes I like to crank things way up. Also, I can't sit still for extended periods of time so I tend to move around quite a bit.
What I listen to: 30 - 40% blues, 30 - 40% industrial, punk, post-punk, noise, and hip-hop, 10-15% ambient, 10 - 15% various pop styles, 5 to 10% jazz and classical. Nearly all are studio recordings. Source-wise, 75-80% digital streaming, 20% vinyl and (very occasionally) CDs.
Things I like in speakers: A generous amount of fast, tight, well-controlled bass with great extension. Little to no coloration - it can always be added in later through component selection. Fast transient response. Detail. Coherence. Transparency. Great dynamics. I'm OK with "analytical" or "dry" within reason.
Things I don't like: Boominess. Flabiness. Ear-piercing mids.
Here are a few speakers I'm interested to learn more about (in no particular order):
- Thiel CS5
- Dunlavy SC-4, SC-5
- Tyler Acoustics D1x, D10
- Nearfield Pipedreams 21
- Infinity IRS (probably not the Reference behemoths though... realistically)
- I am also intrigued by open baffle designs (Spatial, Jamo R909)
I prefer full-range speakers because I don't love subs with music listening. They're a must in a home theater though.
I love planar speakers for their speed and transparency, but the fact that I can't sit still in their minuscule sweet spot for very long, coupled with their general lack of bass probably makes them a less than ideal choice for me.
I will buy used gear unless something I want happens to be available new at a huge discount. I am more interested in value than in staying within a specific dollar limit and be able to resell at par or at a modest loss if, as time goes by, I find I'm no longer as enamored with them as I once was.
I am interested in your experiences, especially with the speakers I mentioned above, but any and all feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
thiel cs5 very heavy Thiel out of business, hard to drive.
dunleavy way big and poor deep bass impossible to service
near field pipe dreams were okay later scaenas far superior does not work well in smaller rooms
you would be blown away by Legacy focus
very efficient, plays loud, extremely deep, tight bass, great clarity with heil amt tweeters and midrange, huge sound stage, easy to drive, easy to service, works well in smaller, and larger rooms.
If you want to move around the room while you listen I think you might like an omnidirectional speaker like the MBL 101s (most recent versions or even earlier), provided you have the amplifier that can drive them. They check most of your boxes of the things you like in speakers, though they could be a little bright, and they don't give you all of the last octave of bass like an IRS, the Pipedreams or the Dunlavy SC-V can. Love the Pipedreams and Sceanas, but they're actually nearfield speakers and not best when you stand up and walk around. Haven't heard the latest Legacy speakers, but as you can see a lot of people like them.
You should definitely look at the monitor audio gold 300 G5 or the platinum 200 or 300 G3 they will definitely outperform any of the speakers on your list.
I have a room setup very similar to yours, with the exception that it has 9 foot walls and a vaulted ceiling. I am using a pair of Legacy Audio Signature SE, and I absolutely love them. Large sweet spot, great bass extension, and a very wide and deep sound stage with great imaging. I originally started with a pair of Classic HD, but after a couple of years decided to upgrade to the Signatures. Both are great speakers, but the Signatures just have more of everything. Legacy gave me a very generous trade in deal. I would have moved up to the Foces SE, but the WAF factor kicked in! They are fairly large and heavy, but have nice, modern design. No parallel surfaces to avoid standing waves. The dual AMT drivers provide great accuracy and detail. I suggest you check out their website and then read the reviews. Happy listening, and good luck with your search.
As a proud Vandersteen owner I’d suggest you add something from their line to your list. While they are not planar, the drivers that Richard has designed are incredibly light yet stiff so they are incredibly accurate. The models that don’t have a powered woofer (2, 3, Treo) can be a bit challenging to drive but the quatros and up all have a tunable powered sub built in that makes the remainder of the speaker an easy load despite the listed efficiency. I find them to be accurate in all frequencies without being to all sweet in the mids or fatiguing in the highs. When you listen in a store they’ll sound boring compared to a pair of B&W but will be infinitely more enjoyable for long periods of time. The have speakers at all different price points. I’d encourage you to find a dealer and take a listen.
OP, I read your entire post. Your plan sounds much like mine regarding buy used for the ability to home audition alan. The problem I ran into with my plan was that after the first half a dozen, full range speakers I brought home (crazy how every single speaker I decide to try turns up!) didn't sound like their reputation or previous demo.
We're doing this without the help of experienced dealers so we don't know what combination of components will produce the specific playback desired. A good dealer will know thru trial and error what components play well together. I found a shop that is patient, knows I'm cheap and sells me demo gear at or very close to used prices and I get their wisdom, free home demos and often factory warrantees. I pretty much broke even buying and selling online, but I didn't really get to check any of those speakers off the list because I never really invested in reaching their potential.
You know, speaker preferences and tastes are so incredibly objective that, asking a question like this on a forum like this really is quite useless, and really is quite a waste of time, IMHO. Happy listening.
thiel cs5 very heavy Thiel out of business, hard to drive.
Hard to drive yes, but not an issue since I am getting amps to match the speakers. And since I have an irrational fondness for massive monoblocks anyway, any pretext to buy them is welcome
you would be blown away by Legacy focus
These were not on my radar, but they are now. The active version is very cool. Would have to be sourced used though, because
What’s your budget?
Well... How about the projected resale value of the speakers a year from now. That's to be safe in case I did decide to sell after a short period of ownership, although that is NOT my intent. I am looking for speakers to live with for a long time,
Otherthan that, I don't have a hard dollar limit. I do think $5K should buy me what I want in the used market. But I very seriously considered a set of Pipedreams 21 with four, two-18"-woofers-per-sub subs and 126 speakers, finished in the most beautiful exotic veneer and simply stunning. They were offered far north of $5K
Thank you to everyone for your helpful and informative comments so far!
asking a question like this on a forum like this really is quite useless and really is quite a waste of time, IMHO
Well @kennymacc my goal here is to listen to folks with more experience than I. As far as being "useless", this thread already alerted me to Legacy Audio Focus that were not on my radar and are now on my list, so, no, it is not useless - far from it.
Don't have to be wary of Thiel. There are guys up in Boston who are experts on the brand and are deep in parts for all models. Rebuilt a set of CS 3.6 for me and they came back better than new. Drove them with a big classic Perreaux amp & pre. Wonderful speakers that I'd probably still have today but I've gone 100% stand mount. Easier to move around. There's a trade off for sure but for me and my room, its the best formula. Can be had for under $2K too and are about as good as it gets in that price range. Just my opinion
Oh and +1 @stringreenon Vandersteen. 3A Signatures are another favorite of mine. Big, heavy and out of my wheelhouse but they are amazing speakers for sure capable of lighting up the OPs space beautifully.
If you narrow your search down to include Thiel speakers , I suggest calling Rob at Coherent Source Service or Tom Thiel on the Thiel Owners forum here on Audiogon . Rob can answer any questions about speakers or models and the availability of parts . Tom can discuss the models strengths and weakness .
You can also ask your questions on the Thiel Owners forum to get first hand experience information .
Also encourage you to audition Vandersteen Speakers. The Quatro Wood CT would probably fit your musical tastes the best. Re-sell value?? Rare to find these on the re-sell market. Good luck with your quest.
I owned a pair of the Dunlavy SC IVs 25 years ago. At the time, they were an excellent speaker in most regards. I cannot comment about their deep bass because I used them in conjunction with a pair of Velodyne HGS-18 subwoofers.
That said, I recommend that you do NOT purchase them because, if any component fails, true replacements are unlikely to be available.
@jmeyers+1. Forgot to mention in my prior post that I also own speakers from a defunct company, and it’s just not a fun way to go if you don’t absolutely have to — constantly feels like walking on eggshells. In addition to parts/service being a legit concern, it’s definitely not a good selling point if you look to resell them down the road. There are just too many good used speakers from manufacturers who are still in business to mess with this issue IMHO.
Similarly, member @chimpkin advertises a pair of older Legacy Focus right here on Audiogon; unfortunately, both listings are local pickup only and over 2000 miles from where I live in the Pacific Northwest.
That said, I totally understand folks' reluctance to pack, crate and ship large, heavy, and very fragile objects. Guess businesses like TMR saw that gap in the used audio market and are addressing it by shipping nationwide at relatively reasonable rates. Never used them though, so I can't speak to how expertly they pack stuff.
I hate to pile on, but Vandersteen is a speaker I would recommend, especially the newer models-If budget allows.
I heard the original 2’s in the ’80’s’ and never forgot how musical they sounded, I, too, had a long gap between listening and being able to buy a high end system, due to starting a business.
I always remembered how much I like the Vandy’s and was pleasantly surprised they were still being made. Not wanting to spend too much, I got the 3a sigs and, eventually, some Vandy subs. It all sounded great, but upgraditis struck and a pair of Treo’s were near me, used, I got them and was amazed by how much better they sounded over the 3a sigs.
One thing you might not be aware of is that upgrading a Vandersteen speaker can be done in stages. I kept my Vandersteen 2 subs and upgraded to 2wq subs, then to the latest iteration, the Sub 3’s. Everything just kept getting ’dialed in’ with each move.
I don’t know of any other speaker company that allows you to make incremental upgrades.
Of course, it all comes down to what you hear and like to hear. So, take all these words with a grain of salt.
B
PS- I just reread your post and wanted to comment your opinion on subwoofers-
Vandersteen uses a first order crossover that connects to the amp directly which eliminates a lot of the 'guesswork' in dialing in subs. In my experience, when the crossover is set up properly( matching amp impedance), things sound right, right away. The new Sub 3 has an equalizer to compensate for room discrepancies.
+1 for JBL and ATC. Given your musical preferences both brands offer the punch and clarity you would enjoy. JBLs also offer adjustable mids and highs for fine tuning.
Except for our taste in music your journey sounds very similar to mine that I (re)started over a decade ago. I’ve learned SOO much with trial and error.
In the Pacific Northwest there is a lot of really good stereo churn and just about anything seems to show up thru Craigslist
What I learned rather focusing on brands or models of speakers my first challenge was to determine the type of speaker I was looking for. Each type Monitor, Sealed or ported Tower, Open Baffle, Planer, Line Array, Horn has a significant sound signature different from the other independent of frequency response. What I thought I wanted a sealed tower was shattered when I heard my first pair of Dahlquist speakers in my listening space. Even though I had to return them due to a blown tweeter the Genie had been let out of the bottle (box) and I couldn’t go back. I can now only hear the box. Even with over 300 Watts I couldn’t couldn’t make my ADS 1290II towers produce that open airy presentation. I finally settled on corner horns and they do things that other systems even way more expensive can’t do. (There are aspects that these more expensive systems do but to me they aren’t the priority)
I enjoyed the hunt so it took me a long time to get where I am today and I’m not done. If you don’t want to spend a decade tinkering I would recommend visiting as many high end shops as you can and focus on the sound not the equipment. You’ll know it when you hear it. Take that knowledge to craigslist and you can try some pretty esoteric stuff for not a lot of money.
+ for @audiotroy on your list. Your focus appears to be fast transient response, detail, coherence, transparency, dynamics, extended/controlled bass, and natural timbre (no coloration). IMHO your focus is best served by modern pistonic driver designs rather than planar designs. I was also a fan of planar designs until I auditioned modern pistonic driver designs. I find modern pistonic designs also produced better staging and imaging. Look at Vandersteen Model 5 or 7 and Vivid Giya G2 or 3. I find the Vandersteens great but a little slower than the Vivids, my preference. They excell in all areas you list. But you need to audition and choose for yourself because each sounds different. You may choose otherwise. I drive my Vivid Giya G3s with a Burmester 032, a solid state integrated that is fast and clear with the staging, imaging, ambiance retrieval, timbre and liquidity of tubes. Highly musical. Vivids are a better deal used if you consider the definition of a deal as the % new. Also, some companies you list are no longer viable. When buying used choose a product from a company that is still viable.
When buying used choose a product from a company that is still viable.
@jsalerno277and others who have commented on this, I don’t disagree but I feel the issue mostly applies to unavailable made-in-house or customized drivers, since there never will be a perfect replacement. And as far as electronics, they’re fixable.
I also feel that Thiel is in a unique position because while the original company is gone, a continuation company offers parts and service and a sizable support network of enthusiast owners is out there. For these reasons I wouldn’t feel apprehensive getting Thiel speakers, although it wouldn’t be surprising if some specific models had unobtainium parts by now.
Regarding the Nearfield Pipedreams... They have 144 drivers... Custom-made by Ampex in France... and Ampex is (virtually) out of business. But they look so amazing :)
It's like a ride on the Wild Mouse. Fan of active, although I've systems with great passive transducers too. ATC actives are scary good, rub up against the electrostatic quickness without the laser beam effect and are economical considering negated need for matching and financing amplifier(s). Then there are fewer cables involved. Capital freed up.
Midrange of ATC 3-ways is something magical; vocals being the main recipient of a 3" midrange bridging the gap of a two-way.
You stated a 5K range, but then gave yourself away by talking about money for matching amplifiers. I'm stretching that not needed capital to active speakers.
I had a similar issue: planar speakers without enough bass, and subs were just too slow - no bass was better than augmented bass. Or so I thought.
Then Magnepan began selling small, individual bass panels, which they call DWM, and which they insisted would not work with ESL's. Hah ! The heck they don't. I bought two and added them to my 4 Quads - everything was transformed.
They are a push-pull design with magnets both sides, as fast as the ESL's and just the right signal shape for my purposes: 18dB crossover at 200Hz. Of course, you can change to suit. I amplify with Brystons. YMMV.
Thiels are great speakers, I've owned 5 different pairs up to the CS3.6s.....which were the best by far (though I still own a pair of 2.3s). They can be very hard to drive and to set up, but once they are can be beautiful.
I'd look at used Revel Salon 2s, sounds like they might fit your needs
+1 for PBN. I've heard Peter's speakers many times and they sound great with all types of music. They are fast, detailed, and the bass is tight and right. There's quite a few models to choose from depending on what you want to spend.
Also, Peter is a great guy and very easy to communicate with.
You may want to look at Volti. Hard to find used as we owners are usually pretty smitten and cherish them.
I was just thinking that a pair of Razz or Lucera's would sound great in the larger room you described. As the mid is horn loaded they would sounds excellent wherever you are sitting, or not sitting. They are very dynamic for when you feel the urge to crank them. They are also very efficient so you won't need to use an amp forged by Norse Gods to power them. Also if you are into exotic veneer's and speakers that look as stunning as they sound, Greg at Volti is your man! IMO even more beautiful cabinets than the Legacy brand, tho Legacy's are no doubt stunning. (a great suggestion too).
Whew. A lot of advice here but I can't help myself.
1. I have a pair of Thiel CS6 and they do everything you want. I live in central Washington and if you are in the area you are welcome to come hear them. You are way ahead of the average user in that you understand that Thiels are hard to drive. I'm using a Krell KSA 300S which is one of the amps that Jim Thiel used to voice them. I run mine full range with a Velodyne subwoofer covering the bottom octave.
2. If possible I recommend that you attend an audio show so you can get a feel for what is out there. It's much easier to buy used stuff if you have a better idea of the range of options. I have been to three shows and have found that my system holds up to pretty much anything under six figures.
3. One option that I don't think has been mentioned is the Revel Salon2. These are some of the best sounding speakers ever made and they come up frequently on the used market for $10 to $15k. You can't go wrong with a pair of these. They are somewhat easier to drive than the large Thiels but still need a robust amp that will increase its power into low impedances.
4. For a research exercise it would be very helpful to review Stereophile's Recommended Components over the last 25 years or so and see what speakers were rated as Class A. IMO the state of the art has not changed that much for speakers that cost under $100k. A top rated speaker of 20 years ago still sounds great today. That will give you a basis to sort the wheat from the chaff if you are looking for high end used speakers.
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