New speakers for a new start?

Budget would be nice, vintage is cool

My thoughts entirely

thiel cs5 very heavy Thiel out of business, hard to drive.

Hard to drive yes, but not an issue since I am getting amps to match the speakers. And since I have an irrational fondness for massive monoblocks anyway, any pretext to buy them is welcome

you would be blown away by Legacy focus

These were not on my radar, but they are now. The active version is very cool. Would have to be sourced used though, because

What’s your budget?

Well... How about the projected resale value of the speakers a year from now. That's to be safe in case I did decide to sell after a short period of ownership, although that is NOT my intent. I am looking for speakers to live with for a long time,

Otherthan that, I don't have a hard dollar limit. I do think $5K should buy me what I want in the used market. But I very seriously considered a set of Pipedreams 21 with four, two-18"-woofers-per-sub subs and 126 speakers, finished in the most beautiful exotic veneer and simply stunning. They were offered far north of $5K

Thank you to everyone for your helpful and informative comments so far!

asking a question like this on a forum like this really is quite useless and really is quite a waste of time, IMHO

Well @kennymacc my goal here is to listen to folks with more experience than I. As far as being "useless", this thread already alerted me to Legacy Audio Focus that were not on my radar and are now on my list, so, no, it is not useless - far from it.

I cannot comment about their deep bass because I used them in conjunction with a pair of Velodyne HGS-18 subwoofers.

The need for two Velodyne subs is comment enough in my book 😂

@audiotroy was critical of Dunlavy's lack of deep bass too, but it's unclear which model they were referring to.

@ditusa Thanks for the tip on the JBLs.

Similarly, member @chimpkin advertises a pair of older Legacy Focus right here on Audiogon; unfortunately, both listings are local pickup only and over 2000 miles from where I live in the Pacific Northwest.

That said, I totally understand folks' reluctance to pack, crate and ship large, heavy, and very fragile objects. Guess businesses like TMR saw that gap in the used audio market and are addressing it by shipping nationwide at relatively reasonable rates. Never used them though, so I can't speak to how expertly they pack stuff.

Looks like I have some new avenues to explore:

- Legacy (would love to audition, unfortunately the closest dealer is a 3.5 hr drive)

- PBN Audio

- Mastering speakers (ATC, Tyler Acoustics, which I'm surprised no one commented on, Legacy and PBN again, JBL possibly)

- Vandersteen

Speaking of mastering speakers, I'm surprised no one commented on Tyler Acoustics? There's tons of great feedback on them out there.

@pbnaudio I answered the budget question here

When buying used choose a product from a company that is still viable.

@jsalerno277 and others who have commented on this, I don’t disagree but I feel the issue mostly applies to unavailable made-in-house or customized drivers, since there never will be a perfect replacement. And as far as electronics, they’re fixable.

I also feel that Thiel is in a unique position because while the original company is gone, a continuation company offers parts and service and a sizable support network of enthusiast owners is out there. For these reasons I wouldn’t feel apprehensive getting Thiel speakers, although it wouldn’t be surprising if some specific models had unobtainium parts by now.

Regarding the Nearfield Pipedreams... They have 144 drivers... Custom-made by Ampex in France... and Ampex is (virtually) out of business. But they look so amazing :)

The sheer cost of MBLs’ makes my foray into diy Walsh drivers look like tilting windmills with a toothpick

@asvjerry I used to own a pair of Ohm Walsh - can’t remember which ones. I didn’t keep them very long but they were wonderful speakers when paired with the type of listening they were intended for. I googled Ohm Walsh and I was surprised to find out Ohm is not only very much alive but supporting their old speakers. Kudos for making your own!

’Breaking In’ is as much You as the component....👍🤞

Truer words were rarely spoken :)

I think I would lean towards speakers that handle the reproduction of octave 0 "in-house", so to speak; as opposed to subcontracting it to a pair of subs.

Now that ought to narrow down the field.

I’m not a huge fan of subs, though I have a 12" velodyne in my home theater and everyone loves it, myself included. But conceptually I feel that HT and 2-channel belong in different realms that shouldn’t intersect: different gear, separate rooms. What’s good for 2-ch isn’t good for HT, and vice versa (at least that’s how I look at it). Punchy, forward, bright, bombastic antics are OK with HT, desirable even. But even so, I set my sub’s low pass at 50 Hz which is a bit above where my front towers roll off. The idea being to let the towers do their job and let the sub shake the couch. I tried playing with higher crossover points and it was not enthused.

Now, I’m not suggesting that subwoofers may not be gracefully integrated in a high-quality 2-ch system, but I’m afraid that without active crossovers and DSP I would lack the expertise (and the patience) to do so successfully.

@yesiam_a_pirate I share your bias against Wilsons. Same reasoning.

I happened to hear a pair of them today - not sure what model but probably not high in their lineup. It was in a shop, I walked into a listening room looking for someone, and the Wilsons were playing. My snapshot impression, admittedly based only on a 10-second clip of polite audiophile music heard standing up, was that they seemed to do a number of things very well, but in a check-the-boxes kind of way that felt uninspiring and that didn’t compel me to sit and take a better listen. And boy, they were not pretty.

I have a couple of auditions set up next week and I will be reporting :)

The Linkwitz LX521s came up in dipole speakers discussions and they look really, really good, but €27000 is far more than in willing to spend at this point. The kit option is interesting, but the lower price is misleading since no electronics are included so, unless you purchase the Linkwitz dedicated electronics, you'll never get the system or sound that Linkwitz intended. 

Madisound sells the Linkwitz "enclosures" in kdk form for not much money, so that you could theoretically put together a similarly functional system with a dbx DSP unit and a couple of Crown XLSs for oomph. Which, by the way, are NCore-based just like the Linkwitz if I'm not mistaken.

I don't know, kits are by and large the surest way to lose money, at least in the short term. But if I were to allow myself to spend $30K on a pair of speakers right now, I would definitely look at these.

You didn't specify if you would accept a vintage design

@livinon2wheels Vintage, yes, to an extent. 90s and aughts? Definitely. 80s? Maybe, depends. 70s and older? Probably not, although there are exceptional older speakers out there, but they tend to be best paired with music and listening styles they were designed for.

So, Infinity IRS? Would love a set. Big Apogees? Big Thiels? Absolutely. 

The Dutch & Dutch 8cs have impressive specs, especially for their size. I mean, 30 Hz at -1.5 dB in a bookshelf speaker?

They get rare praise from both ASR and Erin’s Corner, who usually don't like anything. Tons of other rave reviews too.

And they look good, if you fork over the extra $2000 over the Pro version, which has identical specs but looks like a $119 Monoprice speaker.

One more exhibit in the case that active crossover + DSP dedicated electronics rule.

I may go audition them.

I auditioned a set of Sanders 10e speakers driven by a pair of Sanders Magtech monoblocks and a dbx active crossover and DSP unit.

Yes, I know they are the exact opposite of some of the things I’ve said I wanted. Their sweet spot is strictly one-person wide. No "social" listening here, although those dire move-your-head-one-inch-to-the-left-and-all-is-lost comments you read around forums are, let’s say hyperbolic. While the range of lateral motion the listener is allowed is definitely limited, vertical departure from the listening axis is worse. When I stood from the listening chair, the drastic deterioration in sound quality was shocking. It was literally as though a motorcycle helmet had been dropped on my head. I was not expecting that, but then again I am tall so my ear level was above the top of the panels.

In my book that’s not a total, complete, 100% showstopper - a person seldom listens to music standing up, after all - but it’s definitely a suboptimal attribute.

I’ll close the negative section with a passing mention that these speakers, while not offensively ugly like some, are no fashion statement either. They may look like Maggies propped up against large wood-clad air duct elbows, but I could live with them in my home. Again, no showstopper here.

Now on to the good part - they sounded totally fantastic. Not only do they have all the detail, speed, transparency, and lack of distortion coloration one expects from good panels, but the bass was really pretty amazing. Fast, deep, assertive and coherent, with good extension into the lowest octave.

I have certainly never heard hybrid electrostatics with such great bass integration before.

Only once did the 10" woofers hint that they do have limits, with a song whose truly grotesque amount of bass was better suited to a parking lot car-sub showdown (not sure who the artist was, it was not from the music I brought with me).

A pair of brand new Wilson Watt Puppies was also set up in the listening room. As a point of comparison, I listened to some of my music on them. They were paired with high quality electronics (better than the Sanders), as they were driven by massive Class A monoblocks. The Puppies sounded competent and had surprisingly good bass, but to my ears they felt uninvolving and dim. Even if they were not broken in, it was still probably a little unfair to audition them next to the Sanders, but it provided a good reference point.

The Sanders can play LOUD. Sanders say that their panels cannot arc and have virtually no power limit, so unlike most electrostatics a person can crank them without fear of doom.

I usually believe that less is more, so initially I felt unsure about the signal undergoing analog-to-digital-to-analog conversions in the DSP unit. But the result is what counts, and the Sanders sounded wonderful.

In summary - during this session I discovered amazingly good speakers, and I also managed to confuse myself further. Am I willing to live with the Sanders’ cramped, selfish listening spot? It’s not a definite no. Are there even speakers out there that rival the Sanders but without its stark limitations? I do want to audition Dutch & Dutch 8c (someone local is willing to oblige for a $200 fee, which is creditable to the purchase if I do decide to ,order a pair).

I am attracted towards DSP-based active speakers like the 8c and Legacy Focus XD, which are basically what the Sanders are, packaged.

Since the last post I have auditioned Dutch & Dutch 8c. Honestly they sounded amazing, but I had a lot of questions regarding features and usability that I couldn't find answers for in D&D's vaguely written website. Some got answered in this thread, including by Dutch & Dutch's owner:

Internally, we've referred to our vision as "high-end Sonos"

The above quote makes as good an executive summary as any for anyone not wishing to read the entire thread.